"Hustling" connotation unjustly hurts pool

See post #10. If you've never been hustled you probably haven't been around pool long enough to know, one way or another.

I have been "around" pool for 44 years and can say with much certainty that I have not ONCE been hustled. I have only played for money once in my life (to see if what they say is true about playing for $$$ will make you focus/play better), and I knew going in that I was going to be handing the guy a steady stream of twenties :o!!! I discovered a long time ago that a fool and his money are soon parted and have never fallen into the gambling trap. Hell, I ain't never even bought one single lottery ticket. EVER!!!

Maniac (knows cliches' are coined for a reason)
 
I think the word hustler carries with it very unfair connotations. ..........



Thanks for listening.



You have MORE sharking going on in the pool rooms THAN Hustling.
Hustlers break no laws of Federal,State,County,City.
Hustlers break no rules of BCA,APA,WPBA,WPA or Timbaktu.
It is the players who are involved in SHARKING break the BCA,WPA,WPBA,APA rules. One should be more focussed in taking diciplinary actions against the people who shark.

Most commonly used shark maneuver is not sitting in the designated chair and standing around the table when his opponent is shooting.
Seven out of ten players involve themselves in violating the laws by sharking the opponent.Hustlers break no laws.
After Thanks giving or christmas dinner some families go to a pool room and one can find the grandma , aunt or some other family members standing around the table. I don`t call the grandma a shark beause the grandma may not have that intention of sharking and she lacks awareness and it is due to simple ignorence. But if a regular pool player stands around the table it will be called sharking whether he has intention of sharking or not .There is no excue for a regular pool player.

One can see this sharking behavior in every pool room in USA. This inappropriate/illegal behavior is the one , one should be concerned about.

I saw even Effren standing ( instead of being seated ) in the line of fire of the opponent during the US Open one pocket tournament in May in Las Vegas. Years ago I saw a photograph in which Effren standing while the opponent was at the table in a Grady Mathews`s tournament in Gulfport, MS in (?) 2004.

Second most common shark maneuver is picking the chalk off the table after missing the shot.When the incoming player is studying the table the shark puts the chalk back on the table which breaks the concentration of the opponent. This is the kind of behaviors the pool community should be concerned.:cool:
 
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To the question "Does hustling hurt pool?" NO would be the answer and it may even bethe best thing that has ever happened to pool. The movies would have flopped without it and I don't see anything that has been as big come along either.

When we say "Oh people outside the pool world think hustling is a bad thing and we are all scum bags" NOT TRUE! Those arethe peoplethat went to see COM 2 times at the theatre and bought the dvd. Do you know why?? Because they want to be a part of it, its a get away from their daily grind and white collar jobs. Deep down inside they want to get their hands dirty and live on the edge a little. Watching a movie like the Hustler or COM they get to live inside that world for a little while and they love it. Some of my NON pool friends love to hear the stories that Earl, Nick or Buddy have told me about their time working the road.
So just saying I believethat most people looking from the outside in don't have a bad image of players if anything they are alittle envyous. What doI know anyway?
 
I have been "around" pool for 44 years and can say with much certainty that I have not ONCE been hustled. I have only played for money once in my life (to see if what they say is true about playing for $$$ will make you focus/play better), and I knew going in that I was going to be handing the guy a steady stream of twenties :o!!! I discovered a long time ago that a fool and his money are soon parted and have never fallen into the gambling trap. Hell, I ain't never even bought one single lottery ticket. EVER!!!

Maniac (knows cliches' are coined for a reason)

LOL! Well, I admit that I don't know what kind of situation you were in to be "around pool for 44 years". I seriously doubt that you've never been hustled, though, and I didn't mean that in a derogatory way. Sorry if it sounded that way.
Ever lost to a guy you think you should beat, by just a few points, for table time, coffee and a sandwich, bragging rights? And lost over and over? You just can't seem to get out no matter what? Friend of yours, maybe?
Were you being hustled or did you just play, well, not up to speed?
There's lots of hustles and not just for serious action;)
I'm not even going to touch you're playing for money one time to check out the focus thing:embarrassed2:
I had started a post to cut and paste but had to stop to go eat with the kid and his family. I may work on it some more later.
 
A hustler is someone someone looking to take advantage of anothers lesser skills. It has nothing to do with proving skills, its all about finding the fattest mark $$$ with the least skills.

