Humble Pie at the Mosconi Cup

Catalin

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Next Mosconi Cup is it possible to spot Europe a point or two to keep it close?



Kinda feeling a little sorry for the buggers in Europe. Cheer up boys don't think of it as losing, think of it as coming in 2nd place....:rolleyes::eek:



Ken
Pleas remind, how many times in a row did US lose before that? And who's coach were you given to get you out of the hole? Asking for a friend.

Julian
 

Cardigan Kid

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here's my prediction. Filler can beat any one of these guys but he can't beat them all! If he continues to play top players they will eventually wear him out. He could play all the 9-Ball he wanted if he traveled to the Philippines or Taiwan. They would line up to play him and at some point they would wear him out.

If he's smart (and I think he is) he will continue to pick his spots and only play when he's ready. His wife is pretty sharp too from what I can see. In other words you can get too much of a good thing. He would be foolish to wear himself out playing too many big money matches against tough opposition.

Dennis O. has probably been the most prolific big money player the last few years and even he gets burned out on occasions and has a bad match. He went home this last time for that very reason. He told me he was tired and needed a break from pool.

Jay, if you can elaborate here a bit...you have a serious up close and personal history with the gambling aspect of the game, so your answer intrigues me.

We all know when a player gets hot, they get on a streak and make the game look easy.
From Dec 2017 to Dec 2019, no one has had a tourney run like Filler....2017 Mosconi mvp as a rookie...world champion 9 ball....Matchroom US Open 9 ball...set 14.1 record at DCC...accu stats make it happen 14.1 overall winner....derby big foot 10 ball runner up....world 10 ball runner up...and now went 18-6 against Shane x 2, Billy and Skyler at Mosconi. This doesn’t include his money match wins over big names on the side.

So my question is...why not play anyone at anytime until you get worn out?
One thing I hand it to Dennis...he doesn’t let a loss effect him (in both tourneys and gambling) he just gets back up and keeps going until he (like you reported) needed a break.

Why wouldn’t a player of Filler’s caliber, while on top, play as many big matches as can be scheduled when he’s on a streak of this magnitude? It’s like a 16 hour a day gold miner hits pay dirt, and finds that vein of gold, but all of a sudden goes to working 8 hours a day. It doesn’t make sense to me.
 

skogstokig

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here's my prediction. Filler can beat any one of these guys but he can't beat them all! If he continues to play top players they will eventually wear him out. He could play all the 9-Ball he wanted if he traveled to the Philippines or Taiwan. They would line up to play him and at some point they would wear him out.

If he's smart (and I think he is) he will continue to pick his spots and only play when he's ready. His wife is pretty sharp too from what I can see. In other words you can get too much of a good thing. He would be foolish to wear himself out playing too many big money matches against tough opposition.

Dennis O. has probably been the most prolific big money player the last few years and even he gets burned out on occasions and has a bad match. He went home this last time for that very reason. He told me he was tired and needed a break from pool.

taiwan ok, but who in the philippines do you think could play filler even?
 

trob

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
taiwan ok, but who in the philippines do you think could play filler even?

I’ve watched face book live matches where kids ..that’s right kids.. you’ve never seen before are spotting efrin balls and running it up his a$$ lol Their are plenty.
 

ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
I’ve watched face book live matches where kids ..that’s right kids.. you’ve never seen before are spotting efrin balls and running it up his a$$ lol Their are plenty.

Efren is a couple of speeds off his prime, and simply cannot beat the tier 1 players in the Phillipines any more. And is prolly getting spotted small by the tier 2 players now in 9 ball/10 ball, too.

NOBODY in the Phillipines is spotting Dennis anything yet, and if they tried, they'd get their nuts shot in. And Filler handled him easily. I don't believe Dennis got torched in a set and then said "flip it", and Filler decided to pass easy money up for dinner plans. I am betting Pia would have told him to get his arsch in the box cuz, "Frau needs a new pair of Schuhe..." Also, it is WELL known that Dennis likes to have the best of it, by at least a small margin, in virtually every matchup he plays, and is quick to call it quits when he is in a bad game. The only reason he got in the box with Shane again is prolly because he found one last backer willing to take a shot. He'll prolly never get another shot at Shane again, because he got torched pretty bad the last time, and he is too prideful to take a spot from Shane.

