i am a cue maker from China,want to make friends here to know your opinions

Taiwanese own the greatest factories in the world and are the best OEM&OEM cue manufacturers in the world, (their factories are usually in China), and Kao-Fa is one of them. Kao Fa and many taiwan companies also make "SW STYLE" cues (I think it is one of reasons SW is so popular in taiwan). Kao-Fan is their company name, not brand name. They usually have no their own brands.

If you have any questions about taiwan cues, you can visit http://www.cyruscues.com/index.php or http://www.cue.bz/viewforum.php?f=7&sid=e172fd38802380e76588ab574bc27b3d

Taiwanse also made sports shoes for most famous brands, notebooks&PC (ex. Acer, ASUS, Quanta....), Semiconductor (ex. TSMC...), golf clubs, moblie phones, smart phones (ex. HTC...), iPod&PS3 (ex.ASUS, Hon Hai (Foxconn).....) Wii........ In general, American and Japanese offers their brands, taiwanese offer managments, and China, Vietnam etc. offer cheaper labors and markets.
 
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ballmover said:
this might be why the rest of the world hates us. jmo and the worlds
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I don't really care if the rest of the world hates us, but I think his statement was a bit out of line given the apparent sincerity of the originator of this thread.

Joe,
I find it interesting that in the thread on the non-pool related forum about foreign workers, illegal immigrants, etc. you think it is a great thing that you can get your lawn mowed cheap and a cheap breakfast in the morning; but when it comes to a product you're involved in, you sing a different tune. Just an observation, no insult intended.

Personally, I remain consistent; if I can, I buy American because it is good for the country even if it cost a little more. Quality is not the issue for me, though I do think most hand-made custom cues are going to have better quality than a factory made cue regardless of where that factory is.
 
I don't mean to imply that decals, overlays, transfers, whatever you want to call them, are necessarily bad. I feel those types of cues have their place. I was trying to help by stating things that I have to fix on a daily basis. These are issues that plague imported cues.
 
I believe I have one of these cues. SW copy with no identification. The butt is very well made and mine is cored. All the others I have seen are not cored. The shaft wood quality is below average. The tips are junk. Value for money is good.
 
John Barton said:
They are "tributes" Joe. :-)

I guess if they are gonna copy something then that's not a bad thing to try.

Remember about 20 years ago when all that was coming out of Taiwan and China was REALLLLLLY bad decal copies of Meuuci and McDermotts? Because they were the only ones with catalogs......

I can't speak for Kao Fa but I can tell you that Kao Kao has their own in-house designers who do great stuff on their own. Inlays, Decals (the PC word is Overlays) and combination inlay/overlay designs.

I have some pretty wild inlay cues in the pipeline. I might share a design or two with AZ.

Just for kicks about 3 months ago we did a version of Thomas Wayne's snake skeleton with the inlaid leather wrap that spirals around the cue. Not to sell it but to learn how to do it. I used a laser with a rotary attachment to cut the pocket for the leather. Turned out crude but cool. They had already done a version of the skeleton inlays. Everyone starts out copying someone to some degree and builds from there.
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John,
I have no problem with their tribute cues. Hell if you have been reading at all for the last 5 years you'd know I am the last guy to say anything. Thats why I used the smiley. I don't compete with them, so I don't worry.

JV
 
catscradle said:
Joe,
I find it interesting that in the thread on the non-pool related forum about foreign workers, illegal immigrants, etc. you think it is a great thing that you can get your lawn mowed cheap and a cheap breakfast in the morning; but when it comes to a product you're involved in, you sing a different tune. Just an observation, no insult intended.

Personally, I remain consistent; if I can, I buy American because it is good for the country even if it cost a little more. Quality is not the issue for me, though I do think most hand-made custom cues are going to have better quality than a factory made cue regardless of where that factory is.
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I would like you to elaborate on what the hell I said that was different. I don't know if you are referring to my original 6 year old spraying finish comment or my SW copy comment. I will assume it was the first comment.

So that brings me to the fact I don't know of any 6 year old Mexicans mowing any lawns. I am not involved in these cues, or competing with these cues. People who sell Joss, Pechauer, Schon, Viking etc.. they need to take up the mantle here. Not me. I am just making my usual off center musings.

You also haven't been reading what I wrote regarding illegals.

JV (---Steve, no insult taken.
 
