How to get rid of the shot clock.

StatMan said:
What if they change it so each player has a total amount of time they're allowed to be at the table? There are lots of shots that they shoot in less than 30 seconds, so they could "save up" the additional time from those shots to use on more difficult shots.

This makes sense. Have it automated. Maybe allow for a maximum time of one and 1/2 minute on any shot but if they used the minute and 1/2 shot up, they now have 30 second maximum on all other shots. If they used 45 seconds on a shot, then their next maximum time is 45 seconds. Still allow for one time out though. The minutes I used are just an example, I'm sure there are better times periods to use.
 
vapoolplayer said:
actually, we can win..........we already did.......there is a shot clock........LMAO.

for the most part, the shot clock is used in conjunction with the race to 7 format to ensure that the entire match will run in the alotted T.V. time. thats it, the whole reason, money, and t.v. both are neccesary evils to get the game broadcast on national telivision.

as far as other tournaments, shot clocks are not enforced unless one or both players in a match are taking too long.

you are basically trying to create a solution for a non-existant problem.

the shot clock helps more than it hurts. 15 years ago players were playing STRAIGHT POOL with a shot clock!!! there were no problems at all.........why can't someone play 9 ball with a shot clock?

VAP

I was referring to winning the discussion not getting it changed. LOL


We did get kind of side tracked. If you note in the original post I was only talking about the TV matches. It was just that on several occasions lately I've seen the clock have an very possible effect on the out come of the match and I would have rather seen who could play pool the best that day.
 
CaptainJR said:
I said two things. Secondly, about the spectators. I think the rules of professional baseball need changed so that the batter is out if he hits a file ball on the third strike because I get bored after sitting there through 6 or 7 consecutive file balls. Not! If your there to watch the game then watch and enjoy the course of the game as it is played, don't try to tell the players how to play it, your already out.

Baseball would change that rule in a New York minute if they thought it would help revenues. At least they would in the A.L., why do you think they came up with the DH (which incidentally I hate)? The NBA adopted the 3-point shot and generally ignores a lot of rules to try to ramp up fan interest. Also between foul balls there is still a battle going on between pitcher/catcher and batter, there is something to watch. When a pool player is meditating in a zen like state contemplating the next shot there is nothing to watch. Now if they came up with a way to broadcast their thought process in that deadtime, that would be interesting.
Pool is not a viable spectator sport the way it is now and a shot clock would help that aspect. In general tournament and league play, a shot clock is probably just too difficult to administer, but I think this thread is talking about higher level tournaments with an eye towards drawing spectators.
It doesn't matter to me if there is a shot clock or not. I'll muddle through when I play a real slow player (swearing under my breath) and I'll just not watch slow matches (I'll find a Luc Salvas or a Keith McCready and watch him instead).
 
CaptainJR said:
I said two things. Secondly, about the spectators. I think the rules of professional baseball need changed so that the batter is out if he hits a file ball on the third strike because I get bored after sitting there through 6 or 7 consecutive file balls. Not! If your there to watch the game then watch and enjoy the course of the game as it is played, don't try to tell the players how to play it, your already out.


Baseball is baseball and foul balls are a part of the game. Hey...no problem.
But you sure as hell have players, spectators, and especially umpires bitching or warning pitchers even in the "BIGS" to get their asses moving and not take so much time on the mound. The umpires do likewise for batters that screw around stepping in and out of the box yanking on their jock strap. As well as pitching coaches and managers spending too much time on the mound while someone is warming up in the bullpen. It's THEIR job to speed the game up and keep it at a good pace because everyone can get pissed off there also.

Erwin Rudolph ran 125 balls in 32 minutes in a tournament according the the BCA info on him.

Lou Butera ran 150 in 21 minutes in a tournament against Allen Hopkins in 1973.

Do you think any spectators bitched because play was too fast and they didn't get their money's worth? LMAO....I doubt it.

