How would you play this?

Make the two, play the 4 off the seven in the corner and ride the nine in the other corner pocket, I like to take a chance now and then, you could make the nine, make the four, or get safe. Tom
 
It depends on the situation...am I ahead in the race or behind? Is it the first rack or we on the hill? winners or losers bracket?

To play safe: two rail the two ball up table and put whitey on the bottom rail between the first and second diamond.

To play the shot:

A. Do as stated in above post drawing back to about where the CB is now, then playing the carom.

B. Cheat the pocket on the two force follow 3 rails for shape into the line of the 4 to the top right corner.

But it all depends on the score. If I'm ahead, depending on my storke that night, I play the safety. If im behind I shoot either shot to pocket the ball, but if my arm feels good, I shoot B.
 
cheat the pocket to the left with some high inside english and come back two rails for the 4 or play the billiard 4 off the 7.

the billiard is a little risky because from your diagram, it appears the 7 will run into the 6 after contacting the short rail. not sure you could shoot it soft enough to avoid this on a diamond bar box.
 

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I think shooting here is a sucker shot. There is no reliable way to get out here, and if you make the two and try to play safe after thinning the four, you will prolly leave a stop shot kick on the four that will leave you in a bad situation.

Russ
 
jdxprs said:
cheat the pocket to the left with some high inside english and come back two rails for the 4 or play the billiard 4 off the 7.

the billiard is a little risky because from your diagram, it appears the 7 will run into the 6 after contacting the short rail. not sure you could shoot it soft enough to avoid this on a diamond bar box.
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Wow.

A lot of people are thinking the billiard is some kinda hanger.

Too much time played on Valley barboxes, methinks.

No one has looked at the billiard from the context that it requires anywhere from a 3 foot draw (best case scenario being in line with the center of the table with the CB) to an 6 foot draw (being even six inches short from being in the center of the table, needing to stun draw across table off the billiard.) to get to the 5. All the fancy billiard stuff is a moot point if joo gotta play safe next shot.

All this not even taking into account that as far as the 4 is from the pocket, this billiard is TUFF on Diamond pockets. :D

Russ
 
the space between the 4 and 7 make the billiard fairly simple. remember, this is a bar box. if you just play a stop shot on the two, you are only about 3.5 feet from the shot.

to be honest, for most players, executing that billiard is a higher percentage shot than executing the defenses you suggested.
 
jdxprs said:
the space between the 4 and 7 make the billiard fairly simple. remember, this is a bar box. if you just play a stop shot on the two, you are only about 3.5 feet from the shot.

to be honest, for most players, executing that billiard is a higher percentage shot than executing the defenses you suggested.
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Yer not seeing the value of the safes. You don't necessarily need to fully hook your opponent to win. If he can see the 2, so what? He's shooting off the end rail with nothing to get behind. A full snooker would be a bonus, it is not critical.

Please diagram your position shot, and then diagram you billiard with position to the 5.

Have you ever actually PLAYED on a Diamond barbox with pro cut pockets???????

I simply cannot believe you have and you think this billiard with position is "easy".

Russ
 
i play just about every saturday night in a local tourney on diamond bar boxes at a joint called goose landing, as well as shooting in many apa and tap events also on diamond bar boxes.

the billiard shot on the 4 would require about 12 inches of draw for a fairly simple shot on the 5.

the wild card in this is that you will probably drive the 7 off the rail and into the 6 ball. depending on how hard you shoot, you may get yourself in trouble there. running into balls is never a good thing.

on the defensive shots, how close do you think you could consistantly come to the short rail opposite end of the 2? also, if you short the two on its path to the short rail, you leave an easy cut. either way, odds are i will have a better shot at a full snooker playing defense or a bank for the run than you did on that defense.
 
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jdxprs said:
i play just about every saturday night in a local tourney on diamond bar boxes at a joint called goose landing, as well as shooting in many apa and tap events also on diamond bar boxes.

the billiard shot on the 4 would require about 12 inches of draw for a fairly simple shot on the 5.

the wild card in this is that you will probably drive the 7 off the rail and into the 6 ball. depending on how hard you shoot, you may get yourself in trouble there. running into balls is never a good thing.

on the defensive shots, how close do you think you could consistantly come to the short rail opposite end of the 2? also, if you short the two on its path to the short rail, you leave an easy cut. either way, odds are i will have a better shot at a full snooker playing defense or a bank for the run than you did on that defense.
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Okay, if you say so. Looks to me the 4 is overkissing and needs to be cut slightly towards the pocket to make the billiard. And I'd be willing to bet you are playing on League cut pockets and don't even know it. Shoot this for your cash on a Diamond BB with Pro Cut pockets that have a little wear on them, and I think you'll be looking at this shot a little differently.

Short the 2 on the way to the end rail?? One has to hit this incredibly bad to leave any kind of shot on the second safe. INCREDIBLY. One should quit pool if they leave a cut shot to either pocket on this safe.

You'd bank this ball if I left the two on the top rail?

