I fell for the Carbon Fiber Hype

[kollegedave]

I just picked up a Jacoby Black... I was expecting changes experienced years ago when I switched from regular wood shaft to a 314. Oh boy was my expectations incorrect! I honestly don't think a regular wood shaft defects more than this JB. On a full length table playing inside english, half ball hit.. I'm lucky to hit a piece of the object ball. You can see it instantly squirt away form the line of aim. Really, I'm shocked just how bad this is. I searched the site and don't see LD listed.. So are they just making a CF that feels like wood and not LD? Cause, it feel is great, but definitely no LD. I hit 5-10 shots and wasn't close to potting a ball. CF being so great, I was looking for hits too full when playing inside because the CB wasn't deflecting. Kinda sick that I dumped over 500$.

Right when the 'Rona hit, I decided to switch to CF. I was betting that pool in public would not be a thing for awhile and I have a table at home to do the adjustment from regular maple to CF. After a bunch of research, I selected the Cuetec. However, I was thinking about getting the Jacoby and I am glad that I didn't after reading your post.

I am really happy with my purchase. For me, I think it is much easier to spin the cue ball with a the Cuetec CF. Much easier. Additionally, the Cuetec is LD, but not as low as the Revo. I worried that such a big adjustment would be too hard. This may have been a correct idea, as I have now been playing with the Cuetec for 10 months, and I am still adjusting to how reduced the deflection is.

With 10 months of play on the Cuetec, I would tell you that it is durable, straight, reduced deflection--not comparable to a Revo, but an improvement over maple, and it seems to impart more energy on the cue ball than a standard wood shaft.

I used to believe LD shafts are a gimmick, to honestly believing that I will never play with a non-LD shaft again...plus, it is $100 cheaper than the Revo. In my opinion, using the cynergy shaft makes imparting energy on the cue ball easier, and it makes simply pocketing a ball using "centerish" ball significantly easier when compared to a maple shaft.

kollegedave

 

[OldOrvis]

People use carbon fibers because they don’t ding. It isn’t about deflection. It’s about durability.

ohhhhh go on

 

[Chili Palmer]

ohhhhh go on

LOL, nothing to add but that comment followed by your signature made me laugh.

 

[The_JV]

However, I was thinking about getting the Jacoby and I am glad that I didn't after reading your post.

If you were also hoping for life changing experience with your CF purchase, then yes I guess you made the right choice. That said I hope the OP's misguided expectations aren't a measure for the JB. I haven't had the opprotunity to hit the Cynergy, so I can't provide you a dirct comparison. What I can say, is that I have the bulk of the Revo models, and every JB. Easily the best of the bunch in terms of deflection charactistics is the 11.8 JB. It doesn't out perform the Z2 in any manner, (unless you goal is to fence with it I suppose).

 

[Straightpool_99]

I just picked up a Jacoby Black... I was expecting changes experienced years ago when I switched from regular wood shaft to a 314. Oh boy was my expectations incorrect! I honestly don't think a regular wood shaft defects more than this JB. On a full length table playing inside english, half ball hit.. I'm lucky to hit a piece of the object ball. You can see it instantly squirt away form the line of aim. Really, I'm shocked just how bad this is. I searched the site and don't see LD listed.. So are they just making a CF that feels like wood and not LD? Cause, it feel is great, but definitely no LD. I hit 5-10 shots and wasn't close to potting a ball. CF being so great, I was looking for hits too full when playing inside because the CB wasn't deflecting. Kinda sick that I dumped over 500$.

The same thing is happening with carbon fiber, as was happening with other ld (laminated) shaft technology earlier.
1. Step one: Predator makes a shaft that has low deflection, because it has a hollow front end
2. Some players make the shift to the Predator shafts, while others can't, either because they're accustomed to a certain degree of deflection or dislike the hollow hit.
3. Another company makes a shaft that does not have a hollow/low deflection front end (because Predator has that patent).
4. Players that could not get used to Predator buy these other shafts, because they are more similar in hit and deflection properties than their previous shafts, but they are the "newest and greatest technology" (sigh). In reality, they could have stayed with their old shafts and worked on their games, but we know that ain't happenin'.
5. Not one player improves even the slightest bit.
6. Players who bought these new shafts sell their old ones cheap (good for us old fashioned people who need extra shafts). Then realize that the carbon fiber shaft perform the same, deflection wise, as their old ones. Some then buy their old fashioned shafts back, because they get sick of the carbon "tink".

 

[The_JV]

.......they get sick of the carbon "tink".

Took me two or three hits the first time demo'ing one of the Revos...lol

 

[Jason Robichaud]

If you were also hoping for life changing experience with your CF purchase, then yes I guess you made the right choice. That said I hope the OP's misguided expectations aren't a measure for the JB. I haven't had the opprotunity to hit the Cynergy, so I can't provide you a dirct comparison. What I can say, is that I have the bulk of the Revo models, and every JB. Easily the best of the bunch in terms of deflection charactistics is the 11.8 JB. It doesn't out perform the Z2 in any manner, (unless you goal is to fence with it I suppose).

I don't think purchasing a CF at nearly twice the price of 314 and expecting equal or improved playability is misguided. Whats unfortunate is people spending big $$ then too afraid to speak up and state "these shafts are garbage", because they want to sell and recoup some $$. If the JB played the same as a normal LD shaft but just added an little power to the shot.. I would be 100% happy. But having the same size tip, taper, very similar sound but completely unplayable - well, thats a joke. Jumping on CF hype and selling useless product for nothing more than profit is a very poor business model. I refused every CF option available and waited to buy JB because of the quality product for the $$ I got with my custom built Jacoby Cue. This purchase is like paying BMW 750I X-Drive prices but receiving a KIA Forte. If the ad stated Forte, I guarantee my chances of paying top $$ is zero!
I hit the Revo, didn't like the sound, I hit the Cuetec.. it sounded a little better and played about the same, I tried a Blais CF it sounded ok and hit about same as Revo. Having a Jacoby cue, I wanted their CF expecting similar to the previous 3 tested. Boy was I wrong! Now if I have to jump 1mm down on tip size, we are talking different sighting, contact points etc. This will take come adjustment on cueing, minor and and a few sessions. But requiring to aim on the complete opposite side of the ball for cut shots... thats beginner guess potting.

 

[Straightpool_99]

I don't think purchasing a CF at nearly twice the price of 314 and expecting equal or improved playability is misguided. Whats unfortunate is people spending big $$ then too afraid to speak up and state "these shafts are garbage", because they want to sell and recoup some $$. If the JB played the same as a normal LD shaft but just added an little power to the shot.. I would be 100% happy. But having the same size tip, taper, very similar sound but completely unplayable - well, thats a joke. Jumping on CF hype and selling useless product for nothing more than profit is a very poor business model. I refused every CF option available and waited to buy JB because of the quality product for the $$ I got with my custom built Jacoby Cue. This purchase is like paying BMW 750I X-Drive prices but receiving a KIA Forte. If the ad stated Forte, I guarantee my chances of paying top $$ is zero!
I hit the Revo, didn't like the sound, I hit the Cuetec.. it sounded a little better and played about the same, I tried a Blais CF it sounded ok and hit about same as Revo. Having a Jacoby cue, I wanted their CF expecting similar to the previous 3 tested. Boy was I wrong! Now if I have to jump 1mm down on tip size, we are talking different sighting, contact points etc. This will take come adjustment on cueing, minor and and a few sessions. But requiring to aim on the complete opposite side of the ball for cut shots... thats beginner guess potting.

I think the Cuetec is more or less in the same ballpark as the 314 deflection wise, at least closer than what you describe the JB as being. The quality seems ok from what I've been able to test. I don't use carbon shafts myself, though I have tested quite a few of them.

From what you say, I think you'd be better served sticking with 314 shafts. If you have problems with the shaft being sticky, then maybe a carbon shaft can solve that problem, but that's about the extent of it. They may be more durable too, if you have a habit of dinging up your shafts. IMO it's not worth the price, but that's for you to decide for yourself.

I've never been able to get more power, less deflection etc with a carbon shaft than I allready can get with a Z2 shaft I have lying around.