Most often these marks are gamblers or for lack of a better term have a gambling problem. They go off for everything in their pocket.
A gambler with a problem IMO is someone that risk money they can't afford to lose. Some simply enjoy risking there extra cash, nothing wrong with that. Its a high a rush for them in itself. A hustler is not a gambler. He preys on gamblers.

Were talking about 3 different things that coexist together.
Skill
Gambling
Hustling

Then we also have the players that think he who wins the cash is the best player. Not everyone enjoins gambling. Nether does everyone have the same amount of resource $$$. Some, "IMO most" gamblers simply can't play without the additional steak on the table.

Im of the opinion that a tournament is the best determiner of skill. Everyone has an equal amount at risk. The gambler loses his motivation unless he has some action on the side "don't get caught". The hustler has nothing to prove and risk exposing himself, that's hes really a pro player only interested in playing lesser players.


Pool and Gambling are two different "sports".
You can gamble who can hold their weenie in a light socket the longest, but it does nothing to make the sport popular.
:D
 
I have been "around" pool for 44 years and can say with much certainty that I have not ONCE been hustled. I have only played for money once in my life (to see if what they say is true about playing for $$$ will make you focus/play better), and I knew going in that I was going to be handing the guy a steady stream of twenties :o!!! I discovered a long time ago that a fool and his money are soon parted and have never fallen into the gambling trap. Hell, I ain't never even bought one single lottery ticket. EVER!!!

Maniac (knows cliches' are coined for a reason)

You just need a little "conditioning". :D
 
A hustler is someone someone looking to take advantage of anothers lesser skills. It has nothing to do with proving skills, its all about finding the fattest mark $$$ with the least skills.

Most often these marks are gamblers or for lack of a better term have a gambling problem. They go off for everything in their pocket.
A gambler with a problem IMO is someone that risk money they can't afford to lose. Some simply enjoy risking there extra cash, nothing wrong with that. Its a high a rush for them in itself. A hustler is not a gambler. He preys on gamblers.

Were talking about 3 different things that coexist together.
Skill
Gambling
Hustling

Then we also have the players that think he who wins the cash is the best player. Not everyone enjoins gambling. Nether does everyone have the same amount of resource $$$. Some, "IMO most" gamblers simply can't play without the additional steak on the table.

Im of the opinion that a tournament is the best determiner of skill. Everyone has an equal amount at risk. The gambler loses his motivation unless he has some action on the side "don't get caught". The hustler has nothing to prove and risk exposing himself, that's hes really a pro player only interested in playing lesser players.


Pool and Gambling are two different "sports".
You can gamble who can hold their weenie in a light socket the longest, but it does nothing to make the sport popular.
:D
I have to take exception with one of your contentions. I all my years I have only known one degenerate gambler who exclusively went off at pool. He was so bad his wife had him legally declared incompetent so as to get control of the business before he lost it all.
Although degenerate gamblers may play pool they don't really go off, they reserve that for the track, casino, poker or sports betting that may provide much bigger payoffs.

The real difference is you can not rationalize a pool loss. At the track a horse stumbles, in sports a ball player drops the ball, at the poker table you get beat by an outrageous draw. In none of these cases are you looked a pone as a sucker, you are respected as a gambler even when broke, you have heart.

Back to pool, when you lose at pool you were beat by the player and the longer you keep taking the beating the more foolish you look and feel. This is not the emotion that fuels a gambler, quite the opposite. It is the reason you hear so many people say they don't gamble at pool. It is personal and belittling to many people with fragile ego's.

I don't claim to be the Dr. Phil of pool but if you spend thousands of hours watching this over the years it is pretty clear. People don't like to lose personal contests such as is a pool match. I know many gamblers who do not go off for anything at pool yet will bet high at a poker table. And you also have to come back to the risk and reward. Very little can be won at pool, where as the casino have bottomless pockets. Far more attractive to a gambler, even a degenerate gambler.
 
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I don't disagree with your observation. The other venues for gamblers today are most likely part of the reason road players today have a hard time having some fun as well as making a buck. Theres a lot better action as near as the closest reservation casino. As you'll notice most don't keep tables except for tournaments.

In my opinion the attraction to gambling and pool today is the gambler has greater amount of control. In a nut shell his odds change with every new player, as compared with his ability. Thirty years ago you could go into any local players joint, and find fish that would regularly came in for a game. The players would argue "privately" over who's going to scratch this guys itch to gamble. The object was to give the fish what he needed, the need to risk without diminishing his hope of winning. They near always went out hours later, lighter in the wallet, but had a good time.

