How would you conduct an independant evaluation of the quality of cues

[JB Cases]

It's funny that we are talking about how things hold up over time. Last Christmas my dad gave me one of my orginal Instroke cases. I had given it to him in 1995 as a souvenir of our early work. This was one that had been made for a customer who didn't pick it up.

Inside were an "instroke" cue that had been made by Falcon and a McDermott Wolf cue I had bought for his birthday one year. These cues have sat in this case for more than 12-13 years without being taken out or played and had been in two moves.

Both cues are in decent shape, very slight warp - tips stays flat when the cue is rolled and sighting it shows the slight warp - the Instroke-Falcon has a cracked buttcap with a chip in it which was probably inflicted on it. - The McDermott has something very strange happening though - the rubber bumper is coated in a white susbstance and it looks as if half the bumper has been eaten away (I should google this to see what it could be). Both cues play good - the Instroke cue has a super quiet hit - the McDermott has a high pitched ting - Neither cue has any rings popping out - the Mcdermott has a ferrule that is not 100% flush but not unplayable. The Instroke/Falcon ferrule is 100% flush.

The wraps are both intact and fine. The instroke has pressed linen and the McDermott has nylon. Wraps are flush on both ends.

Other than the crack in the buttcap on the Instroke the buttcaps are flush.

Just thought it might be interesting to know what two cues were like after 13 years inside a case.

 

[manwon]

There is always "in between" - "quality" is an expansive term. What is "standard" and who determines it?

I stood up in an ACA meeting one year and asked them to put out a poster with their minimum criteria as to what a "good" cue should be. This was around 1997ish I guess - long before I went to work for a company selling Chinese cues. Nancy Hart was proposing that everyone join an organization she formed called the ABM - American Billiards Manufacturers and that every member put an ABM sticker on their cues. I said you don't need that, you need an ACA seal of approval. Who better than the ACA to determine the standard?

But they never did it and likely never will.





This is something that you can only tell over time. I don't know about how wood stabilizers work over time. I do know that Falcon LOVES to use it and their cues feel quite dead to me. But the hold up over time. The use of Nelsonite and other brands of stabilizers was however pioneered by American cuemakers. I bet most cue makers have a "dipping" tube in their shop somewhere.

If you were to come to the Kao Kao factory today, this very moment, you would see a giant warehouse full to the top with wood that is cut and graded and dated. That wood will be recut and regraded several times before it goes into the construction phase. The wood is not treated with wood stabilizer. Nor are the shaft bleached.

So while I agree with you that time tells the story of a particular cue it doesn't tell the story of a brand unless you are tracking cues year on year of that brand to determine whether the quality is improving or not.




Noted. What brands are those? I have never owned a McDermott that I didn't have to trim the ferrule and get it flush after using it for a week. I don't think I have ever owned a Schon that didn't develop a bubble under the finish. I once had 12 Pechauer cues where the joints collars all came off.

What kinds of problems are you talking about? I understand where you are coming from because I once did a lot of case repairs and I often had to fix the interiors of people's off-brand cases when I was just supposed to be replacing a latch or put on new feet. Once I showed them how crappy their case was made INSIDE they often elected to sell it cheap and buy an Instroke. A few people even threw their old case in the trash can AFTER paying me to fix it.

But give us an example of something where someone brings you a cue to repair and you discover something else and have to repair that? A real life example of something that you had to do would be great rather than a hypothetical.

I have seen cues where the handle had a big hole in it under the wrap that was filled with glue and wood chips.

I have seen cues where you take the tip off and there is a hole in the center because the wood doesn't come up to the top of the ferrule.

Other than things like this what sorts of major undertakings are you talking about where other repairs are needed? I am asking from the perspective of the consumer who takes you a cue for a new wrap and you then tell me I need a new forearm? Is that the sort of thing we are talking about.

And I am speaking from the perspective of the person who formerly did some cue repair as well as spent a lot of time in the shops of cuemaker/repairmen Hans Jorg Bertram and Franz Hauber in Germany.