Snapshot9 said:
starts making assumptions, I went to the KF cues website and looked through their cues. All of the custom cues said 'inlay' and not overlay. I noticed the production cues did not specifically say 'inlay' in the description like the custom cues did, but they could be.

There were 4 custom cues that caught my eye, so I requested prices on them just to satisfy my curiousity. Some had inlays with alternate ivory (is that manmade ivory or water buffalo ivory??) and melamine.

They do take credit cards and Paypal, in case you're interested.
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Alternate ivory in Taiwan means the man-made white material(for instant, white plastic, ivorine 3,etc)
 
ratcues said:
I don't mean to imply that decals, overlays, transfers, whatever you want to call them, are necessarily bad. I feel those types of cues have their place. I was trying to help by stating things that I have to fix on a daily basis. These are issues that plague imported cues.
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How does the visual design of the cue and whether it is inlaid or overlaid and a copy or an original design impact the repair or the actual "quality" of the constructed piece? A Downey with But Lite stickers all over it is still a Downey right?

Are you fixing the design on a daily basis? Don't laugh, there was a guy in Germany named Peter Hackbarth that made a decent living by "redesigning" cues. It was thought that he was doing inlays but it was found later that he was using decals. Some of the designs he did were pretty sporty though. The only problem is that he charged for the work as if he were doing real inlays by hand. His business went south after it was found out he was using decals because people had been buying/selling based on his "improvements".

Had he been upfront from the beginning he could have had a nicely lucrative business and spawned a new part of the industry.
 
John Barton sez: How does the visual design of the cue and whether it is inlaid or overlaid and a copy or an original design impact the repair or the actual "quality" of the constructed piece?

Well, for one, if a cue repair guy or cuemaker put a decal cue on a lathe for a refinish, as soon as he hit the finish with sandpaper, the decals would disappear. :eek:

Martin
 
jazznpool said:
John Barton sez: How does the visual design of the cue and whether it is inlaid or overlaid and a copy or an original design impact the repair or the actual "quality" of the constructed piece?

Well, for one, if a cue repair guy or cuemaker put a decal cue on a lathe for a refinish, as soon as he hit the finish with sandpaper, the decals would disappear. :eek:

Martin
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Yes, and often times he would find a very nice piece of wood underneath. Would the decals that were added for decoration really make that cue play any different than if the wood had just been stained and clearcoated?
 
John Barton said:
Here are some original cue designs. These are all decals but we could have done almost any of them as inlay cues as well.
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I am not sure how "original" these designs truly are... I see viking elements in some, one is similar to olivier... and in this "crown" cue I am sure the wild lines are original, but the concept is borrowed.

http://www.sterlingcue.com/sterling-cues-pool-01.asp?SortID=18&id=98

I do think this cue would be really cool in all scrimshawed ivory though...

I guess I am a bit of a snob, but it frustrates me a little when a kid sees my $3,000 cue and says something like "yea, I have a cue just like that..." refering to a $99 knockoff cue...

That being said Meuccis and Mcdermotts whet my appetite as a kid... I grew into Runde Schons from there, and now I am a Snob... lol. Furys and Lucasis (and similar) are like that now for kids.
 
jazznpool said:
John Barton sez: How does the visual design of the cue and whether it is inlaid or overlaid and a copy or an original design impact the repair or the actual "quality" of the constructed piece?

Well, for one, if a cue repair guy or cuemaker put a decal cue on a lathe for a refinish, as soon as he hit the finish with sandpaper, the decals would disappear. :eek:

Martin
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Agreed if they go all the way to the wood for a refinish job. It has been my experience that it's not always necessary to take off every layer of finish to refinish a cue beautifully.

And an experienced cuemaker/repairman ought to be able to warn a customer seeking to have a decal cue refinished that there is the possibility of the design going away.

Anything else that the visual design does to impair the repair process?
 
Addicted2CuesRU said:
I am not sure how "original" these designs truly are... I see viking elements in some, one is similar to olivier... and in this "crown" cue I am sure the wild lines are original, but the concept is borrowed.

http://www.sterlingcue.com/sterling-cues-pool-01.asp?SortID=18&id=98

I do think this cue would be really cool in all scrimshawed ivory though...

I guess I am a bit of a snob, but it frustrates me a little when a kid sees my $3,000 cue and says something like "yea, I have a cue just like that..." refering to a $99 knockoff cue...

