i filmed myself shooting. I Dont like what I see

Can't really compare the two when the snooker table uses smaller balls and smaller pockets on a larger playing field. There is no margin for error. Whereas the pool table has less balls thus fewer obstructions and the pockets are cut like funnels.

Also, the nap of the cloth on snooker tables changes how and when we can use left/right hand side. One particular shot that I play on tables that I am familiar with is using the nap to pot a ball that was otherwise blocked by another ball.... get the pace right and the object ball can curve by the width of a ball. Yes, we also play side to alter the object balls path... not just to curve the cue ball but also to throw the object ball that was otherwise not on.

From my experience of pool, why would anyone play safe if they can see the ball on... a clearance is always on.
Depends on the pool table. U.S. bar tables and others have funnel cut pockets. Diamond and Predator have straight cut pockets that are more stingy than the rest.

In 8 ball it is common for better players to play safe if a makeable shot does not lead to a run out,
 
Can't really compare the two when the snooker table uses smaller balls and smaller pockets on a larger playing field. There is no margin for error. Whereas the pool table has less balls thus fewer obstructions and the pockets are cut like funnels.

Also, the nap of the cloth on snooker tables changes how and when we can use left/right hand side. One particular shot that I play on tables that I am familiar with is using the nap to pot a ball that was otherwise blocked by another ball.... get the pace right and the object ball can curve by the width of a ball. Yes, we also play side to alter the object balls path... not just to curve the cue ball but also to throw the object ball that was otherwise not on.

From my experience of pool, why would anyone play safe if they can see the ball on... a clearance is always on.
Fewer obstructions in pool? How can bigger balls on a smaller surface make for fewer obstructions than small balls on a big surface lol? Plus in pool you actually have to move through all those obstacles as playing full table multi rail shots is very common place. You can play really good snooker if you have solid command of the CB with no rail and 1 rail shots mostly. If you don't know precisely which diamond you will be contacting or heading at on the third rail in pool, you can't play to a high level.

Again, I think you are judging pool by TV games like 9b and 10b that require position plays to areas on the correct side of balls. If you look at 1pocket or str8 pool, which demand very precise CB placement not unlike snooker play around the pack, pool players have every bit the highest level of CB control just like top snooker players.

Your last statement is just sheer ignorance. Yes, the pots are easy in pool...they are supposed to be (and this is partially why I hate the shift to 4" and smaller pockets in pool). The game is a puzzle game that you solve and get out. You should get out often, but you have to know high percentage plays and high percentage routes around the table that take trouble out of play... lack of this knowledge is precisely why potting machine snooker pros get slapped by pool pros even in simple games like 9b. If we are going to include pattern plays and shot selection under the 'position play' umbrella, then pool players have a more robust positional game for sure. There are just more shots to know bc the zero margin for error potting in snooker makes many of the standard advanced shots in pool non-existent outside of exhibition play in snooker.

But I'm not even arguing pool players play better position. I just had a bone to pick with the comment that snooker players play better position....they don't. Pool players are every bit as precise with CB placement as showcased in games that force them to play precise position. It just so happens that the game they play also requires them to learn and master more shots.

It is obvious that potting requirements are higher in snooker. With all those big balls on a smaller surface and the requirement to play multi rail shots fairly often, it should be fairly obvious the demands on position play on a pool table are more severe. At the very least, pool players and snooker players play equally good position at the top levels of the game.
 
Agreed. Having played 14:1, 8-ball, 9-ball, 10-ball and 15 ball rotation on pool tables, there is a mix of difficulty, with the first 2 being the most challenging, especially if you are on a 7 ft Diamond or Predator with straight cut pockets (Diamond "Pro-cut" shown below). Playing 8 ball on one of these requires precision shape to to run out, especially after the break when most of the opponents balls are still on the table.

Although it has been quite a while since I played snooker I found it did sharpen my ability to pot the balls "center pocket."

Diamond corner pocket.jpg
 
Having a video of ones shooting in match play I think would be even more helpful. because.......for me.
When practicing, I find it difficult to give the shot the same amount of focus, awareness and importance.
My body/waggle of walking up to the shot I find is slightly different when cutting a ball to the left or right before I set my hand on table.
Personally, walking up to every shot Exactly the same way to me, does not feel natural.
To improve, one must listen to your mind/watch your shot results and adjust ones walk up before ''your down & done''.
I think all players.... cut shots one direction better, than cutting balls the other direction.
Ever wonder why?


What I found odd was that in my early years I favored cutting balls to my left. Now after a couple decade lay-off, I am more comfortable cutting to my right and I am right handed and right eye dominant.