Today gamblers get the same kicks from playing the lottery, they always spend more than they win, but they enjoy it.
EDIT
To these players / gamblers, the players provided a service. The better the service the more regular the gambler came back to play.
 
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I agree with Vagabond.

Someone 'hustling' by going on the lemon, or losing to a good local player to set up a match with a lesser gambler doesn't bother me. I think most people wouldn't care too much about that. I mean it takes two to tango, so the guy getting 'hustled' by someone doing that was just trying to take money from the hustler himself, so he has no reason to cry when someone puts it back on him.

The real scumbag moves are the things Vagabond talked about, like sharking an opponent by standing in their line, wetting balls, gaming racks, and moves like that. Those are the people I think everyone can agree are dirtbags.
 
Help a guy out here, please.

What's the difference between hustling while gambling, and sandbagging in league play? After all, it's just hiding one's skill to gain an advantage in the game, right?

I find it curious that many of the folks defending hustling in this thread are often times ones who will show disdain in any thread about handicapped leagues, about sandbaggers.

Same thing, to me. Or at least damned similar. Hiding your true ability is hiding your true ability.
 
Help a guy out here, please.

What's the difference between hustling while gambling, and sandbagging in league play?

There is none, the sand baggier has to convince the league rept.

If your referring to my reply to the OP, to sandbag league play to improve his action whats the difference? Hes more concerned with action than league play. I don't practice that or condone it but your never going to separate the two. Nor are you ever going to prevent a sand bagging 9 from shooting a 7 before going to Vegas. If your paying attention they only fool you once.
Dishonest league reps are just as big a problem.
Do you have a solution to fix the world?
 
I think the word hustler carries with it very unfair connotations. What words do you think about when you hear the word hustler? "Scammer" has been mentioned, "cheater," "low-life," "scum-bag"... the list could go on right? Feel free to mention some yourself.

Yet, are these fair adjectives to describe a person who purposefully plays at a level less than his ability while at a pool table? I don't think so, in fact, I think they are very unfair and unjust associations.

What is the purpose of pool? People do have a great time while playing pool, and we all know how beneficial that is. But I want to put aside the "social player" aspect here, and talk about only one sect of pool.

What is the purpose of pool within the sect I want to discuss? TO WIN. That's it. So, let's try to keep this thread on that topic, people who are brought to pool and motivated by trying to be the best player they can be by winning as much as possible. This is not farfetched right? The point of any game is really to win.

Since I feel we have all been unjustly biased with the "scammer" and "cheater" associations mentioned previously, I think it is essential to draw analogies. We can choose them from any walk of life....

What does it take to "win" in the US as a businessman? It takes an extremely competitive spirit to win and be successful, if you're not outdoing the next guy, you are losing money. Every day, successful businessmen deceive people in very tactical, yet what I’d call ethical ways. Examples: "we don't have many of these units left" or "the price on these units is going up in 2 days" or maybe during a merger one side making the other side feel they are stable, calm and collected, when they are not. These are simple examples, and maybe you can think of some of your own, but the point is pretty much our whole system revolves around the fact that you need to deceive people at times in order to be successful.

One more example.... a strong chess player that has a tendency to be at his best when he lulls his opponent into thinking he is a weaker player. So the chess player will make his opponent think he doesn't know his plan by purposefully making "week moves", but he actually does, and uses this against him to plan his offensive moves and win the game.

If you have been reading between the lines, maybe you are already asking yourselves.... is this chess player a "scammer" and "cheater"? Is the businessman a "low-life" or a "scum-bag"?? I think we can all agree that they are not. So why are pool players labeled as such for doing the exact same types of things???

Pool is about winning and being successful too. If a good player walks into a town, and plays the first guy he sees $20 a rack, and makes the most amazing runout anybody has ever seen the first game, well, that is perfectly within his right, but he has really just lost. He's like the businessman who didn't make it because he was too fair and truthful. The real point here is, to be successful, there is almost always a certain amount of deception. Why in the world do we label pool players "scammers" when many other people out there are doing the same thing, yet they are admired and called "successful"?

Further, what is "hustling" anyway? Who is going to judge whether or not somebody is "hustling"? Is there some unwritten law in pool where one must play 100% up to his skill level all the time, or he's a hustler? Where do you draw the line? What if a player's son got in a car accident a month before... he may be playing bad, but is it your right to judge him and label him a “cheat” because he's off that day?

