I got a rattle.

[seahorse1877]

Help, I got a cue that I put a butt sleeve and butt cap on. I made this cue from scratch so I checked after my A-joint went together, no buzz. I finished it up took a pass on it to get it close to final size and I tapped it on my palm and "buzz". My question is, I have already cut off the butt sleeve thinking that was were the problem was but I am afraid it is in the A-joint. How do I replace the handle, do I cut it below the screw and then heat the screw up to get it out or is there a better way. I need your help, thanks.

 

[qbilder]

deleted.......

 

[Bill the Cat]

Cut me Mick!

I don't know of any other way to get it apart

You'll also want to check the forearm carefully. If you hydro-locked the joint when you were assembling the handle to the forearm, the pressure may have cracked/split the forearm. That could give you a buzz as well.

 

[KJ Cues]

This at first may appear to be a negative but can quickly become a positive if you want it to be. It's all a matter of perspective or how you care to look at it. Consider it a learning experience and learn everything you can from it.

Whenever you disassemble a cue, something is going to be trashed. The wrap handle becomes the most likely candidate because it's easily replaced and it's not a lot of money.
The method you suggested sounds interesting but I can't speak on it because I've never done it that way. It should work though, you just need to be very careful with the heat.

Rather than tell you how to do it, I'll just tell you how I do it and if you read something that's helpful, then by all means, feel free to use it.

I cut through the wrap-handle just below the forearm (assuming the tenon is going frwd into the forearm). The butt-sleeve is removed if you haven't already. You can set what's left of the handle aside and save it for another project.
Next I chuck, center & true the forearm in the lathe with the 'A' jnt. end just barely sticking out. This keeps the area that you'll be working on encased and supported by the chuck. How well do you like carbide tooling?

I mount a carbide 3/8" 4 flute center-cutting end-mill in my drill chuck, mounted in the tailstock. Mill out the metal and build your 'A' joint again the same way you would for a fresh build.

There are many ways to build an 'A' joint and quite possibly yours is done differently. But basically the premise is the same: get the metal out and start over. Whether the buzz was in the handle or the forearm, with my method, I've eliminated both suspects. Your heat method should accomplish the same thing.

 

[qbilder]

Your answers to why folks look down on builders who use pre-made blanks is right here. If you don't even know how to build your own components, then why should anybody put faith in your ability to contstruct an entire cue to a high degree of quality? Case in point, this thread. I'm only guessing but is it perhaps an expensive pointed prather forearm you are trying to salvage?

Here's some real advice. Go buy a bunch of cheap wood & build a bunch of mock-up cues. Try different construction techniques, adhesives, tapers, etc. & then cut them up & beat them up and work on your repair skills. Spend some time learning in as cost effective way as you can. You'll learn a lot more in your shop than you will looking for spoon fed knowledge here. By the time you learn how to correctly construct a solid cue, my guess is that you'll be building your parts rather than buying them, anyway.

 

[Russell Cues]

I agree with KJ and qbuilder, you mentioned that you made the cue from scratch, in that case look at how you constructed the forearm, points as well as the a-joint. I can understand wanting to salvage a piece you worked on or if you purchased a pre-made front either way. When I started I bought a LOT of wood for fronts handles etc, and I ran several different a-joint styles and butt sleeve techniques and so on.

From expeirence I can tell you this, have patience, I think of the carpenters moto, measure twice cut once. KJ's method of removing the handle/a-joint will give you the best results imo, heating the pin can be tricky and to much heat can crack the front or cause a warp possibly.

Look at your a-joint constuction and check your tolerances. Qbuilder again has a good point, buy some less expensive wood, something you can afford to waste if needed and build several cues with different a-joints, finsh sizes, taper etc and this will give you a better idea of the kind of construction you want to use.

 

[seahorse1877]

Well Qbuilder that was rather mean, I was just looking for different tips on how to solve a problem. The forearm is a Cocobolo front I have been cutting and turning for over a year. I am new to this, have never had to take one apart before and I thought all of the nice people on here could help me. I thought that would be the absolute least costly way. I don't know were the rattle is, just assuming its from the A-joint and I don't have enough experience yet to make an educated guess. I am just trying to keep the cues "colateral damage" to a minimum.

 

[LGSM3]

Well Qbuilder that was rather mean,

well, his name aint SugarCoat!

 

[cueman]

Well Qbuilder that was rather mean, I was just looking for different tips on how to solve a problem. The forearm is a Cocobolo front I have been cutting and turning for over a year. I am new to this, have never had to take one apart before and I thought all of the nice people on here could help me. I thought that would be the absolute least costly way. I don't know were the rattle is, just assuming its from the A-joint and I don't have enough experience yet to make an educated guess. I am just trying to keep the cues "colateral damage" to a minimum.