The problem with all shafts trying to get super low deflection is the hollow feeling and sound due to the hollow front end needed for true ld performance. That is true of any material. For a long time Predator also had this patented. The solution for other manufacturers was then to fill the void needed with crap, to get around the patent, which necessarily is heavier than air (no matter what it is), reducing ld performance. They used various kinds of foam, chinese newspapers, cork, whatever else they managed to dream up. (OB, some McDermotts and others) The shafts then felt like hollow shafts filled with crap. Others just plain used the same material as predator for the shaft itself, but they just didn't hollow it out at all (Tiger, some Meuccis and others). Great, now it feels nice, but has no ld performance to speak of. Granted, some would use lightweight, short ferrules, which help a little bit, but nothing like a hollow front end. Also, any shaft can have that added, don't need carbon or laminated wood for that.

A good rule is than when a shaft feels more "solid" than a Predator equivalent at the same diameter, it's because it IS more solid. Solid here meaning heavier, made with thicker material or filled with heavy crap, which reduces ld performance.

 

[The_JV]

I don't think purchasing a CF at nearly twice the price of 314 and expecting equal or improved playability is misguided.

Apologies Jason. My remark wasn't meant to be disparaging in any sort.

Unless I'm misunderstanding the situation. You bought a Jacoby CF shaft without demo'ing before hand, and expected a massive increase in performance as compared to a upgrade you made with different products years ago. Considering "playability" is a subjective opinion, and you had no one telling you to expect what you expected.... Wouldn't you consider your hopes to be nothing more than assumption...? Just because a product is expensive doesn't mean it will do what you expect. That's all I meant by misguided

 

[S.Vaskovskyi]

I believe would pool as a sport be organized and offer similar rewards to the players (prize money plus those extra $$$ also coming from non billiard related companies) as snooker does to their players ... well then some could see what it is all about and what does matter the most.
I would not be surprised if some of those chinese pool cueists win playing with their snooker style old school equipment if some real money was played in the event.
What an upset would it be for those having their pro-teams sponsored, marketers and so on.
Unfortunately real money in pool as a sport ... it may never happen.
I wish Matchroom a success though and I hope they succeed with their plans regarding pool.

 

[Jason Robichaud]

Apologies Jason. My remark wasn't meant to be disparaging in any sort.

Unless I'm misunderstanding the situation. You bought a Jacoby CF shaft without demo'ing before hand, and expected a massive increase in performance as compared to a upgrade you made with different products years ago. Considering "playability" is a subjective opinion, and you had no one telling you to expect what you expected.... Wouldn't you consider your hopes to be nothing more than assumption...? Just because a product is expensive doesn't mean it will do what you expect. That's all I meant by misguided

The product advertises as ultra low deflection. Hope/expectations was high based on all other CF shafts claims and the LD description. At minimum if JB delivered same performance as wood LD, I wouldn't mind. I did hit with a Jacoby Black but it was just strictly for sound and feel. compared to others I tested. It felt and sounded great and very, very close to wood. My error in expectation was not factoring in an inferior product. Why would anyone make a product that cost more with less performance with claims stating otherwise? This shaft should not have LD anywhere near the description of it. CF, Jacoby, Black, Kamui tip.. yep. LD, not a chance unless compared to a broom handle.

 

[Jason Robichaud]

Fair enough, but I'm talking about other players. If I'm in a pool room and I see someone playing with something I'd like to try out. I generally just strike up a conversation about said equipment, and that nearly always ends up in an offer to try it out. I guess it's easy to say when you're generally not an early adopter like myself and the equipment has been in circulation for a bit. This also works waaay better in your local hall...lol. Stranger danger..!!!

You comment is exactly why I didn't go with a pure bred custom cue recently. I'm not investing thousands of the off chance I may like something.

I would have tried one extensively but unfortunately l live in a remote area with zero JB within driving distance. On a trip 1000 miles from home I had a chance to hit 4 or 5 balls. Again, I was just checking the sound and feel compared to REVO. It was a tough decision and now I'm paying the price. I called with concerns, but didn't have results (again) I was hoping for... They are not LD compared to LD shafts is the answer I got. Apparently no CF will ever play with less deflection than wood LD. Suggested was - I need time for adjustment to more deflection.

 

[The_JV]

They are not LD compared to LD shafts is the answer I got.

