"Hustling" connotation unjustly hurts pool

[krupa]

Maybe my first post didn't get read well enough, I know it was long, but YES, hustling IS a form of deception..... just like the baseball player that gets hit by a pitch, hobbles down to first, calls out the trainer then takes off for second on the first pitch and makes it easily. This man has just deceived 30 thousand fans, and the pitcher and catcher, and everybody loves him for it. My point is, when a pool player deceives, they are looked down upon. I think we as players have a really odd habit of wanting other players to look bad, i'm not sure why, hence this thread.

This doesn't really happen in baseball the way you describe it. Some guys don't get hit, but the umpire thinks they do and gives them the base. Even if the baseball grazes the uniform, it's considered HBP (hit by pitch) and the player is awarded a base. So the player may not think he got hit and he's certainly not going to argue, but your scenario just doesn't happen these days.

Having said that. I don't think the hustler connotation affects pool in any way. There are hustlers in all walks of life, people who are only interested in separating you from your money, and pool is no different.

The "problem" with pool is simply that pool tables are hard to come by. Growing up and living in small towns, the only tables are in bars or bowling alleys and typically the bowling alleys had the tables in the bars!

Also, pool is hard and people are lazy. There's not enough financial incentive (like there is in other sports) to devote the time (if you have the access to a table) to becoming a top-flight player. To get more money into the game, you need more viewers. To get more viewers, you need interesting matches. To have interesting matches, you need commentators who can keep a person interested. Most matches that I've seen on youtube are pretty damn boring. The commentators don't know what to say or repeat themselves or whatever. Listen to baseball on the radio, those announcers know what they're doing (well, some do anyway...)

 

[The Chinchilla]

This doesn't really happen in baseball the way you describe it. Some guys don't get hit, but the umpire thinks they do and gives them the base. Even if the baseball grazes the uniform, it's considered HBP (hit by pitch) and the player is awarded a base. So the player may not think he got hit and he's certainly not going to argue, but your scenario just doesn't happen these days.

Having said that. I don't think the hustler connotation affects pool in any way. There are hustlers in all walks of life, people who are only interested in separating you from your money, and pool is no different.

The "problem" with pool is simply that pool tables are hard to come by. Growing up and living in small towns, the only tables are in bars or bowling alleys and typically the bowling alleys had the tables in the bars!

Also, pool is hard and people are lazy. There's not enough financial incentive (like there is in other sports) to devote the time (if you have the access to a table) to becoming a top-flight player. To get more money into the game, you need more viewers. To get more viewers, you need interesting matches. To have interesting matches, you need commentators who can keep a person interested. Most matches that I've seen on youtube are pretty damn boring. The commentators don't know what to say or repeat themselves or whatever. Listen to baseball on the radio, those announcers know what they're doing (well, some do anyway...)

No no, forgive if I explained wrong, I think I assumed all are baseball fans, who all know this move. Whaty happens is a batter gets legitimately hit by a pitch. He then hobbles down to first like he is in a lot of pain, maybe even have the trianer come out while he's on the ground at home plate by the way. THEN, he takes off for second and and steals the base on the very next pitch, ie he was obviously fine the whole time. Is he a scumbag, a cheat, a con-man?? See my point?

And, as you said, yes there are people only interested in seperating you from your money, and many of them are highly respected businessmen. Again, i'm not sure why it is like this.

 

[krupa]

No no, forgive if I explained wrong, I think I assumed all are baseball fans, who all know this move. Whaty happens is a batter gets legitimately hit by a pitch. He then hobbles down to first like he is in a lot of pain, maybe even have the trianer come out while he's on the ground at home plate by the way. THEN, he takes off for second and and steals the base on the very next pitch, ie he was obviously fine the whole time. Is he a scumbag, a cheat, a con-man?? See my point?

I understand what you're saying, but I don't see it happen that often. I especially don't see what the ballplayer is gaining from this move. Maybe tricking the defense into not holding him on the base? Maybe I see it but don't realize what's actually happening.

Either way, you use very negative words to describe it. I guess I would consider him less-than-honorable but I don't know if I would go so far as to call him a hustler, cheat, or con-man. I don't think hustlers are scumbags, but they're definitely con-men.

And, as you said, yes there are people only interested in seperating you from your money, and many of them are highly respected businessmen. Again, i'm not sure why it is like this.

It's like this because we as a society put a high value on money and the junk money buys us. You can certainly question the respectability of business people, especially the incredibly successful ones. They're pretty ruthless when you look at the dirty details.

 

[The Chinchilla]

I'm going to try and fizzle my thoughts down into a few sentences...

I feel pool players earn the right to play however they want after having reached whatever level they have achieved. Just like a person who trains as a sprinter (or ANY field, athletic or not), he has the right to run however fast he wants in a race. In other fields such as business, and even other sports, I see respected athletes and buisinessmen get away with a lot of deception, and it seems ok to the general public. Try reading "The Art of War," which many businessmen follow. It is ALL about deception!! However, in pool any deception whatsoever lables you as a hustler, which carries very unjust connotations with it.

