How to save professional pool...no, really.

[The_JV]

I admire what MR is doing. Over the next 15 to 20 years, they may well be able to move American pool over to Network television. But I can remember watching Irving Crane and Luther Lassiter, etc. on TV years and years ago. Why didn't that work. What MR is doing has already been tried and it failed. That feels like status quo to me. Maybe this time is the charm, but there is no good reason to put all your eggs in one basket. What if something else might work? What if?

The critical question is this: how many American pool players are making a good living playing for MR? Do you know the answer? Making a living is not sleeping in your car and eating catsup. OK, say 100 guys are making a decent living working for MR. Again, let me ask the question: what about the other 29 million of us that want some action, too? What about us?

so you want to have a qualification test to substantiate the top 100 or so for sake of an "association", and also want to cut in 29 million or so dead money enthusiasts...?

Who exactly has done what MR is doing...? MR is global.

You've officially lost me.

 

[Boxcar]

Who exactly has done what MR is doing...? MR is global.

So is NBC and CBS and ABC and.......well, you get the picture.

I have never advocated a singular approach. I pitched a path and drew a map. This is a big world and there's room for everybody.

Rory won $1,890,000.00 in one (1) event last year on the PGA Tour. Combined, the top 10 tour players won about 24 million dollars. So far this tournament season, the leading money winner in organized pool has earned about $250,000.00 before taxes and expenses. Combined, the top 10 money winners in organized pool have won about 1.4 million dollars this season. What's Verlander's new contract worth?

Maybe it's time to start asking the Pool Pros what they want.

 

[sjm]

Who exactly has done what MR is doing...? MR is global.

As it turns out, the answer is nobody. Matchroom now has thirty ranking points events in three continents. I don't know of any event producer that has ever tried to revitalize pool in this way.

Matchroom's actions are tending to unite pool across the continents through nine-ball. The extent to which they'll succeed in their business venture has yet to be determined, but their approach is not similar to anything I've seen in my 47 years around pro pool. At the current rate of growth, it's not so hard to imagine a pool landscape in which there is a good tournament in which to play almost every week of the year.

I wouldn't bet against Matchroom and it's superior, visionary management team.

 

[The_JV]

So is NBC and CBS and ABC and.......well, you get the picture.

Do you have numbers on NBC pool viewership in the UK during this last kick at the can you think happened...? ...exactly there were none.

Maybe it's time to start asking the Pool Pros what they want.

Maybe what the pros should be worrying about is what the fans want to see. The "pros" aren't in a position to make any demands. They need a viable product first, personal marketability second, then they can start asking for something.

 

[The_JV]

As it turns out, the answer is nobody. Matchroom now has thirty ranking points events in three continents. I don't know of any event producer that has ever tried to revitalize pool in this way.

Thanks for chiming in Stu.

This is obvious to anyone that pays attention and isn't trying to pitch some other narrative.

 

[Boxcar]

Do you have numbers on NBC pool viewership in the UK during this last kick at the can you think happened...? ...exactly there were none.

What that may tell us is that NBC doesn't believe pro pool is viable. When they see real commercial viability, they'll move and MR will be holding the slippery end of the stick. There is no need to put all your eggs in one basket. Diversify, have fun. No balls, no blue chips.

 

[sjm]

So is NBC and CBS and ABC and.......well, you get the picture.

I have never advocated a singular approach. I pitched a path and drew a map. This is a big world and there's room for everybody.

Rory won $1,890,000.00 in one (1) event last year on the PGA Tour. Combined, the top 10 tour players won about 24 million dollars. So far this tournament season, the leading money winner in organized pool has earned about $250,000.00 before taxes and expenses. Combined, the top 10 money winners in organized pool have won about 1.4 million dollars this season. What's Verlander's new contract worth?

Maybe it's time to start asking the Pool Pros what they want.

They want to be pro golfers. That said, every year there are probably a hundred thousand golfers trying to get to the PGA tour qualifying school and only a couple of hundred get there. Then, about 35 of those who get there earn a PGA tour card. Once these 35 get to the tour, in any year in which they fail to finish in the Top 125 on the money list, they will lose their card and be ineligible to play in the subsequent PGA Tour year unless they repeat the qualifying process successfully.

... and yet a Fargo 350 can get into the US Open 9-ball if they sign up early enough.

There is no similarity between pro pool and pro golf.

 

[dquarasr]

If my name was Richard or Dick. You can be certain I never go by the name “dick” under any circumstance ever. Ever!

Apologies to men named Richard who call themselves “Dick”, but I never met anyone who did that wasn’t.

 

[Boxcar]

They want to be pro golfers. That said, every year there are probably a hundred thousand golfers trying to get to the PGA tour qualifying school and only a couple of hundred get there. Then, about 35 of those who get there earn a PGA tour card. Once these 35 get to the tour, in any year in which they fail to finish in the Top 125 on the money list, they will lose their card and be ineligible to play in the subsequent PGA Tour year unless they repeat the qualifying process successfully.

... and yet a Fargo 350 can get into the US Open 9-ball if they sign up early enough.

There is no similarity between pro pool and pro golf.

One of the most attractive things about golf is its exclusivity. Some amateur from Hoboken can't sneak under the ropes and play in The Masters.
A 350 Fargo can play in the U.S. Open, but what does that do for Pool? Pool desperately needs to improve its image. It also desperately needs to improve its accessibility to the masses. I didn't love baseball until I got to see it for the first time on my Uncle Billy's TV set. If my Uncle Billy had to pay a subscription fee to see a live baseball game, I'd have never seen one.

Pool needs real sponsors who buy ads on TV, just like everybody else has been doing since the birth of rabbit ears. Pool players are not second class citizens. Really good players are gifted athletes. They deserve their chance at national and international recognition and they deserve to get payed fairly for what they do. Organizing can make that happen but there are others ways, too. There is room enough for everybody.

 

[sjm]

One of the most attractive things about golf is its exclusivity. Some amateur from Hoboken can't sneak under the ropes and play in The Masters.
A 350 Fargo can play in the U.S. Open, but what does that do for Pool? Pool desperately needs to improve its image. It also desperately needs to improve its accessibility to the masses. I didn't love baseball until I got to see it for the first time on my Uncle Billy's TV set. If my Uncle Billy had to pay a subscription fee to see a live baseball game, I'd have never seen one.

Pool needs real sponsors who buy ads on TV, just like everybody else has been doing since the birth of rabbit ears. Pool players are not second class citizens. Really good players are gifted athletes. They deserve their chance at national and international recognition and they deserve to get payed fairly for what they do. Organizing can make that happen but there are others ways, too. There is room enough for everybody.

Yes, well said.

 

[The_JV]

But I can remember watching Irving Crane and Luther Lassiter, etc. on TV years and years ago. Why didn't that work. What MR is doing has already been tried and it failed. That feels like status quo to me.

Who exactly has done what MR is doing...? MR is global.

So is NBC and CBS and ABC and.......well, you get the picture.

Do you have numbers on NBC pool viewership in the UK during this last kick at the can you think happened...? ...exactly there were none.

What that may tell us is that NBC doesn't believe pro pool is viable. When they see real commercial viability, they'll move and MR will be holding the slippery end of the stick.

I took the time to paste the back and forth into a single post, as you seem to be lost within your own argument. To recap...: You claim what Matchroom is doing has been done before and failed and therefore is a "status quo" effort. I asked who has done what MR has done and is doing. From here it goes off the rails. Presumably because it actually hasn't been done before and you weren't expecting someone to pay enough attention to catch your poorly formed argument.

Now with that said, I also agree that having all your hopes and dreams in one basket isn't on the surface, the best approach. However, it may help to realize that the only one holding a basket for the eggs to be placed in, is in fact MR. If there were another production company with MR's clout that had interest and the product had enough volume to merit a competition between those two organizations. Then maybe you'd have something. As it is, MR is the only 'game' in town and despite your narrative, is doing more for the game than anyone in the past.

 

[dendweller]

It also desperately needs to improve its accessibility to the masses.

25 or 30 years ago I used to set up to record the very few tournaments ESPN put on and hope it didn't get preempted by something else the deemed more important. I also used to buy AccuStats vhs and then dvd recordings. That was it if you wanted to watch pool.

I can now go onto youtube, search on a player I'd like to watch and majority of the time I'm getting hits. There's also paid streams, some of those being a package deal for all the recorded matches for a tournament.

Last night I watched a local stream of Efren playing a talented local player. When it ended youtube through me into a ring match with Wade Crane, Mike Siegal, Kim Davenport and Jim Fusco.

I'm not sure pool has ever been as accessible to the masses as it is right now. And by the way, the ring game players appeared to be wearing tuxes.

 

[The_JV]

They want to be pro golfers. That said, every year there are probably a hundred thousand golfers trying to get to the PGA tour qualifying school and only a couple of hundred get there. Then, about 35 of those who get there earn a PGA tour card. Once these 35 get to the tour, in any year in which they fail to finish in the Top 125 on the money list, they will lose their card and be ineligible to play in the subsequent PGA Tour year unless they repeat the qualifying process successfully.