I am watching Aranas run a 7 pack in a Sullyvision match against Cheng at the moment, and I still wouldn't like his chances against Josh Filler in any long set. Aranas and a few other Filipinos have good fundamentals, and good percentage play, but Josh simply hits the vast majority of shots at the best make speed, and has by far the best current ability to simply forget a bad outcome, and bring it on the next tough shot.

He hits the ball so perfect, he can accurately predict 12+ feet of cue ball travel and be within a few inches of the expected outcome. This gives him a massive advantage when he's faced with a tough shot that he is forced to shoot situationally, with an extremely narrow position zone. A lot of his peers will shoot the shot, come up a foot short or long, and be forced into a jump or kick to recover. Josh, to a higher degree, gets there, and runs another rack or two behind that successful shot.

And it's not an isolated case. I watched him beat a few top players in the Big Truck room at DCC this year, and if anything, he's gotten BETTER.

If he decides to go to the Phillipines, I will bet $500.00 on every match he plays, and I don't care WHO he plays.
 
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nine_ball6970

585 speed drunk
Silver Member
I’ve watched face book live matches where kids ..that’s right kids.. you’ve never seen before are spotting efrin balls and running it up his a$$ lol Their are plenty.

The new rising star seems to be Kyle Amoroto. I think he is 17. You can watch him beat Kiamco, Aranas, Raga and Biado on youtube. He doesn't win every match but in some of them he beats those players pretty soundly. Shoots incredibly straight and shows no fear at all.
 

skogstokig

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I’ve watched face book live matches where kids ..that’s right kids.. you’ve never seen before are spotting efrin balls and running it up his a$$ lol Their are plenty.

i've heard versions of this story for a decade or more. about ignacio, aranas, chua and most recently about raga. very tough players, but not as good as the top taiwan players, or filler
 

nine_ball6970

585 speed drunk
Silver Member
i've heard versions of this story for a decade or more. about ignacio, aranas, chua and most recently about raga. very tough players, but not as good as the top taiwan players, or filler

Fargo has Filler at 821. Raga at 819. Aranas at 806. Ignacio at 801. Chua at 797. Make of that what you will.

Anybody playing 800+ speed can beat anyone else on a given day. Their best days are god like.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Jay, if you can elaborate here a bit...you have a serious up close and personal history with the gambling aspect of the game, so your answer intrigues me.

We all know when a player gets hot, they get on a streak and make the game look easy.
From Dec 2017 to Dec 2019, no one has had a tourney run like Filler....2017 Mosconi mvp as a rookie...world champion 9 ball....Matchroom US Open 9 ball...set 14.1 record at DCC...accu stats make it happen 14.1 overall winner....derby big foot 10 ball runner up....world 10 ball runner up...and now went 18-6 against Shane x 2, Billy and Skyler at Mosconi. This doesn’t include his money match wins over big names on the side.

So my question is...why not play anyone at anytime until you get worn out?
One thing I hand it to Dennis...he doesn’t let a loss effect him (in both tourneys and gambling) he just gets back up and keeps going until he (like you reported) needed a break.

Why wouldn’t a player of Filler’s caliber, while on top, play as many big matches as can be scheduled when he’s on a streak of this magnitude? It’s like a 16 hour a day gold miner hits pay dirt, and finds that vein of gold, but all of a sudden goes to working 8 hours a day. It doesn’t make sense to me.

I agree that Filler's run in tournaments especially has been phenomenal, almost unmatched in this modern era. Sprinkle in some wins in money games and he has certainly established himself as the man to beat.

I think he is the outlier to my equation that I stated above. I attribute it to his youth and his skill. That said, I still believe that if he doesn't pace himself he will burn out to one degree or another. He's going to take some hard losses, that's inevitable. How they will effect him moving forward remains to be seen. Who even knows if this most recent loss on pool's biggest stage to Skyler won't have a lasting effect. We should have an answer to that very soon with the World 9-Ball coming right up.