Not something keeping me up nights but I do wonder why I swapped directions like that. I feel like I get a better view cutting to my left. I guess the way I shoot the less seen the better?(grin)

Hu
 
I finally decided to prop my phone up, and film myself shooting. I dont like what I see. My stroke is wobbly and looks terrible. I had no idea how bad it was. I feel good shooting, and do get good results. I have been playing for 18 years, and am the 2nd/3rd best player on my league out of 40 plus people, and there are some very decent players on it. I just feel sort of stalled out in my game, like I am not improving at all. I came across this video of thorsten and mike massey explaining how to do a simple pre shot routine to get yourself properly aligned for the shot. I have never seen/been taught anything like this. I am pretty certain I am not properly positioned when getting down on the shot and stroking. One thing I know is that the cue is firmly planted against my side while stroking. Not sure if this is good or bad. If you havent filmed yourself shooting, try it. Even if you think you have a great stroke and or play pretty good, you may be surprised at what you see. I am going to make it a point to use this method when approaching every shot, and see how it goes.
I was lucky to have a mentor early in my pool journey that took seriously his method of getting down onto a shot. Hereinafter called PSR or Pre-Shot Routine. Early on, I was really screwed up, and my mentor helped straighten me out. Since then, I have embarked on my own experience of finding good, better, and flawed PSRs for me. I don't claim to know everything, but I do think I have some gifts from my early coach that I can pass on to you, and some hard won knowledge. Please, take what you like or don't.

1. Consider a repeatable set of steps that has your bridge hand reaching for the cue shaft, as you drop onto the shot. Full disclosure, I opt to not use this now. However, I find something about this to be intuitive and comfortable even when I am not used to it. One good player that uses something akin to this (at times) is Jayson Shaw. Initially, the idea of reaching for the cue shaft helped to move my body out of a tangled uncomfortable mess to something more conventional.

2. Many very good and great players have a backhand grip that has their backhand thumb pointed directly down. The next most common grip is exactly the same except the first knuckle on the back hand thumb is bent slightly, but it is otherwise pointed down. The advantage of this grip (I think) is that it minimizes stresses or pressures on the cue as it moves, and it makes a repeatable stroke easier, more comfortable, and secure. However, creating a PSR where your grip always gets into this position at cue ball address isn't as easy as you might think.

3. I am a fan of Mark Wilson as a person. However, his pre-shot routine isn't for me. I do think his idea that a back swing should be between 1.2 and 1.8 seconds is a new and important observation. People will say "Joe Champion" has a quick back swing, so I don't need a slow one. Maybe, if they want to practice as much as Joe Champion. The other option is to just pick a superior method of playing. A slow back swing is important because a pool stroke is very vulnerable to inaccuracy at the transition from back to forward. It is so vulnerable that some players choose to start their forward swing with an exaggerated "creep" to ensure a controlled beginning--see Francisco Bustamante or Cicero Murphy. Of course, Francisco Bustemante is able to accomplish his great forward stroke after a series of wild back swings. Imitate him at your peril is my 0.02 on that. Other players favor a distinct pause at the back swing--Buddy Hall and Chris Melling. However you accomplish it, you need to produce a forward swing that is straight, repeatable, and GRADUALLY accelerating. The PSR you choose, in my opinion, would be wise to employ a controlled back swing and a method to ensure a gradual and "un-rushed" beginning to your forward stroke. Maybe, a controlled back swing isn't always required for the gradual and unrushed forward swing, but I do think it creates the conditions where the better forward swing is easier to execute.

4. Many European players employ a PSR where they stand at approximately 45 degrees to the shot line, behind the shot, and simply step forward sliding their bridge hand down the shaft--Fedor Gorst, Max Lechner, and Thorsten Hohmann are several players that use a version of this. However, I think this is popular, so if you look for it, you will see a lot of players using some version of this now.

5. You need to consider how far away you will be at cue ball address. Personally, I think I benefited from moving closer to the cue ball. However, I am not very tall (5'9") and for a very long time I held the cue at the very back. This is suboptimal (for me), in my view. I think it limits my ability to accelerate THROUGH the cue ball. Some players that are noticeably closer to the cue ball than most, ( they naturally tend to be shorter)--Carlo B, Jeffrey Ignacio, and Dennis Orcollo.

6. Understand that repeating the same movement into a shot is not as easy as you think. Sometimes small innocuous movements create different ending results at cue ball address. Keep a journal to help you understand what you actually do, what you want to do, and what you don't want to do.

7. I found some value in Lee Brett's book on this topic. It is short and cheap; you might want to pick it up.

8. Once you find a PSR you think is good enough, DO NOT MESS WITH IT. I learned this the hard way.

kollegedave
 
I was lucky to have a mentor early in my pool journey that took seriously his method of getting down onto a shot. Hereinafter called PSR or Pre-Shot Routine. Early on, I was really screwed up, and my mentor helped straighten me out. Since then, I have embarked on my own experience of finding good, better, and flawed PSRs for me. I don't claim to know everything, but I do think I have some gifts from my early coach that I can pass on to you, and some hard won knowledge. Please, take what you like or don't.

1. Consider a repeatable set of steps that has your bridge hand reaching for the cue shaft, as you drop onto the shot. Full disclosure, I opt to not use this now. However, I find something about this to be intuitive and comfortable even when I am not used to it. One good player that uses something akin to this (at times) is Jayson Shaw. Initially, the idea of reaching for the cue shaft helped to move my body out of a tangled uncomfortable mess to something more conventional.