... and yet a Fargo 350 can get into the US Open 9-ball if they sign up early enough.

There is no similarity between pro pool and pro golf.

Actually, to focus on the PGA's USopen for a moment. The use of 'open' in the name is purposeful and not window dressing. The whole point is that anyone can get in the main event that we see on TV. I've stolen the quote below from the wiki page:

• "All remaining spots after the second top 60 OWGR cutoff date filled by alternates from qualifying tournaments."

So there is what I believe pool's version of the USopen eventually needs to be. 75% pros with locked in 25% for amateur qualifiers from satellite tournaments. However the age old problem with "what is a pool pro" rears it's ugly head once again. Is a future pool pro simply a guy that joins the player's union Boxcar is pitching..? Or is it a guy/gal that has to earn the right to be classified as such. Exactly like the PGA players do..? I'd prefer the latter.

 

[dendweller]

Actually, to focus on the PGA's USopen for a moment. The use of 'open' in the name is purposeful and not window dressing. The whole point is that anyone can get in the main event that we see on TV. I've stolen the quote below from the wiki page:

• "All remaining spots after the second top 60 OWGR cutoff date filled by alternates from qualifying tournaments."

So there is what I believe pool's version of the USopen eventually needs to be. 75% pros with locked in 25% for amateur qualifiers from satellite tournaments. However the age old problem with "what is a pool pro" rears it's ugly head once again. Is a future pool pro simply a guy that joins the player's union Boxcar is pitching..? Or is it a guy/gal that has to earn the right to be classified as such. Exactly like the PGA players do..? I'd prefer the latter.

For golf, the definition started years ago as, does not make any money from golf. There are stories from the past about players attempting to keep their amateur status while being able to make it to tournaments on their own funds. Was consider low class to be a pro at one point in time.

 

[The_JV]

For golf, the definition started years ago as, does not make any money from golf. There are stories from the past about players attempting to keep their amateur status while being able to make it to tournaments on their own funds. Was consider low class to be a pro at one point in time.

Appears there are far more parallels to pool then we actually thought...lol

 

[sjm]

Appears there are far more parallels to pool then we actually thought...lol

Ah yes, I've often posted that pool as a sport is about where golf was before Arnold Palmer came along, polished it up to make it presentable, and then sold it to corporate America. Golf's progress over the past 70 years is a great story.

Here's a thread I began in 2004 on the subject of pool needing its Arnold Palmer figure to come along. https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/the-arnold-palmer-of-pool.5320/

 

[dendweller]

Ah yes, I've often posted that pool as a sport is about where golf was before Arnold Palmer came along, polished it up to make it presentable, and then sold it to corporate America. Golf's progress over the past 70 years is a great story.

The fact that Palmer's entry came at a time when TV got to the point of being able to live broadcast a match didn't hurt either.

 

[logical]

The way golf commentators have evolved to create a watchable product is a great model. Early golf TV broadcasts were as if they didn't understand it wasn't radio anymore and kept telling us that a putt was rolling toward the hole or a player was selecting a club. Today we get commentary on what a shot means to the match or what challenges it might entail...but when it's time to hit b the shot they wisely shut up and let us watch.

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[The_JV]

Ah yes, I've often posted that pool as a sport is about where golf was before Arnold Palmer came along, polished it up to make it presentable, and then sold it to corporate America. Golf's progress over the past 70 years is a great story.

Here's a thread I began in 2004 on the subject of pool needing its Arnold Palmer figure to come along. https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/the-arnold-palmer-of-pool.5320/

I can't imagine a better Arnold Palmer of pool then SVB. I think we all know there's more holding back the game in the USofA. I really do believe that North Americans are their own worst enemies when it comes to the development of pool into a legit professional sport within their borders.

Too many view the game as seedy and riddled with low lives. Another healthy percentage like the fact it's viewed that way and don't want it altered from the smoke filled rooms with talc covered tables.

 

[The_JV]

Today we get commentary on what a shot means to the match or what challenges it might entail...but when it's time to hit b the shot they wisely shut up and let us watch.

However to stick with a comparison between a golf putt and a shot in pool. The putt is easy to comment on in realtime. These commentators have data on the greens and know how the shot will play from where ever the ball may lie. The only real variables are pace and angle into whatever break the green may have. Pool however isn't written in such stone and unless you're completely dialed in on the shooting tendencies of the player. There are strong odds you're not going to guess their choice correctly. This combined with the fickle nature of pool fans (know it all players), makes being a successful commentator of pool a tough gig.