How would you play this?
- Thread starter Safety
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TATE said:
Nice post, Chris. This hits on a concept that those of us who have played a lot of scotch-doubles are very familiar with. Regardless of skill level, we all develop, to a certain extent at least, prejudices about certain shots and patterns. This may mean that we need to practice different things more often, or it may simply mean that we have preferences... period. One thing I do know is that, when it comes to choosing a scotch-doubles partner, you'll probably be better off with a partner who shares your tastes in pattern-play than you will be with someone who plays a ball better, but either doesn't share your tastes in patterns or is opposite-handed. Right or wrong doesn't really come into it, everybody just has to play according to their own percentages, or whatever their perception of their percentages is.
Good rolls,
Aaron
I'm a bit suprised at all those who would try to put the 8 in the same corner as the 7 and then draw back for the nine. You are introducing so many more ways to get out of position than if you just get straight in on the 8 (or close to straight in) and follow the ball to the nine.
You have to get pretty good on the 9 to pocket it and you're thinking draw 2 rails? What if you get too straight on the 8, then do you try and draw straight back? And if you come up to thin on the 8 you are in real trouble. Other things being equal, it's almost always better to follow than to draw, not least b/c you won't have to hit the ball as hard.
I was gonna say somebody test this and report back, but it's as plain as day to me. If that 8 is off the rail by so much as a 1/4 inch I wouldn't even think twice about this shot.
You have to get pretty good on the 9 to pocket it and you're thinking draw 2 rails? What if you get too straight on the 8, then do you try and draw straight back? And if you come up to thin on the 8 you are in real trouble. Other things being equal, it's almost always better to follow than to draw, not least b/c you won't have to hit the ball as hard.
I was gonna say somebody test this and report back, but it's as plain as day to me. If that 8 is off the rail by so much as a 1/4 inch I wouldn't even think twice about this shot.
I want to be certain that I get ample angle on the eight (same corner as 7) so I can move the cue ball with speed and not compromise pocketing the eight due to speed induced inaccuracy (aha! coined phrase). The more angle I have, the more I can do with the snow. 
Also, just babying the 7 in and the one rail position mean whitey is following my line, not crossing it.
Also, just babying the 7 in and the one rail position mean whitey is following my line, not crossing it.
Because the 9 is closer to one corner than the other, I would probably go the type B (as labeled by Cornerman) route.
However, if the 9 is closer to the other corner pocket, or even if it split the rail, I would do the straight follow on the 8 (type A) every time.
However, if the 9 is closer to the other corner pocket, or even if it split the rail, I would do the straight follow on the 8 (type A) every time.
This is an absolute bread & butter standard in 9-ball (one across to the second diamond,.. it's not really a draw shot). If you don't shoot this shot in your sleep, 9-ball will never be easy for you (general statement)dan_boersma said:
The two patterns favored by the posters to get to the 8-ball for this shot ... the right hander's slide one rail underneath or the left hander's one rail straight back... have no chance at getting too straight.
Fred
Cornerman said:
1. I understand that the 2 rail 'not really draw is bread and butter and we all shoot it. But why risk not getting in the right position to shoot it? There is always the chance to get too thin, and then your are in some real trouble. You just can't get out of shape on the 8 if you follow it up table.
I'm going to try this shot out when I get a chance. I think I know what the results will be but I am certainly willing to be wrong. Maybe it just comes down to preference.
CrownCityCorey said:
Thats exactly what they were arguing about. The A Player played it the first way with the 8 in the same pocket as the 7 and the B payer played the 8 in the top right corner. The pockets are huge on that table (Fits 2 balls + extra quarter inch space). At first I would've agreed with the B player and put the 8 in the top right, but after thinking about it for a while, I like your first pattern better on any table. Thanks for everyone's help.
BTW, I think this is the fist thread that I've been able to start w/ multiple pages...good for me!
Safety said:
I favor the one-cushion position to above the 8 for the two-cushion draw to the 9 over the position below the 8 for follow to the 9 irrespective of how big the pockets are. No chance of a scratch from the 8 to the 9 there, and no chance of rolling down on top of the 9. Also, no chance of ending up further from the 9 with a tougher cut due to letting up on your follow stroke to make sure you do not scratch down table in the corner pocket, if you get dead straight for the follow down table off the 8.
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ok, here are my results on this:
I played the shot just now, I went 4 shots each without practice,
1: My way, shoot 7 straight in (distance from it did not matter), cue came about 1-2 inches off rail and I followed the 8 all the way up into the opposite corner. I did not need much follow, just slightly farther that the side (but I always went further) and it was a simple shot into the corner for the 9.
shot 1, nailed it,
shot 2, nailed it,
shot 3, missed it (took my mind off it and used inadvertant rt and through it into the rail),
shot 4 came up short on the 9 and still made it.