So..., they're LD unless compared to a better LD shaft...?..., nice.

Apparently no CF will ever play with less deflection than wood LD. Suggested was - I need time for adjustment to more deflection.

That's interesting. I wonder why.... Supposedly the only consideration worth noting when speaking of deflection and CB squirt is a shaft's "end mass". I looked up the specific gravity of hard maple (.72) and "aerospace CF composite"(~1.8), so it is over twice as dense.., I think...lol. The unknown is the amount of material used in either a Z2 or JB 11.8mm for example. I'm clueless on how to determine the end-mass, but there's a ton of construction variables that would alter the results.

 

[S.Vaskovskyi]

To tell the truth it was already mentioned about looking for possibilities to try at the table first before paying a premium price.
Of course once all those cf shafts started to appear and become popular with so much talking about ... well I was curious and I just used any possibility to try myself those I could so to have my own opinion. If me living in Ukraine where pool is so small comparing to piramid could get those possibilities to try then in the USA I believe it's more than possible. I don't see myself buying $$$ shaft without even testing it. I'm glad I have such a need/preference for a 31" shaft that it made it even more comlicated plus so as I started to master cue-building myself ... well I just experienced that I enjoy much more what I built for myself to my own preferences and I can modify it as much as I want/need till I'm satisfied.
The wood allows some more space for that comparing to cf and I'm glad my 12 y.o. old pupil is now happy playing with a cf shaft I've built for myself firstly. I'm glad I have my experience either with testing/some play or building cf shafts.
When it comes to your purchase JB why not apply to Jacoby with your experience and at the end ask if there are any options to make you satisfied with their product... you may like their LD hybrid edge or newer ultra shaft better than black ... and lets say take two of their laminated LD shafts for black or whatever they offer to you. Why not to ask?
It's just more constructive to look what can be done now).

 

[S.Vaskovskyi]

Apparently no CF will ever play with less deflection than wood LD. Suggested was - I need time for adjustment to more deflection.

If a deflection is your major concern than you might be wrong. Just some common sense... where you can achieve less end mass??? With cf and those thin walls (depending on the manufacturer vary from 0.9 to 1.2 or some more also depending if it's a playing or breaking shaft). With a wood you are more limited and you also have to go to a smaller tip size and so on. So when it comes to deflection in this respect I believe cf shafts are going to offer lower deflection comparing to wood. New Revo 11.8 is an example but one has to reinvent his game with it and for one who is already at the top of his game is there a reason for that?
It could be a good tool for the kids mastering the game but with that price policy I don't see it yet...

 

[Jason Robichaud]

To tell the truth it was already mentioned about looking for possibilities to try at the table first before paying a premium price.
Of course once all those cf shafts started to appear and become popular with so much talking about ... well I was curious and I just used any possibility to try myself those I could so to have my own opinion. If me living in Ukraine where pool is so small comparing to piramid could get those possibilities to try then in the USA I believe it's more than possible. I don't see myself buying $$$ shaft without even testing it. I'm glad I have such a need/preference for a 31" shaft that it made it even more comlicated plus so as I started to master cue-building myself ... well I just experienced that I enjoy much more what I built for myself to my own preferences and I can modify it as much as I want/need till I'm satisfied.
The wood allows some more space for that comparing to cf and I'm glad my 12 y.o. old pupil is now happy playing with a cf shaft I've built for myself firstly. I'm glad I have my experience either with testing/some play or building cf shafts.
When it comes to your purchase JB why not apply to Jacoby with your experience and at the end ask if there are any options to make you satisfied with their product... you may like their LD hybrid edge or newer ultra shaft better than black ... and lets say take two of their laminated LD shafts for black or whatever they offer to you. Why not to ask?
It's just more constructive to look what can be done now).

I have a perfectly good 314 and wouldn't switch for different wood LD. I wanted to try CF for the extra spin/power created. I did call and let them know the issue, as I stated above. The reply was - it's normal for that shaft. I don't live in the USA and there isn't another JB in my area to try. I researched what I could but I can tell you nothing is stating the actual amount of deflection this shaft has. Hopefully someone looking at these shafts will take a read and proceed with caution if currently using a wood LD shaft. I do believe someone using a normal wood shaft will love the JB. I have no complaint other than deflection amount. I believe Jacoby will be much better positions if advertised as just CF shaft and an upgrade over normal wood shaft.