The truth is, we really don't have the right to judge other people's games like this. They have reached a certain level, and they are allowed to play as high or as low as they want. We should not judge them, because we don't know what is going on in their heads. Who is going to decide if they are "hustling" or not? You? If you say, "yes, me, I will judge them"... well then, you are part of the problem, not the solution. You aren't righteous for thinking this. You are actually guilty of promoting unjust stereotypes in pool. So, judge all you want, but realize you are part of the problem. You are like the teenage girl who looks at the other girls and tells herself how ugly they all are. That is really who you are. You are no better than them, in fact, you are acting below them by judging. You should not be proud of this, as perpetuating these stereotypes is bad for pool. So you are part of the problem!

Doesn't it make sense? We all sit around and wonder why pool won’t go anywhere, it makes perfect sense to me that perhaps we are all part of the problem without even knowing it!! This could be why the question of "what's the problem with pool" is so stupefying to us.

I think the term hustler, along with the connotations it carries, simply came from a time, perhaps during the depression, where it really meant being an actual bad person, ie, a thief or a person who may cause physical harm in order to gain something. These terms and the connotations are still there, yet not justly so. I really feel we all need to realize that a player has the right to play at whatever level he sees fit at any given moment, and we should not label him in our heads unless he does exhibit actual nefarious behavior.

Thanks for listening.

"you a Husler boy?? We don't like pool hustlers around here boy. Go ahead theres your money boy"!!
That is where it pretty much started and stopped!!!
 
Do you have a solution to fix the world?

Nope. I play hard, and I play honest. I wish every else would too, but I certainly don't expect it.

I still don't think "the hustle" should be as glorified as it is, but that's just me. I guess pulling off a scam is something to be proud of.
 
Nope. I play hard, and I play honest. I wish every else would too, but I certainly don't expect it.

As I do to in competition. But an afternoon out, to have some fun, no money or title on the line. I more than likely shoot to match the speed of whom ever I'm playing. Its not hustling, I'm not a gambler ether, its just an old gentlemans habit.
 
As I do to in competition. But an afternoon out, to have some fun, no money or title on the line. I more than likely shoot to match the speed of whom ever I'm playing. Its not hustling, I'm not a gambler ether, its just an old gentlemans habit.

And that is very cool. I have no issue with that. It's not in the realm of hustling.
 
Help a guy out here, please.

What's the difference between hustling while gambling, and sandbagging in league play? After all, it's just hiding one's skill to gain an advantage in the game, right?

I find it curious that many of the folks defending hustling in this thread are often times ones who will show disdain in any thread about handicapped leagues, about sandbaggers.

Same thing, to me. Or at least damned similar. Hiding your true ability is hiding your true ability.

Leagues involve other uninvolved players. It is also supposed to be fun. What two players do by themselves gambling is one thing, leagues are another. There is an understanding all players will be on the up and up even though we know many are not.
 
Leagues involve other uninvolved players. It is also supposed to be fun. What two players do by themselves gambling is one thing, leagues are another. There is an understanding all players will be on the up and up even though we know many are not.

Ah, so the understanding, while gambling, is that one, or both players will NOT be on the up and up?

I think I'm beginning to get it. Thanks.
 
Back to pool, when you lose at pool you were beat by the player and the longer you keep taking the beating the more foolish you look and feel. This is not the emotion that fuels a gambler, quite the opposite. It is the reason you hear so many people say they don't gamble at pool. It is personal and belittling to many people with fragile ego's.

I don't claim to be the Dr. Phil of pool but if you spend thousands of hours watching this over the years it is pretty clear. People don't like to lose personal contests such as is a pool match.

The reason(s) I don't gamble at pool are as follows: 1.) I worked damn hard for my money and never had the notion to place it into another man's hands. 2.) I am only a recreational player who does not consider his game adequate enough to gamble on. 3.) Have seen too many peoples lives shot down in flames with gambling "problems". It has nothing to do with my ego (which by the way is not fragile), nor does it have anything to do with not liking to lose personal contests. I had a thread recently about the reason that gambling won't elevate my game (I did it once to see if it would). My problem is, I am indifferent to the winning/losing aspect of any game/sport I participate in. I do it for the love/fun/entertainment value of it and for no other reason. As far as pool goes, it's the way I've done it for the last 44 years (and NO Pushout, I've NEVER been hustled). When people say why something is why it is remember, there are ALWAYS exceptions.

Maniac
 
I wish I could respond to all, first, thanks for the replies.