I mean I have seen some of Ryan Theween's surgeries on cues and they have been remarkable. Once John Guffey had to perform emergency surgery on a famous US maker's brand new cue that I had broken the day I bought it. (name withheld so as not to cause animosity)

When he got it apart he found that the forearm and the handle were put together with a wood tenon that wasn't even threaded. John did the repair on the lathe at Shooter's billiards in Kansas City. He bored out the holes, plugged them, retapped the holes and installed a pin, glued it all up and when he was done the cue was FLAWLESS (and we all agreed that it hit great too).

But overall I haven't really seen what you are describing about there being trends of cues which come in with major problems which aren't apparent on the surface but then HAVE to be be fixed. So some enlightenment on this subject would help us all.

This is something that you can only tell over time. I don't know about how wood stabilizers work over time. I do know that Falcon LOVES to use it and their cues feel quite dead to me. But the hold up over time. The use of Nelsonite and other brands of stabilizers was however pioneered by American cuemakers. I bet most cue makers have a "dipping" tube in their shop somewhere.


Not me John, all my wood is allowed to age naturally in between cuts, I don't like dealing with chemicals that I don't have to. I also beleive that wood should be allowed to move if it wants too, this way there are less surprises later in my opinion.



Noted. What brands are those? I have never owned a McDermott that I didn't have to trim the ferrule and get it flush after using it for a week. I don't think I have ever owned a Schon that didn't develop a bubble under the finish. I once had 12 Pechauer cues where the joints collars all came off.

What do you attribute those problems to John?



But give us an example of something where someone brings you a cue to repair and you discover something else and have to repair that? A real life example of something that you had to do would be great rather than a hypothetical.

Everything I stated above has happened to me John, that is why I mentioned those issues in the first place.


Other than things like this what sorts of major undertakings are you talking about where other repairs are needed? I am asking from the perspective of the consumer who takes you a cue for a new wrap and you then tell me I need a new forearm? Is that the sort of thing we are talking about.

John if you told a customer that they needed a new forearm when it was brought in for a wrap I would also like to know why? Please explain further John.

John I do full cue repair in my shop, everything from new shafts, Pins, Joints, through handle and entire butt replacement to complete refinish work of both modern and antique Billiards and pool cues. I am kinda surprised that you have not also had bad experiences doing repairs, well maybe you did not do the level of work that I do on a regular basis and that is understandable.

 

[JB Cases]

John if you told a customer that they needed a new forearm when it was brought in for a wrap I would also like to know why? Please explain further John.

I have never had this sort of thing happen. I have had cues that I messed up and had to repair/replace well beyond the initial job. But I have never had a cue come in with what was a simple repair on the surface and found myself having to rebuild a section of the cue. I can certainly see that it's possible though. If I pulled a cracked buttcap off and found that the underlying buttsleeve was damaged as well then I'd certainly tell the customer that the foundation needed to be fixed.

John I do full cue repair in my shop, everything from new shafts, Pins, Joints, through handle and entire butt replacement to complete refinish work of both modern and antique Billiards and pool cues. I am kinda surprised that you have not also had bad experiences doing repairs, well maybe you did not do the level of work that I do on a regular basis and that is understandable.

I know for a fact that I am not anywhere close to your level when it comes to cue repair/restoration.

Where I am at your level or possibly sightly higher is cue sales and experience with a wide range of cue making methods. This comes from the fact that I have been selling cues since 1988 and from then until now I have been in dozens of cue maker's shops around the world, starting with Joe Piccone in Florida through Joe Gold in Chicago - to Kao Kao in China.

I understand that you do a lot of repairs and restorations. That kind of experience is invaluable. I did the same for cases in order to learn how to build cases. Even now in my shop I have a Fellini, Thomas, Murnak, Porper, O'neil, It's George, J.EF (Flowers), Justis, old Brunswick, and a bunch of other cases which I have thoroughly studied, and more coming.

I agree with all that you have said about wood moving, things to look for, etc....

What I don't agree with is that you can come up with a way to predict what will happen based on what you see in a brand new cue. No one can do that.

I could make a cue with all the visible flaws you listed which was made with aged wood that would not move one tiny bit in the next ten years. You and the entire ACA would not accept this cue as a "good" cue and yet it might very well be the best hitting and playing cue on the planet.

So that's the rub right there.