I play strong with current Jacoby that I had custom made years ago that included a 314 . I have won matches against players rated as high as 780s Fargorate. I wasn't expecting the JB to increase my level from beginner to professional. I was just hopping for small gains to help grind out a few more matches.

 

[Jason Robichaud]

If a deflection is your major concern than you might be wrong. Just some common sense... where you can achieve less end mass??? With cf and those thin walls (depending on the manufacturer vary from 0.9 to 1.2 or some more also depending if it's a playing or breaking shaft). With a wood you are more limited and you also have to go to a smaller tip size and so on. So when it comes to deflection in this respect I believe cf shafts are going to offer lower deflection comparing to wood. New Revo 11.8 is an example but one has to reinvent his game with it and for one who is already at the top of his game is there a reason for that?
It could be a good tool for the kids mastering the game but with that price policy I don't see it yet...

Maybe this JB shaft is defective, but I can tell you that compared to a 314 with around a 12.5mm tip (jacoby 12.3).. the 314 deflects much, much less. slow, med, or firm hits the JB takes off immediately. They explained the CF shafts are stiff. This doesn't allow the shaft to move out of way like wood LD. So the Shaft deflects the ball rather than the ball deflects the shaft. I don't want to jump down to a 11mm tip, I prefer the 12+ range.

 

[The_JV]

Maybe this JB shaft is defective, but I can tell you that compared to a 314 with around a 12.5mm tip (jacoby 12.3).. the 314 deflects much, much less. slow, med, or firm hits the JB takes off immediately. They explained the CF shafts are stiff. This doesn't allow the shaft to move out of way like wood LD. So the Shaft deflects the ball rather than the ball deflects the shaft. I don't want to jump down to a 11mm tip, I prefer the 12+ range.

It's been explained to me on this forum that stiffness has no bearing on deflection properties of shafts. Who am I to argue

 

[jay helfert]

Really good seasoned shaft wood does not ding nearly as easily as less quality shaft wood from my experience. I rarely ding my maple shafts- but when it happens; I use a combo of a teapot steam directed at the ding, a solid glass rod for wood burnishing, and a final finish with 1500 -2000 grit paper. I finish it all off with a microfiber and I have always been successful in getting it back to prior to ding condition. I always start by cleaning the dinged shaft with a 91% alcohol dipped cotton rag or magic eraser prior to the ding removal process.

Works for me. I learned how to do this using a wet cloth and a regular steam iron. I would lay the damp cloth over the ding and put the tip of the hot iron on that spot, maybe for ten seconds at a time. I would then check to see if the ding was still there. If it was I would repeat this process until it was gone. The wood had now swollen to obscure the ding but needed to be sanded down to level again. That's when I bought out the 1500 grit sandpaper and gave it a light rub until I could not feel any imperfection in the shaft any more. Must have done this a few hundred times in my life and I took out some pretty bad dings. This process works well for indentations in the wood but not so well when there is narrow crevice in the shaft.

On another subject, I also prefer nice clean hard rock maple shafts for the "feel" they give you when playing. Two of the best shafts I ever owned were Jacoby Hybrids made for my Josey cue. I never tried a Jacoby Black shaft but if it's CF I probably wouldn't like it as much.

 

[garczar]

Works for me. I learned how to do this using a wet cloth and a regular steam iron. I would lay the damp cloth over the ding and put the tip of the hot iron on that spot, maybe for ten seconds at a time. I would then check to see if the ding was still there. If it was I would repeat this process until it was gone. The wood had now swollen to obscure the ding but needed to be sanded down to level again. That's when I bought out the 1500 grit sandpaper and gave it a light rub until I could not feel any imperfection in the shaft any more. Must have done this a few hundred times in my life and I took out some pretty bad dings. This process works well for indentations in the wood but not so well when there is narrow creavous in the shaft.

I use a toothpick to apply good 'ol spit. Only fill the dent, that way you only raise the dent and not surrounding area. It is slower for sure but i usually do it watching sports, smoking a good gar and having some bourbon. No rush in my neighborhood.