There's NO WAY that ANY 9 ball game should even come close to those times for running 125 or 150 balls...YET...they exceed it by far.
Get your ass moving faster Capt., it's a sign of old age and will make you old even quicker.
 
drivermaker said:
Get your ass moving faster Capt., it's a sign of old age and will make you old even quicker.

To Late :rolleyes:

Really, I limp a little, but I get around the table just fine. I never had any complaints. Don't know though, If I'm going to have to go up against someone that practices every day, I might have to slow down and think a little. :D
 
CaptainJR said:
Don't know though, If I'm going to have to go up against someone that practices every day, I might have to slow down and think a little. :D


Oh-oh VAP...you better check out some Memorial Day Sales for giant egg timers at Bed Bath and Beyond....LMAO... :D
 
drivermaker said:
Oh-oh VAP...you better check out some Memorial Day Sales for giant egg timers at Bed Bath and Beyond....LMAO... :D


oh shit, don't tell me you're one of those jeremy jones MFer's :rolleyes:

but hey, since you like taking your time..........we could always turn this into a 10 ahead set 9 ball for a few more jelly beans.........and i'll leave the egg timer at home :D
 
vapoolplayer said:
oh shit, don't tell me you're one of those jeremy jones MFer's :rolleyes:

but hey, since you like taking your time..........we could always turn this into a 10 ahead set 9 ball for a few more jelly beans.........and i'll leave the egg timer at home :D


If your bringing an egg timer..... since you practice so much and advocate fast play. That is the spot I want. You get 20 seconds, I get 30. :D :D
 
an argument in futility...

There is no sense in arguing all these different scenerios about
the shot clock. If they make a change, you can be sure that
it will be a minor one, and not major changes, like extending
the extension to 45 seconds in lieu of 30.

To even talk about accumulating shot times, and using on later shots
is clear out in left field, the sheer mechanics of doing something like
that is preposterous.

Fact is, they are pros, and they have to follow the rules. If they can not
abide by the rules, they have to make adjustments to their game.

Amateurs and amateur tournaments are a different matter. Shot clocks
normally are not employed unless a player complains about his opponents'
slow play, and usually that attention has been brought to it will usually
be enough to speed up the player, unless the player is 'over his head',
and just really can not figure out a course of action.

After playing for 43 years, I am convinced that different people's brains
do NOT operate at the same speed. For example, my brother is a good
player, not as good as me, but not far beneath me. He can come up on
a difficult layout, and I can see the out within 3 seconds, he will use
more time, but will see the same out as I originally did. (As captain of
a team and the best player and coach, I would sometimes call a time-out
too quickly in trying to help them prevent in making a mistake). No, I did
not tell them to shot my choice of shots, I would simply tell them the
alternatives for shots, and let them choose the one they felt most
comfortable with, but I also would point out possible problems if they
chose a course of action that was not optimal.

I had another player on the team, just joining league, not a bad shooter,
a young Attorney. He employed good logic most of the time, but always
made a decision that prevented him from running out. This cost him many
games he should of won. I have several little sayings about Pool, and I
used to say them to him to help him 'get over the hump' so he could get out and be a better 'mental' player as well. Well, I haven't played on that team for awhile, his shooting has gone up, the team won first in league, and
he quotes my little sayings all the time to other team members, so I guess
I accomplished what I wanted to, to help him be a better and tougher
player.

I can not though, imagine what all goes through a players head when
taking 5-6 minutes to evaluate an out for the table that takes me less
than 5 seconds. Sometimes it is so painfully obivious that even a
5th grader could figure it out faster than the opponent. Sometimes
I play with professional people, and the logic they use to shoot Pool,
I don't know how they ever make a living .... lol

As far as a shot clock, as they used to say in the Navy, "either get
with the program, or get out". You can not be all things for all players,
you have a norm and that's the rules.
 