Tee hee..... :D

Either way, if you got Pro Cut pockets on your Diamonds, you got a week to post a video where you get out by following the 2 ball to a billiards shot on the 4 and get out. $20 to you if you can do it. Freeeeeeeee money. Come n get it. :D :D :D

Russ

Russ
 
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on the first defense, if you come up short with the cue, you leave the two pretty dead in right? if you go too hard with the cue, you come off the eight and again leave a decent shot on the two.

on the second defense, in the positions you indicate, if the 6 doesnt have the cue hooked, the two cuts to the corner.

everyone has to play to their personal strengths. i personally believe that your defensive shots here are more difficult than going for the run. you believe opposite. In real life if we ran it 100 times we'd probably come up 50-50 and call it a day. lol
 
tell you what, i'll do it on my home table. not a diamond, but it is 8 ft with tour edition cloth and pockets under 4 inches. sorry, not carrying a camera to the bar to video myself. lol. you can keep the $20.

on a side note, i will offer you the $20 to video yourself executing your two defenses. keep the video running and shoot each one 10 times. if you snooker your opponent at least 6 of the ten, you win.
 
Thanks

Thanks Neil. That was a really nice analysis of a tricky table. Many guys like me would over-think this one into a fubar. :eek:

And you're of course right about the cue balls position making your bridge very tough to execute a good draw shot on.
 
jdxprs said:
i play just about every saturday night in a local tourney on diamond bar boxes at a joint called goose landing,
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Really? Have we met, I played in 3 of the goose landing tournaments last month. I won twice and took 4th the 3rd time. Always nice to run into familiar people. My name is Brady btw.

In response to the question, has noone considered a straight draw shot to somewhere around the top right corner? You would have a fairly large target area for a shot at the 4 ball in the side. If you came up short you could always thin the 4 and go between the 7 and 8 for a safe, and if you royally screw it up and over shoot the draw, either you would hit the 8 pretty full and still have an offensive shot or you would at least be in the area to cut the 4 in the side. In any of the above scenarios you can make the 2 ball and maintain control of the table with a decent play on the 4.
 
This is one of those scenarios that's just difficult to show in a diagram. I immediately saw what Neil did but also would have debated playing this safety. If I feel the natural spot on the 4ball holds it in place by the 7 AND gets me behind the 8 with bottom left, I'll play it this way. If I don't feel comfortable doing this, I'd likely play Neil's shot.

To play Neil's shot over my safety, I'd have to be nearly certain I'd make either ball.

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Neil said:
Here is my thinking on the shot, and what I did. Trying to cheat the pocket and come around two rails for position on the 4 is a sucker shot on a diamond. The reason I say that, is that you have to hit it hard. Hitting hard, means much more chance of the pocket spitting the ball out if not hit absolutely perfect. Even then, with the deep, deep shelf on these tables, it will likely spit out just hitting the facings.

On top of that, you do not have great bridge hand placement due to the 4-7. That leaves us to playing a safe. The safe Russ showed is the only viable safe. Although, I do not like it. If I don't near freeze the 2 to the end rail, it can be cut in without too much trouble if I don't hook him. Hooking him is nothing more than a bonus. Very difficult to actually pull off. Rather low percentage on the hook.

Drawing back off the 2 just gives me the same angle I already have. I gain nothing by drawing, and actually lose a little because it gives me one more thing to concentrate on. As I don't want to draw too far. Already have a compromised bridge hand, why risk adding something to the shot for very little gain?

The carom off the 7, while not a dead carom, it does require a little cut, is not a difficult shot. I would expect to make it near 90% of the time. (if you can't, you need to work on caroms. They are not near as hard as one would think with a minimal amount of practice, and knowing the 90 degree rule.

So, I have looked at the carom, and decided that I need to hit the 4 parallel to the rail. Now, how to get on the 5? If I shoot the 2, and just stop the cue ball, I have a nice angle off the 4. I can shoot the carom with some low right, and come nicely over for a nice angle on the 5. Looking at the carom, I can see that the 7 will run into the 9. Remember, I have to cut the 4 a little, so the 7 is not going down the line of the 4-7. If I hit with a little speed, which I want to do anyways, I will have a free ride on the 9, might even make it. Nothing is going to get in the way of my shot on the 5, so no worries there.

I took the carom, and the 9 also went in. I also had good shape on the 5 in case the 9 didn't go somewhere. Game over.

I posted this because I was curious how many would shun shooting a carom when the 4 is makeable by itself. Caroms shots are very useful tools in a game of 9 ball. Both for defense, and as offence. If you are not really familiar with them, you should practice them. Not being afraid of this carom, which I feel in this case is close to a hanger, I got a free shot on the 9, and made the shot on the 2 very easy to accomplish. Nothing but gain.

The cueball in the diagram next to the 2 is the result after making the 2.

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And, Russ, these are not procut pockets, but they do have the super deep shelf that diamond doesn't make anymore.
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For those of you who have not seen these deep pockets take a look at the pics of these same pockets in this thread, be sure to scroll down to post #19.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=908161&highlight=deep+pockets#post908161

FWIW I would have also played the carom.
 
Neil said:
And, Russ, these are not procut pockets, but they do have the super deep shelf that diamond doesn't make anymore.
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Cool, cool.

If they are league cut Diamonds or Valley type tables, then the carom is the shot, definitely. I was only specifically stating that the shot better be darn near dead to go for it on the Pro Cut pockets, and you did say that the four needed to be cut a little bit to make the shot.

I know that drawing the CB back to the 5 is gonna bend the tangent line forward on the carom, and that also makes me think that this shot is not nearly as dead as it looks.

League cut Diamond and Valleys? There is some room to play with and still make the shot. Pro Cut? Not so much. :D :D :D

Russ
 
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