I can look at a case and say that I think that using nylon that is rough to the touch is bad because it has the potential to not play nice with the finish of the cue - and you probably would not rub a piece of that material on your cue's finish if I handed it to you - BUT at the end of the day there hasn't been an epidemic of people pulling obviously scratched cues out of their cases where the nylon liner can be said to be at fault. There have been SOME instances where the case owner is reasonably sure that the liner caused the scratches but it's isolated.

So I have to back off my fearmongering about using Cordura and rough-to-the-touch fabrics as liners. I won't do it just as you won't use Nelsonite but I also won't be trying hard to bring down my colleagues who do choose to use it.

As I said my Falcon is in great condition after 13 years in the case. And Ernie Chen loves use that Nelsonite.

So, yeah, if you want to test cues then the best place to get them is store shelves just like Consumer Reports does. What the result of the tests will show is another story.

I SINCERELY feel that there should be a comprehensive checklist out there for consumers to print out which they can learn about cues and use to do a reasonable evaluation of any cue they come across. If you manage to create one that is fair and unbiased then you will have really done a great thing for everyone from the manufacturer to the consumer.

 

[manwon]

I have never had this sort of thing happen. I have had cues that I messed up and had to repair/replace well beyond the initial job. But I have never had a cue come in with what was a simple repair on the surface and found myself having to rebuild a section of the cue. I can certainly see that it's possible though. If I pulled a cracked buttcap off and found that the underlying buttsleeve was damaged as well then I'd certainly tell the customer that the foundation needed to be fixed.



I know for a fact that I am not anywhere close to your level when it comes to cue repair/restoration.

Where I am at your level or possibly sightly higher is cue sales and experience with a wide range of cue making methods. This comes from the fact that I have been selling cues since 1988 and from then until now I have been in dozens of cue maker's shops around the world, starting with Joe Piccone in Florida through Joe Gold in Chicago - to Kao Kao in China.

I understand that you do a lot of repairs and restorations. That kind of experience is invaluable. I did the same for cases in order to learn how to build cases. Even now in my shop I have a Fellini, Thomas, Murnak, Porper, O'neil, It's George, J.EF (Flowers), Justis, old Brunswick, and a bunch of other cases which I have thoroughly studied, and more coming.

I agree with all that you have said about wood moving, things to look for, etc....

What I don't agree with is that you can come up with a way to predict what will happen based on what you see in a brand new cue. No one can do that.

I could make a cue with all the visible flaws you listed which was made with aged wood that would not move one tiny bit in the next ten years. You and the entire ACA would not accept this cue as a "good" cue and yet it might very well be the best hitting and playing cue on the planet.

So that's the rub right there.

I can look at a case and say that I think that using nylon that is rough to the touch is bad because it has the potential to not play nice with the finish of the cue - and you probably would not rub a piece of that material on your cue's finish if I handed it to you - BUT at the end of the day there hasn't been an epidemic of people pulling obviously scratched cues out of their cases where the nylon liner can be said to be at fault. There have been SOME instances where the case owner is reasonably sure that the liner caused the scratches but it's isolated.

So I have to back off my fearmongering about using Cordura and rough-to-the-touch fabrics as liners. I won't do it just as you won't use Nelsonite but I also won't be trying hard to bring down my colleagues who do choose to use it.

As I said my Falcon is in great condition after 13 years in the case. And Ernie Chen loves use that Nelsonite.

So, yeah, if you want to test cues then the best place to get them is store shelves just like Consumer Reports does. What the result of the tests will show is another story.

I SINCERELY feel that there should be a comprehensive checklist out there for consumers to print out which they can learn about cues and use to do a reasonable evaluation of any cue they come across. If you manage to create one that is fair and unbiased then you will have really done a great thing for everyone from the manufacturer to the consumer.

I have never had this sort of thing happen. I have had cues that I messed up and had to repair/replace well beyond the initial job. But I have never had a cue come in with what was a simple repair on the surface and found myself having to rebuild a section of the cue. I can certainly see that it's possible though. If I pulled a cracked buttcap off and found that the underlying buttsleeve was damaged as well then I'd certainly tell the customer that the foundation needed to be fixed.


John, I have had ferrules that were not threaded or properly glued / poor adhesives come off in my hand when I was prepping the ferrule to put tips on. I have had wraps that were being cleaned and pressed completely come loose because of poor adhesives and the fact that the tuck method was not done correctly. I have had joint collars and joints come loose due to poor adhesives and not being threaded on in the first place when refacing a cue. I have had inserts in a shaft come loose or come out while cleaning a shaft again due to poor or lack of adhesive, I have replaced butt caps that were 1 inch long and found that they were secured by 3/16 tenon that wasn't even glued only held on by the weight bolt. This list gos on and on and any one who does $2000 to $4000 a month in cue repair can easily understand this. So when I quote a customer a price and take a cue for repair I do not charge them extra because I have these problems I just fix them and the customer never even knows what happened unless I have to make a major change to the cue design.

I am a self taught cue repairman / cue maker, and yes there is a big learning curve from being taught. I am constantly experimenting with new methods of cue construction, and I know I am on the right track because I have discussed my techniques with some very well known cue makers and some have even adopted some of my idea's. I will never stop learning John, because I believe that no ever gets to a point were there is nothing new to learn.

I would also agree that as a retailer you certainly have more experience than me, I have only been in the game for 9 years. But, I do make it a point to stay a breast of all the new products, and I do sell those that I feel are good, along with ordering what the customer wants. Some items I will only order if requested by a customer because I do not agree with the claims made by the manufacturer or I do not like the quality of the product. In the end I will sell almost anything a customer wants, I will tell them what I think and if they still want the item I will get it for them because at that point I feel like I have done my job.


I SINCERELY feel that there should be a comprehensive checklist out there for consumers to print out which they can learn about cues and use to do a reasonable evaluation of any cue they come across. If you manage to create one that is fair and unbiased then you will have really done a great thing for everyone from the manufacturer to the consumer.[/QUOTE]


I do not think that people should have to do that job if the retailer is protecting their customers. I think one of the biggest problems with this industry is that in many cases the retailers cover to broad an area of retail sales, such as all gaming supplies. I think that retailers should be responsible if they sell products that are defective, because in all cases I have dealt with as a retailer I can return any I item that think is defective in some way or because I just want to return it. Customers do not have this option in far to many cases, so in my opinion if the manufacture is doing a good job building cues and the wholesaler is properly inspecting what they sell and the retailer is again inspecting the product again the customer should not see a bad product right? Well this may work in a perfect world but we both know that this does not happen in this manner in our world, and what a shame that is because 99% of all problems could be corrected before a customer even sees the cue.

 

[JB Cases]

I do not think that people should have to do that job if the retailer is protecting their customers. I think one of the biggest problems with this industry is that in many cases the retailers cover to broad an area of retail sales, such as all gaming supplies. I think that retailers should be responsible if they sell products that are defective, because in all cases I have dealt with as a retailer I can return any I item that think is defective in some way or because I just want to return it. Customers do not have this option in far to many cases, so in my opinion if the manufacture is doing a good job building cues and the wholesaler is properly inspecting what they sell and the retailer is again inspecting the product again the customer should not see a bad product right? Well this may work in a perfect world but we both know that this does not happen in this manner in our world, and what a shame that is because 99% of all problems could be corrected before a customer even sees the cue.

This I think is the crux of any disagreement we have on this subject.

I fully agree that there were many cue factories who built cues which were not worthy to be called pool cues. Those factories didn't know what they were doing. Most of the cue industry in Taiwan came from the furniture industry. They used to cut cue parts down to final size in one or two passes just like cutting the leg of a chair.

I went to my first cue factory in Taiwan in 1997. The first thing I did to all their samples was to pop all the tips off with my finger.

But now in the interim they are building pretty damn good cues as are their competitor factories.

So I have no doubt that you have seen all that you described and more. So have I over the years.

But now I think it's high time to give some credit to the fact that most of those issues are over, at least where the big brands are concerned.

For the most part consumers of billiard products these days have it easy to return defective products. Out of the hundreds of thousands of customers we have served this past decade I would say that you can't find 100 people who are unhappy about the way their claim was handled. And I believe that this is true for most of our competitors as well. We all stand behind the products we sell and we stand behind our dealers as well.

So there is no reason to continually piss on import cues in regard to quality.

As to the "good cue" criteria checklist I think that this is in fact something that's needed. I might just make one myself and hand it out to everyone who comes in out booth. I might do the same for cases as well.

I have ALWAYS felt that consumers need to be educated so that they can ask the right questions and judge for themselves and cut through the hype.

As for retailers: Well let's just say that most retailers aren't very well educated themselves on cues. Even in poolrooms most of the staff doesn't know much about cues, there is ususally just one guy who handles the sales and if he's not there then cues don't get sold.

On the web?

The cue I am selling has Hard Rock Maple, Ivorine3 Ferrule, Irish Linen Wrap, Stainless Steel Joint, Meets Billiard Congress of America Specification, Has a Tiger Tip, Phenolic Buttcap, 3x8/10 Joint Pin. It's a great cue isn't it?

So yeah, I think that somebody somewhere should publish a STANDARD for what makes a good cue. The question is WHO? Who gets to do this and can they do it in a fair way?

Do we really want it?

Is this one of those be careful what you wish for because you may get it type of things?

When I bought my last car I spent months researching to narrow down the list and when I settled on the model I bought I already knew just about everything there was to know about it before I ever got in it. Checklists for buying cars abound on the web.

Why aren't there any for cues?

But even without it I still contend that it's difficult to buy a 'bad' cue these days if you go to the web or to a real retailer. Hell Wal Mart even has Schon cues listed on their website along side a lot of other name brands. Go into a Wal Mart store and you have a better than even chance of getting a Chinese cue made to the standards of 1995 but buy on WalMart.com and you have a 90% chance of ending up with a good cue.

Rambling again. - I am going to play some pool!

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

People all see, hear, and feel differently. IMHO they is no way to say this is BEST of Anything for anyone other than yourself.

IMHO there are NO MAGIC CUES, TIPS, or SHAFTS it comes down to what you like, and what works best for you.


Fit, & finish came be compared, but IMHO "HIT" is like fight over the BEST of anything be it German, or Hamburgers. It is a very personal thing.

I know people who think Taco Bell is Gourmet Mexican food, it is not too me!

 

[JoeyInCali]

People all see, hear, and feel differently. IMHO they is no way to say this is BEST of Anything for anyone other than yourself.

IMHO there are NO MAGIC CUES, TIPS, or SHAFTS it comes down to what you like, and what works best for you.


Fit, & finish came be compared, but IMHO "HIT" is like fight over the BEST of anything be it German, or Hamburgers. It is a very personal thing.

I know people who think Taco Bell is Gourmet Mexican food, it is not too me!

We are all smarter after reading that.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Jim Rempe won titles with a Meucci!

 

[manwon]

We are all smarter after reading that.

:thumbup::smash:k::killingme::bow-down::grin-angelic:

Dam Joey, I just spit coffee all over my monitor!!!!!!!

 

[Roger Long]

I'd have to applaud your efforts one way or the other, but...
Exactly what is the end purpose for this analysis? Likely that the cues you'd look at would be of little interest to me. Do you propose to evaluate every brand & major model iteration of cue in the "current" under $350 production market? Does this market support that level of scrutiny? How do you fund the kind of program you describe? What tangible insight would you expect to be able to provide in the end that would markedly benefit a buyer, toward a purchase, based on their preference criteria, that isn't already rather widely available to those who seek it out. This market niche - large though it may be - is primarily populated by those who don't know what makes for a cue package they like, or aren't particularly discerning in precisely finding it on a cost per point of preference basis.
Just seems like you're heading down a long & endless road that doesn't lead to enough learning to support the expense.
Just sayin'...

Good post, Chris, and it's just what I was thinking, as well.

Plus, I would like to add that after 17 years of building cues I have finally figured out how to put one together that gives me the exact hit I have been looking for all this time. It may not be the hit for virtually everyone, but I know there will be plenty who will absolutely love it! On the outside, my cues look like they are constructed from the same materials, and the same way, that most other cues are made. But I have made some changes from the norm - most of them being internal - and I am in no hurry to tell the rest of the world exactly what those differences are. If my cues sell successfully, I know that someone will eventually buy one with the intention of tearing it apart to see how it is made, and then possibly copying it. I can live with that because I know that's how business works. But I would not appreciate a testing agency throwing everything out there to everyone for free - and especially before I can even get a head start!

Roger

 

[manwon]

Good post, Chris, and it's just what I was thinking, as well.

Plus, I would like to add that after 17 years of building cues I have finally figured out how to put one together that gives me the exact hit I have been looking for all this time. It may not be the hit for virtually everyone, but I know there will be plenty who will absolutely love it! On the outside, my cues look like they are constructed from the same materials, and the same way, that most other cues are made. But I have made some changes from the norm - most of them being internal - and I am in no hurry to tell the rest of the world exactly what those differences are. If my cues sell successfully, I know that someone will eventually buy one with the intention of tearing it apart to see how it is made, and then possibly copying it. I can live with that because I know that's how business works. But I would not appreciate a testing agency throwing everything out there to everyone for free - and especially before I can even get a head start!

Roger

Roger, I also build cues and my techniques are also my own so I do understand how you feel. But, this thread is more about quality between American made products and Imported products. While obviously imports have improved over the last 40 years and they are a value for the dollars spent in my opinion they still have a ways to go before they reach the quality of MOST American made cues. John and I have had this debate many times and this thread is a result of one of our debates. I have been doing a large volume of repairs for around 6 years and I know that anyone doing what I do has had similar experiences to mine.

Thanks for your post Roger

 

[Roger Long]

Roger, I also build cues and my techniques are also my own so I do understand how you feel. But, this thread is more about quality between American made products and Imported products. While obviously imports have improved over the last 40 years and they are a value for the dollars spent in my opinion they still have a ways to go before they reach the quality of MOST American made cues. John and I have had this debate many times and this thread is a result of one of our debates. I have been doing a large volume of repairs for around 6 years and I know that anyone doing what I do has had similar experiences to mine.

Thanks for your post Roger

I guess I misunderstood what was being proposed. Sorry. :embarrassed2:

Roger

 

[measureman]

Roger, I also build cues and my techniques are also my own so I do understand how you feel. But, this thread is more about quality between American made products and Imported products. While obviously imports have improved over the last 40 years and they are a value for the dollars spent in my opinion they still have a ways to go before they reach the quality of MOST American made cues. John and I have had this debate many times and this thread is a result of one of our debates. I have been doing a large volume of repairs for around 6 years and I know that anyone doing what I do has had similar experiences to mine.

Thanks for your post Roger

Just curious as which American made production cues in your opinion are better made then the imports and which are on par or worse.
I'm not trying to start a fight but you know more about cue construction then I do.

 

[manwon]

Just curious as which American made production cues in your opinion are better made then the imports and which are on par or worse.
I'm not trying to start a fight but you know more about cue construction then I do.

In my opinion, Meucci cues would be at the bottom of all cues made in the USA, in fact I would even say that many imports even surpass the quality of Meucci cues today and that is really a shame.

I think that the highest quality import cues being made today are made in Japan and the brand name is Mezz. In my opinion there is not another import and even many American made production cues that can touch the quality of Mezz cues.

For cues made in China I would say again in my opinion, that Lucasi brand imports are some of the best production cues made in the $150 to $500 price range. These cues are imported by Cue and Case sales located in Florida and they have consistently lead the imports with their Players, Dave Pearson, and many other brands that they import.

Take Care

 

[JB Cases]

In my opinion, Meucci cues would be at the bottom of all cues made in the USA, in fact I would even say that many imports even surpass the quality of Meucci cues today and that is really a shame.

I think that the highest quality import cues being made today are made in Japan and the brand name is Mezz. In my opinion there is not another import and even many American made production cues that can touch the quality of Mezz cues.

For cues made in China I would say again in my opinion, that Lucasi brand imports are some of the best production cues made in the $150 to $500 price range. These cues are imported by Cue and Case sales located in Florida and they have consistently lead the imports with their Players, Dave Pearson, and many other brands that they import.

Take Care

I am sure Kaz Miki will be happy to hear your statement as to the quality of the Mezz cues. His factory was started by his father some 50 years ago and they were the ones who made all the Adams brands of cues for a long long time. Kaz is now doing some very high end cues as well.