I can only go by what I've witnessed over the last 40-50 years. Almost any player who takes on too many other top players in rapid succession will start to get beat on after awhile. There have been a couple of exceptions though. For a period of almost ten years Buddy Hall took on all comers in Shreveport and to the best of my knowledge only lost once (to Dan Louie). And then there is PARICA! He was the real money king of professional pool for maybe two decades. For a long, long time no one wanted to play him even! And I mean NO ONE! The pool world took a pass on playing him after he spanked everyone foolish enough to try. And of course we all know about Efren's long dominance in the game of One Pocket, which is a very different animal than Rotation games.
 

Cardigan Kid

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Efren is a couple of speeds off his prime, and simply cannot beat the tier 1 players in the Phillipines any more. And is prolly getting spotted small by the tier 2 players now in 9 ball/10 ball, too.

NOBODY in the Phillipines is spotting Dennis anything yet, and if they tried, they'd get their nuts shot in. And Filler handled him easily. I don't believe Dennis got torched in a set and then said "flip it", and Filler decided to pass easy money up for dinner plans. I am betting Pia would have told him to get his arsch in the box cuz, "Frau needs a new pair of Schuhe....

I thought she shut him down because he had a really early match the next morning in the semifinals. At least that is what I thought I heard on the stream during that night.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
taiwan ok, but who in the philippines do you think could play filler even?

About fifty guys, half of whom we've never seen in this country. Yes, they may be untested in major tournaments, but they are ready to take on anyone who ventures their way. It seems like every time a new Filipino champion arrives on our shores they have to go through a learning curve and then they begin to dominate.

There are many championship speed players in the Philippines who have yet to be tested overseas, and some may never get the chance. But from what I've seen, if foreign players venture over there looking for action they will get it in spades. Someone who can play like Filler might well win at first, but I wouldn't be surprised to see his opponents gain speed overnight as they play him. Filipino pool players are fast learners and they will do whatever it takes to figure out how to win. If they need to move their game up a speed or two they seem to be quite able to do that when necessary.

That's why you see guys like Aranas and Gomez struggle at first over here and then begin to dominate. They are relentless adversaries! Dennis is only one example of that. You can knock him down but he will get right back up and say let's do it again.
 

Cardigan Kid

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree that Filler's run in tournaments especially has been phenomenal, almost unmatched in this modern era. Sprinkle in some wins in money games and he has certainly established himself as the man to beat.

I think he is the outlier to my equation that I stated above. I attribute it to his youth and his skill. That said, I still believe that if he doesn't pace himself he will burn out to one degree or another. He's going to take some hard losses, that's inevitable. How they will effect him moving forward remains to be seen. Who even knows if this most recent loss on pool's biggest stage to Skyler won't have a lasting effect. We should have an answer to that very soon with the World 9-Ball coming right up.

I can only go by what I've witnessed over the last 40-50 years. Almost any player who takes on too many other top players in rapid succession will start to get beat on after awhile. There have been a couple of exceptions though. For a period of almost ten years Buddy Hall took on all comers in Shreveport and to the best of my knowledge only lost once (to Dan Louie). And then there is PARICA! He was the real money king of professional pool for maybe two decades. For a long, long time no one wanted to play him even! And I mean NO ONE! The pool world took a pass on playing him after he spanked everyone foolish enough to try. And of course we all know about Efren's long dominance in the game of One Pocket, which is a very different animal than Rotation games.

Thanks for the response, Jay.
So the goal is to pick and choose and look to the extend this zone of dominance, instead of constant action leading to the burn out.
I only was able to catch the tail end of Parica’s career, and watching him go toe to toe with a prime Johnny Archer was something to behold. So much respect for that guy.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thanks for the response, Jay.
So the goal is to pick and choose and look to the extend this zone of dominance, instead of constant action leading to the burn out.
I only was able to catch the tail end of Parica’s career, and watching him go toe to toe with a prime Johnny Archer was something to behold. So much respect for that guy.

Johnny in his prime was about the only guy willing to play Parica even.
 

nine_ball6970

585 speed drunk
Silver Member
About fifty guys, half of whom we've never seen in this country. Yes, they may be untested in major tournaments, but they are ready to take on anyone who ventures their way. It seems like every time a new Filipino champion arrives on our shores they have to go through a learning curve and then they begin to dominate.

There are many championship speed players in the Philippines who have yet to be tested overseas, and some may never get the chance. But from what I've seen, if foreign players venture over there looking for action they will get it in spades. Someone who can play like Filler might well win at first, but I wouldn't be surprised to see his opponents gain speed overnight as they play him. Filipino pool players are fast learners and they will do whatever it takes to figure out how to win. If they need to move their game up a speed or two they seem to be quite able to do that when necessary.

That's why you see guys like Aranas and Gomez struggle at first over here and then begin to dominate. They are relentless adversaries! Dennis is only one example of that. You can knock him down but he will get right back up and say let's do it again.

I like your assessment. An example of that was Dennis playing Tony one pocket. Tony ran over him the first day. Dennis continued to learn shots from Tony to put in his arsenal. Dennis almost cam back and beat him the first time they played. With all the knowledge Dennis got from playing, Tony had no chance to beat him the second time they played.
 

ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
I like your assessment. An example of that was Dennis playing Tony one pocket. Tony ran over him the first day. Dennis continued to learn shots from Tony to put in his arsenal. Dennis almost cam back and beat him the first time they played. With all the knowledge Dennis got from playing, Tony had no chance to beat him the second time they played.

Meh. I don't think that is why Dennis won at all. Tony simply doesn't have the fundamentals that Dennis does, and therefore needs to take risks in order to compete at the elite level. Dennis is relentless, and simply waited for Tony's arm to have a cold spell. I mean sure... You can't go into a match with someone like Tony without being within a ball of the top players, but still. The second match was about Tony no longer playing someone clueless about One Pocket, and then getting his head beat in by superior fundamentals.

I have been in this situation many times. Playing a player who is "shooting up in the air" a bit. You just wait them out, and after a period, they run through a period where they hit a few balls a hair too fat/thin, and they sell out a few games.

The thing with Orcollo is... You don't have to sell out a straight in shot for him to punish you severely, in any game. What got Tony is the fact that he doesn't execute as well as Dennis, and the circus shots only go...until they don't. And when they stop going for a short period, Tony is gonna get beat 2-3-4 games in a row. This now increases the pressure on Tony's fundamentals, making them break down even further. Which leads to a few more sellouts.

"Heart" is not a substitute for subpar fundamentals. The only time a player with lesser fundamentals beats one with superior fundamentals, is when the superior overall player simply does not know the game. And Orcollo straight up knows how to play some good One Pocket, these days. I don't know that anyone outside of Pagulayan would be a favorite over him in a long One Pocket race. And no one with less than world class rotation ability need apply. I am pretty sure Dennis could spot Efren a ball in One Pocket these days. Just based on pure fundamentals.
 
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mikepage

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i've heard versions of this story for a decade or more. about ignacio, aranas, chua and most recently about raga. very tough players, but not as good as the top taiwan players, or filler

But it is no longer just these stories. Sure, all we have for Raga against Taiwanese players is
Raga 11 Pin Yi Ko 2
Raga 5 Yu Lung Chang 9
Raga 11 Kun Lin Wu 5

That's only 43 games.

But add that to how he performs against the best Chinese players like Jiaqing Wu (21 to 21), Can Wang (9 to 5), the best European players (Jayson Shaw 9 to 7), (Kaci 11 to 8), (Feijen 11 to 8).

Raga is no longer the yeah yeah yeah spots the champions in the back room story. he is the real deal.

That's what that Fargo Rating means.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Whoa.. Jay... whoa...

Ha Ha. Hard to believe huh. I'd say there are at least a couple of dozen guys over there that we have yet to even hear about who would be playing at a .750 pace within one year if they were able to compete internationally. Add that to the two dozen names we know about already.

I've been all over that country and strong unknown players pop up everywhere. Many of them busy themselves with poker and other endeavors until the call comes for them to play pool. Then they come in cold and mow down some foreigner who was looking for action. There are many fairly large scale money games over there that are not recorded (by choice) and typically pit a foreign player (Aussie or European) against a Filipino. There is a strong hustling culture in the Philippines that develops very strong players on a regular basis.

Raga was a phenom who everyone quickly became aware of because he was playing everybody even from a young age. Guys like Francisco, Alcano and Efren would fly down to Cebu to take him on when he was a teenager and he was doing better than holding his own. Dennis was about the only guy he refused to play for a long time.

Guys like Ignazio, Aranas, Geronimo and Chua came from that culture, but there are many more over there who are competitive with them. Many more!
 
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