To judge a pool player for SUPPOSEDLY (ie you could be wrong in your judgement) not playing his true game is not only predjudicial, but it is not even your right. It is simply none of your business what a player does with his own game. To put it bluntly, just focus on your own game and don't label anybody if you get outmaneuvered.

 

[The Chinchilla]

I understand what you're saying, but I don't see it happen that often. I especially don't see what the ballplayer is gaining from this move. Maybe tricking the defense into not holding him on the base? Maybe I see it but don't realize what's actually happening.

Either way, you use very negative words to describe it. I guess I would consider him less-than-honorable but I don't know if I would go so far as to call him a hustler, cheat, or con-man. I don't think hustlers are scumbags, but they're definitely con-men.


It's like this because we as a society put a high value on money and the junk money buys us. You can certainly question the respectability of business people, especially the incredibly successful ones. They're pretty ruthless when you look at the dirty details.

The ballplayer fakes the pitcher into thinking he wont steal by acting hurt. So, the pitcher stops paying attention to him (to hold the guy close to the base is an art in itself).

I like your last paragraph. We do put a high value on money, which is why we should not hold it against a pool player if he tries to put the most money possible in his pocket. Especially in light of the fact that we don't hold it against other members of society for doing this same thing.

 

[krupa]

I like your last paragraph. We do put a high value on money, which is why we should not hold it against a pool player if he tries to put the most money possible in his pocket. Especially in light of the fact that we don't hold it against other members of society for doing this same thing.

Ah, but I DO hold it against other members of society for trying to dishonestly get my money. I find our obsession with money and material goods to be more than a little sickening.

I totally form opinions about people (i.e. judge them) based on how they behave towards me. We all do. I try not set my opinions in stone however, and I try to give people more than one chance. As you said, people have bad days. But I will have an opinion about you after I've interacted with you whether you like that opinion or not.

Editted to add:For the record, if I recognize a ballplayer deceiving the pitcher in the way we've been talking about, I will definitely think less of him.

 

[vagabond]

To judge a pool player for SUPPOSEDLY (ie you could be wrong in your judgement) not playing his true game is not only predjudicial, but it is not even your right.....

Amen !


PS: Irrationality is NOT limitted to drunks in the bar rooms only and it is pervasive in our society.

 

[Scott Lee]

macguy...I agree with this post, although I do believe personally that it is a lowlife person that preys on people far below their skill level. Jack White told me something a long time ago. He said, "You can't hustle and hustler; and you can't rob a thief!" He was right. People will be whatever they are.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

This is not in response to any one poster just a comment. When playing pool with an unknown opponent there is no expectation of any fiduciary relationship, I assume they are trying to con me if they can. After all the intention of the "Hustle" is not to so much cheat the other player but to lull them into a sense of well being. In fact in many cases make them feel they are in fact the one taking advantage.

There are unknown factors on both sides. Someone in another post used the term "Fish". They imply you are taking advantage of a helpless sucker but this in rarely the case. As said many years ago, "You can't cheat an honest man". Well of course you can, many people get cheated by car dealers and roofers etc. but in a gambling situation there are no innocent parties. The winner will be the better player and how that conclusion is arrived at is what the play of the game is for.

Evaluating your opponent is as important as your own play as both players jockey for advantage. In the case of world beaters they pretty much know they will win no matter who happens to be the opponent and many time these local champions who end up on the losing end, at the start thought they were the hustlers. I call these players "Ultra Hustlers".

When they go in a town they attract the local hustlers and it doesn't take long. Pretty much all you have to do is get a table by yourself and they will show up. It can be funny sometimes, even though you are the stranger and the local guy should have the fans it does not take long to get the feeling there is some kind of mass pleasure in the room watching him take a beating. These local hustlers can be pretty petty characters and not very popular in their areas.

Long story short, I expect my lawyer and accountant to be on the up and up with me, in fact it would be illegal if they are not. But if I go in a pool room "To Gamble", and have expectations that everything everyone says or does is the truth and in my best interest, I better find another use for my time because I won't fair very well.

 

[Sam Waltz]

New blood...

The biggest problem I've seen in the modern day world of pool is that our up and coming youth protégés have been instructed how to "gamble/hustle/match-up" way more than they've been shown how to "play" the game at it's highest level. Somewhere along the line it turned into a game of how to screw your opponents out of the dough rather than beat them and that is where, IMO, all has been lost.

The new blood in the game, for the most part, seems to have a woody for taking from people rather than working on their own game until they have the abilities to straight up beat them out of the dough. Stand-up kids do still exist and revel in the glory of taking down a champ on their own merit, but the majority are still looking for the "angle/hustle" and take pride in that aspect on a far wider scale unfortunately.

Hey, it all comes down to personal pride and if you can feel good about yourself after each of your battles on or off a pool table. If you can then enjoy your life. If you feel guilty about anything you do then you are probably F'in up in one way or another so change it! Hey, if your Mom saw what you did last night would she be proud of you for winning or would she lecture you on how you won? Bla bla bla, you get the point...

To each his own my friends, you'll answer to nobody but yourself in the morning anyway. Best of luck to you all! :thumbup: