How would you handle this Foul situation?

EagleMan said:
Right! But lots of fouls can't be suspected in advance. Shooter plays a HARD cross-side bank. OB JUMPS off the playing surface...hops to the opposite rail...leaves the playing surface again and lands on top of the rail and would have gone OFF the table had it not hit a cube of chalk.

But DID IT hit the chalk?

In the same category are miscues which most often surprise EVERYONE...including the shooter...obviously.

It's really pretty simple. If there is a disagreement between the players, they call in the AR or the TD and very calmly explain the situation and ask for a ruling.

If one of the players doesn't remain calm it will probably be to HIS DISadvantage.

AND the TD can eject any troublemaker from the entire tournament for unsportsmanlike conduct...so I would HOPE the other guy gets his shorts all up in a bunch.

AND...since I live in Idaho, if dude gets too pissy and if he's too big to deal with under normal circumstances, I could UNconceal my legally concealed
.25 semi-auto which would likely restore a sense of politeness in all concerned.*

Of course, I would NOT threaten him with it. That would be both unsportsmanlike conduct and a FELONY. But it is LEGAL to carry an exposed gun and there is no pool rule that says you cannot.

(For that very reason...there is NO "road rage" around here. Everyone is VERY polite).

(-:

EagleMan

*By the way...while Idaho has among the least restrictive gun laws in the country, only 9 states have a lower gun-related homicide rate than we do. And our rate is HALF of the rate in New York state which, including NYC, has among the most restrictive gun laws in America.

I'm just sayin'.
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My only problem is in the case above the TD didn't see the shot. How can he rule if it was a double hit or not without actually seeing what happened? I agree that a lot of situations can come up where you need the TD but I don't think this is one. The opponent should be resposible for having somebody watch the shot.
 
TheNewSharkster said:
I thought most variations of the rules agree that the call goes to the shooter. I might be wrong. I play APA, local tournaments and some occasion action. In all three we play the call goes to the shooter. Any shots that are close we get a unbiased 3rd party to watch before the shot is taken.
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I don't mean to be argumentative and have said that LOCAL rules and and do trump standard rule sets...but the APA rules on fouls (page 6.) state that ONLY the player or Team Captain may officially call a foul. So the foul call automatically going to the shooter is not provided in the APA rules...that I could find.

Again, I suggest that any such rule is LOCAL.

EagleMan
 
EagleMan said:
Certainly a gentlemanly response but not a correct one. Again, we can only assume there is an area ref or TD but if there is, continuing to shoot while a dispute is in progress would, itself, be a foul.

(-:

EagleMan
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If your talking and i'm shooting there is no dispute. Show me where it would be a foul.
 
EagleMan said:
I don't mean to be argumentative and have said that LOCAL rules and and do trump standard rule sets...but the APA rules on fouls (page 6.) state that ONLY the player or Team Captain may officially call a foul. So the foul call automatically going to the shooter is not provided in the APA rules...that I could find.

Again, I suggest that any such rule is LOCAL.

EagleMan
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No worries. I will find it after lunch :)
 
TheNewSharkster said:
My only problem is in the case above the TD didn't see the shot. How can he rule if it was a double hit or not without actually seeing what happened? I agree that a lot of situations can come up where you need the TD but I don't think this is one. The opponent should be resposible for having somebody watch the shot.
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The rules are FAR from perfect...as another similar thread proved without doubt.

But the rules are the rules and in FACT the TD is the highest authority whose decision is FINAL and he CAN make a ruling on a purported foul he didn't see.

In reaching that decision, he can consult both players or ANYONE ELSE IN THE BUILDING in order to form a decision.

For better or worse, that's the rule.

(-:

EagleMan
 
TheNewSharkster said:
I am not saying you never need to call the TD over. In this situation it should be done before the shot, not after.

I am guessing that the call goes to the shooter. If that is true it doesn't make any sense to pause the game for a call from a person that didn't see the shot. The shooter said he made a legal hit and a bystander thought it was a foul.
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The shot going to the shooter is intended for 'close hit' situations more than "he-said-she-said" situations, but it does come in handy for the latter too =)

Even if you're POSITIVE you're right... if there's a dispute, you can't just wave your hand and say "According to the rules I'm good to go, so this discussion is over." You must get the dispute resolved before attempting another shot. I dunno why you're hung up on the 'delay' this would require. It's five minutes and it prevents future conflict and hard feelings.

Bear in mind also that if HE asks for a TD, it's a foul if you choose to shoot anyway (more BCAPL rules):

2. If your opponent requests that play be stopped in order to summon a referee or other
event official, you must acknowledge and honor that request. After play has stopped, it is
a foul if you take any stroke or shot until a referee authorizes you to shoot.
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CreeDo said:
The shot going to the shooter is intended for 'close hit' situations more than "he-said-she-said" situations, but it does come in handy for the latter too =)

Even if you're POSITIVE you're right... if there's a dispute, you can't just wave your hand and say "According to the rules I'm good to go, so this discussion is over." You must get the dispute resolved before attempting another shot. I dunno why you're hung up on the 'delay' this would require. It's five minutes and it prevents future conflict and hard feelings.