CaptainJR said:
If your bringing an egg timer..... since you practice so much and advocate fast play. That is the spot I want. You get 20 seconds, I get 30. :D :D


gotta love when people start throwning the practice time in your face.......LOL.

i can play that game........since you get lessons every week, and you've been playing longer.........with that GREAT stroke of yours.......

i'm gonna need 3 on the wire in 8 ball, or the 7 ball in 9 ball :D
 
vapoolplayer said:
gotta love when people start throwning the practice time in your face.......LOL.

i can play that game........since you get lessons every week, and you've been playing longer.........with that GREAT stroke of yours.......

i'm gonna need 3 on the wire in 8 ball, or the 7 ball in 9 ball :D


LMAO!!!! Guess we're back to playing even. :)
 
CaptainJR said:
LMAO!!!! Guess we're back to playing even. :)

I'm suppose to get the all-star schedule this weekend. I should know then which PP event will be my next one.
 
Just some minor corrections... Statements of fact that may not have been accurate...

Snapshot9 said:
There is no sense in arguing all these different scenerios about the shot clock. If they make a change, you can be sure that
it will be a minor one, and not major changes, like extending
the extension to 45 seconds in lieu of 30.
It's possible to extend the extensions to 45 seconds or
extend the whole shot clock to 45 seconds. Most players have their own pace anyway which is faster than 45 or 30 seconds, so it wouldn't matter most of the time. The exception would be those rare moments per game or match, where the game becomes a little more thought provoking. Under the current rules, this thought provoking element is lost and results in rushed, poorly executed shot, often selling out the game (possibly match).

With the current system at 30 seconds, I've heard of pro players having to have practice sessions playing within 30 seconds in order to get used to its ramifications. If the end result is that it forces these top players to play at a faster rythym than they're accustomed, then it loses something in the spirit of the game.

It's no longer who's the best player, but instead who's the best speed player. Heck, let's just make it speed pool, and adjust the shot time down to 15 or 10 seconds.

Obviously, that would be sillyness, but that's just a magnification of what's currently happening to the top players.

The idea was that 45 seconds would still maintain a good flow, but still allow the players the chance to play to their skill.

Snapshot9 said:
To even talk about accumulating shot times, and using on later shots
is clear out in left field, the sheer mechanics of doing something like
that is preposterous.
Technically that's wrong. Systems like that are already done quite easily.

You can go online currently to chess sites (i.e. www.fics.org - free internet chess server) and play with a shot clock just like you mention.

You can setup the standard time per player per game - i.e. 5 minutes.
In addition, you could setup a base time, and add increments after each opponents turn i.e. 5 minutes + 15 seconds after each turn.

Thus a simple solution, with basic internet connection, is to log onto the fics site, setup the clock preferences and do random moves for each player after every turn, simply to trigger the clock timer accordingly.

Other more elegant solutions are very easy to program.

Snapshot9 said:
Fact is, they are pros, and they have to follow the rules. If they can not
abide by the rules, they have to make adjustments to their game.
Nobody is talking about breaking any rules. The idea is that if there are bad rules, then they should be adjusted. JR is suggesting that 30 second shot clocks are bad.

Snapshot9 said:
As far as a shot clock, as they used to say in the Navy, "either get
with the program, or get out". You can not be all things for all players,
you have a norm and that's the rules.
The question is, what impact would there be if you set the norm to 45 seconds. Would the game be worse and take way too long - doubtful.

Or, would setting the norm to 45 second shot clock, reduce/eliminate the blatantly bogus shots taken in order to fit under the current 30 second time limit? Remember for TV if they really need it shortened, player time between shots can be clipped off by using cutaways. Would be interesting to see a match with cutaways between shots most of the time, than to have whole games cut off, as is currently done.

I and many others in this thread, similarly, suggest the later...
 
FLICKit said:
then it loses something in the spirit of the game.
...
The idea is that if there are bad rules, then they should be adjusted.

Woaaaaaah man...losing something in the spirit of the game?...bad rules?

Kind of like when you lose a match because you didn't call an 8 hanging in the pocket or because you took ball in hand before the cueball stops moving completely?

Sorry, not related to the thread, but I couldn't help myself LOL

peace
-egg
 
FLICKit said:
JR is suggesting that 30 second shot clocks are bad.


Actually, if you want to sum up my point in a single sentence, I'm suggesting slow-play is bad. Shot-clocks are not necessarily the answer but first and foremost, I'm against slow-play. I don't like the shot-clock but I also don't like waiting hours upon hours for the loser's side to catch-up because some nimrod can't make up his mind on what to do every other shot. Regardless as to what people say Johnny Archer or Jeremy Jones should be allowed to do, what would be done if an entire field played as slowly? If the average match took 3 hours?

I'll tell you what would be done, the tournament world would adjust. Races would be to 7 or 5 and the match average time would again be reduced a little more than 1 hour. That's the goal. That's what tournament directors aim for, especially in their early rounds. Slow players cost people money. If this is dragged out to the extreme and an entire field of slow players are present, the tournamnet would inevitably last another day (possibly two!). This would add to hotel expenses and take away from the hostroom's ability to go back to normal business.

The fact is, you're not playing in your livingroom. This isn't YOUR time. It's ours. It's the time of everyone involved. As a participant, you have an obligation to finish your match within a reasonable amount of time for the sake of all those that await the results of your match. People say that players should be allowed to play in their optimal state. Well, I play GREAT when I'm farting but I don't because MY farts would be disturbing to everyone. Farting and slow play are no different.


Like I said, I think the WPBA has it right. Anything done should have the match-length in mind.
 
FLICKit said:
Or, would setting the norm to 45 second shot clock, reduce/eliminate the blatantly bogus shots taken in order to fit under the current 30 second time limit? Remember for TV if they really need it shortened, player time between shots can be clipped off by using cutaways. Would be interesting to see a match with cutaways between shots most of the time, than to have whole games cut off, as is currently done.

I and many others in this thread, similarly, suggest the later...


what shots are you talking about? i haven't seen any "bogus" shots taken to fit under the time limit.

as far as cutaways in between shots.......that takes more money. espn doesn't pay the UPA or anyone else for these matches. in some instances, i could be wrong, but i believe that espn is in fact the one that gets paid.

espn wants to just tape the match, and just air it, with commercials, and the occassional game cut out.

VAP
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Like I said, I think the WPBA has it right. Anything done should have the match-length in mind.

I'm sure that one of the recent times it was the WPBA that I saw this happen in. Remember I was talking about the TV matches in particular. Every WPBA finals match I've seen on TV they start right off with the shot clock. There was no match length involved that I saw.
 
CaptainJR said:
I'm sure that one of the recent times it was the WPBA that I saw this happen in. Remember I was talking about the TV matches in particular. Every WPBA finals match I've seen on TV they start right off with the shot clock. There was no match length involved that I saw.


Yes but if you do away with the shot-clock for television matches, you cannot complain when the producers whittle the match down to a bunch of unsequenced shots. If you want to see a match in it's entirety on ESPN, you have to make sure it ends within a reasonable amount of time.
 
Shot clock

drivermaker said:
It's all actually a moot point. The real issue is TIME. 30 seconds is 30 seconds and 45 seconds is 45 seconds. If a player is taking the entire amount of time wandering around the table back and forth with a thumb up their ass and a look of total bewilderment on their face over and over again for every shot... is it really any worse than seeing them change a shaft in the same amount of time or less. Time yourself for 30 or 45 seconds while walking laps around the table (without shooting) just to see how many laps you can get in. It's a lonnnnnggg period of time in reality.
Think of the time spent waiting for a traffic light to change;-15-20 seconds. No one would agree to extend that time (obvious exceptions). The people who make TV matches are pros and 99% of the time should make their decision easily within 30 sec. It's no different than taking a timed test. The rules are the same for everyone and quick decision making is one measurement of ability. With rare exceptions the best player (that match) will still win. As with everything the bottom line money. Producers may not know about pool (or care) but each second is required to produce a maximum amount of money. Personally I mostly, despise the shot clock but I'll live with it.
 
whitewolf said:
Use a chess clock. End of problem.

For those of us with bad eyes the total-time clocks used in curling would be better... BIG NUMBERS :D

Dave
 
Back
Top