I'd like to keep my response here simple to not get too convoluted....

Oregonmeds, do you think the example I mentioned about the chess player "laying down" on his skill level to position himself to win a match or tournament warrants the term "cheater"? If so, please explain why and what you think the differences are. If not, can you see they are pretty much the same thing; the chess player is deceiving his opponent. There has just been some ingrained biases there in pool that I feel are unwarranted. Best.


There is strategy in chess and pool, playing with strategy is a whole lot different that straight up hustling. There's respecatable strategy, also disrespectable strategy it's up to you what you want to do but if the chess player can only beat a guy in a way most people don't find honest or respectable he's going to get the reputation he earned. People will be saying he only beat that guy because... He's not really that good...


I don't see much betting in chess, the object is to win with whatever it takes but if you're talking pool and gambling, hustling in it's true sense is identical to being a con man.


Do you respect a con man that swindles people out of their money in other ways? Makes a ton of money swidling old folks with water filters on the telephone or etc? I don't. I know they're fun to watch, the popluarity of the color of money or other movies with that mentaility etc, or what was that show about the tv pitch men... Entertaining yes, and people like to watch that kind of thing, but I am not going to respect the guys doing it or want to be friends with them or hang out with them. In fact I wouldn't lift a finger to protect a hustler from getting his ass kicked.

Most people don't see husters and think man I want to be friends with that guy, I sure respect him... At best they're merely entertaining.

I put them on the same level as used car salesmen who don't give an honest deal. You can be a used car salesman that sells a good product for a good price and gets word of mouth referrals and builds a respectable business and make just as much money that way, as being one of the type that just preys on suckers and trys to stick it to people as much as they can any time they can. It's your life to live and you can go either way, but I'm not going to respect both types equally as most people wouldn't. The screw every buyer used car salesman is going to get the shit reputation and the honest guy a decent one, I know where I'd shop and where I wouldn't.

Gone in 60 seconds made a lot of money, doesn't mean all the sudden people like or respect car theives.
 
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Hustling is just another form of deception. Why else are there terms like "looking for a fish"? As I said above, if you're a gambler, walk into the room and proudly announce that you are the best and defy anyone to prove otherwise. To again challenge what you stated "What is the purpose of pool within the sect I want to discuss? TO WIN. That's it. So, let's try to keep this thread on that topic, people who are brought to pool and motivated by trying to be the best player they can be by winning as much as possible" If they are trying to win and be the best PLAYER, then there should be no problem with that announcement. If they are just trying to collect money, then they are hustling. Once more, please show some examples were the loser has a smaller bankroll after losing each set.

Maybe my first post didn't get read well enough, I know it was long, but YES, hustling IS a form of deception..... just like the baseball player that gets hit by a pitch, hobbles down to first, calls out the trainer then takes off for second on the first pitch and makes it easily. This man has just deceived 30 thousand fans, and the pitcher and catcher, and everybody loves him for it. My point is, when a pool player deceives, they are looked down upon. I think we as players have a really odd habit of wanting other players to look bad, i'm not sure why, hence this thread.

The point here really is, successful people deceive everyday, and are admired for it. If you don't know or believe that, I think you are fooling yourself. The thing I feel people really are missing here is that if you take businessmen as an example, they deceieve like no other. And we aren't talking like ENRON or Ponzi scheme deception. I'm talking about deception that is actually needed in the everyday running of a business.... one must deceieve during negotiations or you wont be competitive, one must deceieve during many business transactions, and the most deceptive person "wins". War is another good example, on a battlefield the general who deceieves will have tactical advantages. A great general, no? But a pool player who does the same thing is a dead beat. Why? I think it is because we as pool players like to make other pool players look bad.

I also think you mixed up a player having a need to win (= being successful), and those who want to be the best they can be. Those are two different things. Ideally they should be after both, but that is off topic I feel.

I think long posts make things too convoluted, so i'll try to end this clearly:
to me, your logic says:

if you want to be a business man, have at it, do as you please, as it is probably necessary to be competitive. But, if you are a pool player, you must never deceive in order to win and make financial gains (and thus be successful) or you are a con-man. Why are there different standards applied? Do you think admired, successful businessmen don't target weak people at times?

This whole con-man notion we have of hustlers is simply an artefact of a time when there were probably actual dirt bags who would do physical harm to you. I'm sure these exist today as well, but they are few and far between. My point is, give the others a break -- they aren't doing anything a person who strives to be successful in any field wouldn't do.
 
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