Bear in mind also that if HE asks for a TD, it's a foul if you choose to shoot anyway (more BCAPL rules):
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I am not disputing that the player has a right to call over the TD. I am only saying that it makes no sense given the example in this thread. I need to go back and read the original post but I was under the impression that we were talking about two balls close together and shooting player didn't believe a double hit happened.
 
decent dennis said:
If your talking and i'm shooting there is no dispute. Show me where it would be a foul.
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Depends on what I'm talking ABOUT! If I'm suggesting that you committed a foul and you disagree, then it would be unsportsmanlike conduct for you to just continue shooting.

6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
(a) distracting the opponent;
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing;
(d) continuing to play after a foul has been called or play has been suspended;

I guess I would add to my other comments in this thread where lots of tough talk and actions are suggested, that the RULES are specifically supposed to make that sort of thing unnecessary.

Trouble is, there are lots of "local rules" and even well intentioned people can and do dispute what a given rules means...or if there is one...as other threads have demonstrated.

Probably a good idea to have a copy of whatever rules you are supposed to be playing by in you cue case.

(-:

EagleMan
 
TheNewSharkster said:
I am not disputing that the player has a right to call over the TD. I am only saying that it makes no sense given the example in this thread. I need to go back and read the original post but I was under the impression that we were talking about two balls close together and shooting player didn't believe a double hit happened.
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The sense is that the TD can ask ANY WITNESS to say what they saw. The TD doesn't HAVE to rely on such statements...some of which may conflict.

But the REAL sense is that the TD's decision is FINAL and the players don't have to adopt their Ninja stances to resolve the issue.

But if I was the TD, I would first ask the opponent if HE PERSONALLY SAW the foul. If he did not...while I could ask for witnesses, I would probably rule for the shooter without going any further since he could have and SHOULD have been in a position to see the foul himself.

But in such instances, the TD is a DICTATOR and his decision is LAW.

And that's how it SHOULD be. You just HAVE to have someone who has the final say...right or wrong...or chaos is the alternative.

(-:

EagleMan
 
EagleMan said:
The sense is that the TD can ask ANY WITNESS to say what they saw. The TD doesn't HAVE to rely on such statements...some of which may conflict.

But the REAL sense is that the TD's decision is FINAL and the players don't have to adopt their Ninja stances to resolve the issue.

But if I was the TD, I would first ask the opponent if HE PERSONALLY SAW the foul. If he did not...while I could ask for witnesses, I would probably rule for the shooter without going any further since he could have and SHOULD have been in a position to see the foul himself.

But in such instances, the TD is a DICTATOR and his decision is LAW.

And that's how it SHOULD be. You just HAVE to have someone who has the final say...right or wrong...or chaos is the alternative.

(-:

EagleMan
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I was a TD for a weekly tourny and still am TD on occasion. As a TD I cannot determine if the foul happened or not if I didn't watch the shot. Also, I will never ask if anybody witnessed the shot because the person who chimes in could be biased or unqualified.

I leave close hits up to the players to decide with the underlining rule that the call goes to the shooter. I mean it needs to go one way or the other. If it doesn't then you end up having somebody making a ruling on a shot they didn't watch. I always tell players to have a 3rd party watch any shot where the cue ball is close to the OB.

The only time a problem comes up with the call going to the shooter is if a person fouls a shot where you wouldn't think to have a 3rd party watch and then claims it was legal. That falls into the realm of unsportman like conduct which is another can of worms.
 
TheNewSharkster said:
I was a TD for a weekly tourny and still am TD on occasion. As a TD I cannot determine if the foul happened or not if I didn't watch the shot. Also, I will never ask if anybody witnessed the shot because the person who chimes in could be biased or unqualified.

I leave close hits up to the players to decide with the underlining rule that the call goes to the shooter. I mean it needs to go one way or the other. If it doesn't then you end up having somebody making a ruling on a shot they didn't watch. I always tell players to have a 3rd party watch any shot where the cue ball is close to the OB.

The only time a problem comes up with the call going to the shooter is if a person fouls a shot where you wouldn't think to have a 3rd party watch and then claims it was legal. That falls into the realm of unsportman like conduct which is another can of worms.
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Of course as a TD and therefore a Dictator regarding foul calls you can and should approach that situation any way you want. I was just pointing out that there is no WPA/BCA rule stating that disputes go to the shooter as there apparently is in APA rules.

And, the TDs CAN make the calls themselves without having personally witnessed a shot.

Tell ya what...if Johnny Archer is sweating the match and I asked him if he saw the shot and to tell me if he thought there was/wasn't a foul...I would rule on that "evidence" in a heartbeat.