Kaz also helped in the design of the Fury line of cues, which are made in China and is one of the cornerstones of the brand.

Cue and Case paid Bill Stroud of Josswest a lot of money to go to Taican and teach them how to build cues. Prior to Bill's involvement they couldn't even center a hole.

There are two factories in China who are capable of producing very good cues and these two factories produce the majority of pool cues made in the world. Taican - produces Lucasi and Player, Kao Kao - produces Fury and the majority of import brands other than Lucasi/Players.

When I was coming up - and even today - I evaluate a cue first and foremost on one simple criteria - would I use it to gamble with? If yes then it's a good cue - to me.

I can honestly and without reservation say that I would be very confident to go into our warehouse and pick any import cue that weighs around 19oz and go straight to the pool room and gamble with it. Now that's just me and maybe this is a fool's way to think about it. I am not exactly known for booking mostly winners. But the point is that these cues ARE now good enough to play good pool with.

I have seen enough players pick up a Fury and hit some balls and go "what is this cue?" meaning that it hits good - to not have faith in them.

I haven't made it a habit of bandsawing or x-raying cues from all makers so I don't know how every cue out there is constructed internally.

I will say this, Kao Kao HAS bought and deconstructed just about every major brand. They KNOW how the cues are constructed. In addition they have received advice and training from top cue makers and top factories.

The cues that they are making NOW are as good as any other production cue in the world in their price class. In my opinion that is.

Certainly it wasn't always this way. But after 30 years you'd hope that they learned a thing or two. Which is why I say that we can tape over the brand and let people try them out in an independent test and I am quite confident that our brands will do well.

P.S. Dave Pearson also has cues made by Kao Kao.

 

[manwon]

I am sure Kaz Miki will be happy to hear your statement as to the quality of the Mezz cues. His factory was started by his father some 50 years ago and they were the ones who made all the Adams brands of cues for a long long time. Kaz is now doing some very high end cues as well.

Kaz also helped in the design of the Fury line of cues, which are made in China and is one of the cornerstones of the brand.

Cue and Case paid Bill Stroud of Josswest a lot of money to go to Taican and teach them how to build cues. Prior to Bill's involvement they couldn't even center a hole.

There are two factories in China who are capable of producing very good cues and these two factories produce the majority of pool cues made in the world. Taican - produces Lucasi and Player, Kao Kao - produces Fury and the majority of import brands other than Lucasi/Players.

When I was coming up - and even today - I evaluate a cue first and foremost on one simple criteria - would I use it to gamble with? If yes then it's a good cue - to me.

I can honestly and without reservation say that I would be very confident to go into our warehouse and pick any import cue that weighs around 19oz and go straight to the pool room and gamble with it. Now that's just me and maybe this is a fool's way to think about it. I am not exactly known for booking mostly winners. But the point is that these cues ARE now good enough to play good pool with.

I have seen enough players pick up a Fury and hit some balls and go "what is this cue?" meaning that it hits good - to not have faith in them.

I haven't made it a habit of bandsawing or x-raying cues from all makers so I don't know how every cue out there is constructed internally.

I will say this, Kao Kao HAS bought and deconstructed just about every major brand. They KNOW how the cues are constructed. In addition they have received advice and training from top cue makers and top factories.

The cues that they are making NOW are as good as any other production cue in the world in their price class. In my opinion that is.

Certainly it wasn't always this way. But after 30 years you'd hope that they learned a thing or two. Which is why I say that we can tape over the brand and let people try them out in an independent test and I am quite confident that our brands will do well.

P.S. Dave Pearson also has cues made by Kao Kao.

Thanks for all the information John, I am sure many will appreciate it and would have never been aware of any of it.:smile:

 

[LGSM3]

i think

it all boils down to opinions of which can always be swayed, especially when theres always someone to benefit from a transaction. Maybe the only fair way to do it would be to program a robot to evaluate with pre-determined criteria

 

[JoeyInCali]

it all boils down to opinions of which can always be swayed, especially when theres always someone to benefit from a transaction. Maybe the only fair way to do it would be to program a robot to evaluate with pre-determined criteria

True.
Craig's biased.
He hordes American made cues.