That being said Meuccis and Mcdermotts whet my appetite as a kid... I grew into Runde Schons from there, and now I am a Snob... lol. Furys and Lucasis (and similar) are like that now for kids.
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Everything has elements of something else in it. Inspiration comes from many places. When I was in Turkey I went to a museum which contained hundreds of pieces of furniture, crowns, and other pieces that had the same visual elements you find in cues today. There were inlay techniques executed on the legs of chairs that would win prizes at any cue show today. And these were done 2000 years ago by hand. Hundreds of inlays all perfectly spaced and stacked.

The point I am making is that there ARE original designs, i.e. not 1:1 copies and not just x% of difference. But no one these days can claim to have something that didn't draw it's inspiration from somewhere on some level. I look around all the time and think that such and such would make a nice cue.

And I bet you'll see in the future that someone makes a $3000 cue based of a decal design. I wouldn't doubt that somewhere along the line some cuemaker will see a decal cue and successfully build a derivative of it to the acclaim of his peers.

I used to get all worked up about seeing people with what looked like $2000 cues as well when I knew that they had no clue. Now I don't care because like you said it inspires people to go for the real thing. I firmly believe that the more complicated the decal designs get that it truly fosters more appreciation for real inlays among those who are inclined to aspire to more.

Put another way, the simulation of inlays increases the awareness of inlaid cues and increases discussion of them.

I think :-)
 
Addicted2CuesRU said:
That being said Meuccis and Mcdermotts whet my appetite as a kid... I grew into Runde Schons from there, and now I am a Snob... lol. Furys and Lucasis (and similar) are like that now for kids.
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Me too. I was totally ecstatic when I got my first Schon in 1992. $1400. But damn that cue was nice. From there I have had several Scruggs, a custom Joss, Joss West, Phillippi, several Oliviers, Jacobys, a couple SouthWests, AE cues, Espiritu, Sherm Adamson, Roland Becker, and so on... more than I can remember right now. All fantastic representations of the cue maker's craft.

I would never stand by and let any of these guys be denigrated. I guess I can see where it hurts to see their work overshadowed to a degree by the purely visual design of today's decal cues. On the other hand, like I said, perhaps the abundance has made the decal cue into kitsche and so the inlays cues are celebrated for their minimalist attributes as well. I.e. a well executed cocobolo cue with well placed ivory diamonds speaks more about elegance than a flashy decal cue.

enough already. I gotta go buy paint - for walls.

JB
 
True. The inlays/overlays have little to do with overall playability and I am not repairing the design, only construction issues. As long as the cue is marketed as "overlay" or "overlay/inlay" or "inlay," I see no problems.

Like I said, I have no problem with overlays, from a design standpoint. The original question posed was how to make imported cue better. I take that as playability and construction. Asthetically, do what you want as long as it is not a BLATANT copy. A "tribute" is different because it gives credit to the original maker. Hints of design are different than copies. I mean, everyone is influenced by someone, whether is be Viking, SW, or Bushka.
 
John Barton said:
Here are some original cue designs. These are all decals but we could have done almost any of them as inlay cues as well.
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The newest 20 or so in this line are 100% our designs. There are a few cues still in the line that take influence from other brands but they are all diamonds and spears.
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This one does not seem to be very original or 100% your design.:p
http://www.sterlingcue.com/sterling-cues-pool-01.asp?SortID=18&id=105

I believe I may have seen it done before.;):)
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John Barton said:
They are "tributes" Joe. :-)

I guess if they are gonna copy something then that's not a bad thing to try.

Remember about 20 years ago when all that was coming out of Taiwan and China was REALLLLLLY bad decal copies of Meuuci and McDermotts? Because they were the only ones with catalogs......

I can't speak for Kao Fa but I can tell you that Kao Kao has their own in-house designers who do great stuff on their own. Inlays, Decals (the PC word is Overlays) and combination inlay/overlay designs.

I have some pretty wild inlay cues in the pipeline. I might share a design or two with AZ.

Just for kicks about 3 months ago we did a version of Thomas Wayne's snake skeleton with the inlaid leather wrap that spirals around the cue. Not to sell it but to learn how to do it. I used a laser with a rotary attachment to cut the pocket for the leather. Turned out crude but cool. They had already done a version of the skeleton inlays. Everyone starts out copying someone to some degree and builds from there.
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I looked at the Tai-Can "Victory" series cues. They are very unique. I do not remember the link, though I'm sure a Google would do the trick.
 
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