That also goes for ANYONE on the rail who I think is A) unbiased and B) knows what the hell he's talking about. As TD...what I would want most of all is for the CORRECT call to be made...not necessarily the easiest one.

(-:

EagleMan
 
EagleMan said:
Of course as a TD and therefore a Dictator regarding foul calls you can and should approach that situation any way you want. I was just pointing out that there is no WPA/BCA rule stating that disputes go to the shooter as there apparently is in APA rules.

And, the TDs CAN make the calls themselves without having personally witnessed a shot.

Tell ya what...if Johnny Archer is sweating the match and I asked him if he saw the shot and to tell me if he thought there was/wasn't a foul...I would rule on that "evidence" in a heartbeat.

That also goes for ANYONE on the rail who I think is A) unbiased and B) knows what the hell he's talking about. As TD...what I would want most of all is for the CORRECT call to be made...not necessarily the easiest one.

(-:

EagleMan
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I tried to see if the BCA had a rule about who gets the call but I can't find it. Maybe a BCA member can clarify this :confused:

Back to the TD making the call.... yes he can make any call he would like. If it were me in this situation I would ask the shooter if he fouled. If he said 'No' I would give him the benefit of the doubt. The only time I would consider calling foul on the shooter (without watching the shot) is if I was under the impression he was trying to take advantage of the rules.

I don't care if the witness is the pope, JA or Obama. I don't know if they have a stake in the game or not. Obviously JA would be qualified but is he unbiased? I am not trying to take a shot at JA... just pointing out how flimsy asking people not involved in the game for an opinion can be.

I think we have derailed this topic a little but I find the conversation interesting :)
 
The more I think about this, the more I........

rrick33 said:
You're in a local tournament for small money....less than $200 with BCA rules.
You're playing someone you've played many times before and it has always been very competitive....with subtle undertones of annomosity on his part.

You take a shot and pocket a ball.

You walk around the table for 20-30 seconds sizing up the next shot and before you can hit the next shot, your opponent asks if you double tapped the cue ball on the previous shot. You inform him that you did not and then he aggressively accuses you of lying and commiting the foul.

You are unaware of any foul but apparently a friend of your opponent told him that you double tapped the cue ball while executing the previous shot. Your opponent apparently did not see a foul but truly believes his friend. His friend is a 20 year old kid whos opinion and/or vision I would not hold as highly reliable.

You had no sensation of a double hit and believe it to be a legal shot but your opponent is convinced you are cheating him and he's making a big scene.

This actually happened to me...I was the shooter.

How would you handle this situation?
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Based upon the "history" between the two players, I would surmise that the other guy is itching to get under your/my skin and his belated calling of the foul is more likey a case of unsportsmanlike conduct and I would tell them so just after I tell him, "No, I did not foul. Your young friend must have been mistaken.... We all make mistakes. Would you like to get the tournament director?" I'm not about to get the tournament director when he's the one doing the complaining and the accusing.

This is a small stakes tournament so there are most likely no referees.

I might also add, rather loudly, but politely, "Is it my imagination or not, that each time we play each other, you seem to be irritated in some manner or another?"

Most people know these kind of people and they are always trying to get an edge and they don't care if it is unsportsmanlike conduct or not.

If he's been around the pool room very long, he already knows that a tournament director will side with the shooter in this case. He also knows that his type of sharking is designed to make you feel guilty whether you commited a foul or not, to take you out of your game, and/or to irritate you so that you will lose your focus.

This guy is the guy who is guilty of unsportsmanlike conduct and most everyone in the pool room already knows this.
 
It Happends

It happend to me on league night that i was going fore a shot and the aponent callded foul fore double tapping the cue ball in which i didnt so i told him to prove it, or a re-rack.
 
I agree

I agree with Eddy May. We were playin on league night and tournaments and played agains a team and while playing, the apossing team members who are not playin were sitting there speaking spanish and the next thing the aponent was making shots like he was being directed to.What is that if it aint coaching?,and they try to call bogus fouls agains you also..
 
I'm afraid I would have had a little chat or more with the opponent's friend after the match outside about being a pool detective.

Years ago, there was a guy down in Houston that got into everyone else's business during gambling sessions. How the guy ended up with most of his teeth in his mouth was beyond me.

I learned along time ago if I'm not involved in a match, I keep my mouth shut. If I'm asked about a call, I tell 'em I've been blind since 1943. Chances are I'm going to piss one or the other off if I speak so no, thank you.


Stones
 
ChrisBanks said:
Keep shooting...

And if it ends that the league operator gives you a loss, drop out of the league.

You win either way.
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Wow...I STRONGLY disagree with you on that one. WHY get mad at a league operator who merely enforces the CLEAR AND UNMISTAKABLE rules?????

And WHY quit a league...which is likely the most convenient or ONLY one in your area...miss all the fun...miss all the competition...out of a wrongheaded and spiteful attitude?

EagleMan
 
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