2. Many very good and great players have a backhand grip that has their backhand thumb pointed directly down. The next most common grip is exactly the same except the first knuckle on the back hand thumb is bent slightly, but it is otherwise pointed down. The advantage of this grip (I think) is that it minimizes stresses or pressures on the cue as it moves, and it makes a repeatable stroke easier, more comfortable, and secure. However, creating a PSR where your grip always gets into this position at cue ball address isn't as easy as you might think.

3. I am a fan of Mark Wilson as a person. However, his pre-shot routine isn't for me. I do think his idea that a back swing should be between 1.2 and 1.8 seconds is a new and important observation. People will say "Joe Champion" has a quick back swing, so I don't need a slow one. Maybe, if they want to practice as much as Joe Champion. The other option is to just pick a superior method of playing. A slow back swing is important because a pool stroke is very vulnerable to inaccuracy at the transition from back to forward. It is so vulnerable that some players choose to start their forward swing with an exaggerated "creep" to ensure a controlled beginning--see Francisco Bustamante or Cicero Murphy. Of course, Francisco Bustemante is able to accomplish his great forward stroke after a series of wild back swings. Imitate him at your peril is my 0.02 on that. Other players favor a distinct pause at the back swing--Buddy Hall and Chris Melling. However you accomplish it, you need to produce a forward swing that is straight, repeatable, and GRADUALLY accelerating. The PSR you choose, in my opinion, would be wise to employ a controlled back swing and a method to ensure a gradual and "un-rushed" beginning to your forward stroke. Maybe, a controlled back swing isn't always required for the gradual and unrushed forward swing, but I do think it creates the conditions where the better forward swing is easier to execute.

4. Many European players employ a PSR where they stand at approximately 45 degrees to the shot line, behind the shot, and simply step forward sliding their bridge hand down the shaft--Fedor Gorst, Max Lechner, and Thorsten Hohmann are several players that use a version of this. However, I think this is popular, so if you look for it, you will see a lot of players using some version of this now.

5. You need to consider how far away you will be at cue ball address. Personally, I think I benefited from moving closer to the cue ball. However, I am not very tall (5'9") and for a very long time I held the cue at the very back. This is suboptimal (for me), in my view. I think it limits my ability to accelerate THROUGH the cue ball. Some players that are noticeably closer to the cue ball than most, ( they naturally tend to be shorter)--Carlo B, Jeffrey Ignacio, and Dennis Orcollo.

6. Understand that repeating the same movement into a shot is not as easy as you think. Sometimes small innocuous movements create different ending results at cue ball address. Keep a journal to help you understand what you actually do, what you want to do, and what you don't want to do.

7. I found some value in Lee Brett's book on this topic. It is short and cheap; you might want to pick it up.

8. Once you find a PSR you think is good enough, DO NOT MESS WITH IT. I learned this the hard way.

kollegedave
That little creep to have a controlled beginning is SUPER helpful on tougher shots. You’ll see SVB doing it on certain shots, but it’s subtle.

Also, OP, your question of whether you should have your cue against your body as guide: I know snooker players advocate for that, but after trying it for -months- then going back to a free flowing cue out of curiosity, i much prefer the free flowing cue. Not a fan of it rubbing against my body.
 
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That little creep to have a controlled beginning is SUPER helpful on tougher shots. You’ll see SVB doing it on certain shots, but it’s subtle.

Also, OP, your question of whether you should have your cue against your body as guide: I know snooker players advocate for that, but after trying it for -months- then going back to a free flowing cue, out of curiosity, i much prefer the free flowing cue. Not a fan of it rubbing against my body.
i had a lesson today with an instructor and the reason the cue touches my side is my stroke arm is cocked inwards a bit. This is why I didnt like the video of me playing. It results in a wobbly looking stroke. Oddly enough, i have been doing this forever, and have won tournaments and am a 7.3 on my league (highest is 8). Changing it feels alien to me, but I now need to work on correcting it. How did you get the cue to ride up against your side without throwing your stroke arm out of allignment?
 
I used my phone to record a local player from the rear who was having issues with pocketing. He said it used to be a no-brainer and now he couldn't pocket long shots. When I showed him the video he was horrified to see that he was now swinging his cue hand to the side, and not by a small amount.

When I was fixing my stroke I set up a vidcam on a tripod behind me in the same way. Instead of recording it (too much delay between act and replay) I ran HDMI over to a TV set up such that I could watch the live video of what was happening on the TV, which is set up at table level so that I can view it while down on the shot. I made adjustments to what I was doing so that it looked good and my test shot making (long straight-in) was solid.

Most importantly, I noted how my stroke felt compared to what it felt like before. Since I can't ordinarily watch from behind, making sure that it feels right when I am playing a match has made all the difference in my stroke.
To me this is the most important angle to video. Most instructors do not emphasize this.
 
I wonder why. It was obvious that I had to record him from the rear because I could clearly see the issues from that viewpoint.

At home I had already tried the frontal and side views but couldn't see what was going wonky. And It did feel like something was wrong was going on.

Recording or live viewing of the cue from the rear shows the shoulder, elbow, wrist, grip, straightness or lack thereof. Seeing it live in front of me when down on the shot, trying different things was invaluable to me. I came up with something that is easy and unforced.

There are a lot of moving parts to a stroke!
 
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