2: 7 and 8 into the same corner,
shot 1, came up shot and left a bank on the 8,
shot 2, ran into the 8 some how?????
shot 3 got shape on the 8 and ended up straight in the middle of the table on the 9 (like a modified spot shot).
shot 4, got decent shape on all shots (missed the 9!!)
So there it is, my field test, 9' table with 860 on it.
For me: my original shot of stop and follow was the best. What about you guys?
I played the shot just now, I went 4 shots each without practice,
1: My way, shoot 7 straight in (distance from it did not matter), cue came about 1-2 inches off rail and I followed the 8 all the way up into the opposite corner. I did not need much follow, just slightly farther that the side (but I always went further) and it was a simple shot into the corner for the 9.
shot 1, nailed it,
shot 2, nailed it,
shot 3, missed it (took my mind off it and used inadvertant rt and through it into the rail),
shot 4 came up short on the 9 and still made it.
2: 7 and 8 into the same corner,
shot 1, came up shot and left a bank on the 8,
shot 2, ran into the 8 some how?????
shot 3 got shape on the 8 and ended up straight in the middle of the table on the 9 (like a modified spot shot).
shot 4, got decent shape on all shots (missed the 9!!)
So there it is, my field test, 9' table with 860 on it.
For me: my original shot of stop and follow was the best. What about you guys?
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Because:
1. The long shot on the 8 isn't harder than the cut on the 8 with sidespin and draw (in fact, it's easier)
2. You can get perfect shape for the long 8 shot just about every time, but the angle you get on the 8 for the short shot is very variable
3. With good shape on the long 8 shot it's much easier and more reliable to get good shape on the 9 than zigzagging at it, especially with such a variable angle on the 8
Sounds like you don't like long straight-in shots, but I bet even you would do better over a number of shots with the pattern you don't like.
By the way, I know the tables at Hollywood Billiards, and my assessment applies there too, maybe more so.
pj
chgo
If I took ball in hand from here, accepted the long shot on the 8, and didn't get out, I'd want to hang myself because I would feel like I played it the wrong way. I'd have to be playing pretty scared to cinch the 7-ball from here and take the long shot on the 8.
Man. If I had hung myself every time I've wanted to ... I'd be dead?
Man. If I had hung myself every time I've wanted to ... I'd be dead?
Jimmy M. said:
I'm getting nervous just reading all of this. There is a situation where I would play the 8 down table. If my tip broke off, and i just had a ferrule, I would chalk it and shoot the 8 in the corner and follow for the 9. Or, maybe I would just end the misery and play a safe on the 7.
These situations are just so stressful.
Chris
TATE said:
All joking aside, I think the only way I'd consider shooting the 8 all the way up table is if the 7 were along the same rail as the 8, between the 8 and the corner pocket. In that case, stopping the 7 and shooting the 8 up table would be a legitimate option. I just can't see playing the 8 up in the corner with the 7 where it is though. It's too easy to get shape in the preferred pocket.
Success rates on the follow versus draw shape on the 8 may vary from person to person. For me, once you get above the 8 with any decent angle, drawing off the cushion for the 9 is virtually foolproof, with no chance of scratching in the corner near the 9.
With the follow shot, a slight difference in the angle you get on the 8 can translate to a big difference in where you end up once you get down to the 9. I also think with the follow you pretty much have to accept whatever direction the angle you get takes you down table (you can change the direction with a different stroke, but this increases the difficulty of pocketing the 8, especially on tight equipment), whereas I think you can change the angle off the 8 a little if necessary on the draw shot, with more or less draw, and with a firmer or less firm stroke (so that the draw takes more or less quickly).
I also normally play on 3 7/8" pockets, and that follow shot on the 8, though not difficult with decent shape, is still missable on tight equipment.
With the follow shot, a slight difference in the angle you get on the 8 can translate to a big difference in where you end up once you get down to the 9. I also think with the follow you pretty much have to accept whatever direction the angle you get takes you down table (you can change the direction with a different stroke, but this increases the difficulty of pocketing the 8, especially on tight equipment), whereas I think you can change the angle off the 8 a little if necessary on the draw shot, with more or less draw, and with a firmer or less firm stroke (so that the draw takes more or less quickly).
I also normally play on 3 7/8" pockets, and that follow shot on the 8, though not difficult with decent shape, is still missable on tight equipment.
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Jimmy M. said:
What I don't like is the 9 is on the same side of the table as the 8. If I were shooting at the far corner, normally I would play angle on the 8 to roll to the right side of the 9. In that case, you would then be either shooting at the 8 with the cueball on the rail, or following into the rail which means shooting harder, or playing position to get to the short side of the 9 and flirting with the side points.
No thanks. I'll pull the cueball back. All this discussion over a simple layout with numerous good ways to clear it is why some of these threads are ridiculous.
Chris