It may be a contruction method that can be solved easily. Maybe even without having to remove the screw. Let's see if we can walk you through trouble shooting it.
Was there a phenolic ring in the A-joint?
Did you fill the joint completely with glue?
If so, how did you relieve the glue pressure while screwing it together?
What kind of glue did you use?
Did you glue the pin in one side and let it dry first?
If so, was there any noticeable wobble in the pin after gluing it in one side?
My advice is hold off on cutting it apart until we cover the above questions. Then we should be able to suggest a good way to proceed and eliminate the problem in the future.
We also need to know if you want to save the butt sleeve area of the cue.
It will help to know the diameter of the cue at each end.

 

[qbilder]

Well Qbuilder that was rather mean, I was just looking for different tips on how to solve a problem. The forearm is a Cocobolo front I have been cutting and turning for over a year. I am new to this, have never had to take one apart before and I thought all of the nice people on here could help me. I thought that would be the absolute least costly way. I don't know were the rattle is, just assuming its from the A-joint and I don't have enough experience yet to make an educated guess. I am just trying to keep the cues "colateral damage" to a minimum.

I wasn't being mean. I was being blunt. If I wanted to be mean, I wouldn't have offered you advice. I gave up being diplomatic or politically correct because it breeds confusion. I'd rather folks know exactly where i'm coming from & what i'm saying even if it leads them to believe i'm being an ass, which is not the case.

There are things you need to learn as a cuemaker that cannot be taught. You gotta put in the time & effort and learn what it's like to fail, as well as feel the pain of losing all that invested time & money. Don't be afraid of screwing up. Meet it with a positive attitude & use those screw ups as opportunities to learn & practice repairs. If you knew enough to put the cue together, then you should dang well know enough to cut it apart. Suck it up & start cutting. No matter if you succeed or fail, the lesson you'll learn from doing it will be worth many times over the cost of those materials. If you are afraid of failure or can't afford sacrificing failure for knowledge, then you are taking up the wrong hobby or profession. Cuemaking is expensive. Anybody who tells you otherwise doesn't know any more than you do.

 

[seahorse1877]

I have already decided on cutting it and finding the answer, sorry if I was coming across harshly. I respect honest answers, guess I just took it wrong. I was just wanting to know the best way to go about it. Thanks for the tips, kind of look forward to cutting it in half, is that sadistic or what?

 

[cueman]

I have already decided on cutting it and finding the answer, sorry if I was coming across harshly. I respect honest answers, guess I just took it wrong. I was just wanting to know the best way to go about it. Thanks for the tips, kind of look forward to cutting it in half, is that sadistic or what?

Cutting it apart may or may not tell you what caused the buzz. Answering the questions I listed might actually get you more help than you may think.

 

[manwon]

I like KJ's idea and he certainly has more experience than me, but I do not have the tooling that he has so this is how I would do it.

I would cut the handle below Pin and heat and turn the old A-joint pin out.

Then I would turn the remainder of the old Tenon down to .623 / 5/8 in diameter. Then I would sleeve the tenon with a piece of .900 OD by .623 ID Phenolic Joint material. Once the adhesive dries from the application of the sleeve to the tenon, I would re-tap the the tenon for the new screw to clean the threads of any old adhesive "note I would use a different thread pitch that is over sized for the new screw if possible"

I would then bore my hole in the new handle for a tight fitting .750 or 3/4, then I would bore and tap a hole for the new pin in the handle. Next I would turn the Phenolic Sleeve on the tenon from .900 OD to .750 OD so that the tenon will fit into the new handle.

I have been doing it this way for awhile when I build cues with an A-Joint and it has worked very well, so I also started doing handle replacements this way. In my opinion it gives you built in Buzz protection for the tenon along with a stronger less flexible A-joint. Using this method you can still add a buzz ring if you want or other deco rings at this location. I got the idea from Burton Spain's Book on Point Blanks, and all I do know for certain is that it works.

You can also use the following method which is similar to the above method.

In this method you use a 1 inch piece of joint material and you first bore your hole in the new handle that is .750 diameter, then bore a hole in the new handle for the pin from the forearm tenon. Then you turn the piece of joint material down to the length and depth of the hole bored in the handle. Now since the joint material being used is 1 inch in diameter it should be approximately the same diameter as the forearm at the A-Joint. This allow for a one to two section of the handle that is covered by a wrap, I also have used this method while doing repairs or when build a cue with an A-joint it also will work just fine.

Hope this helps

 

[JoeyInCali]

I'm taking a wild guess.
Flat face bottom of the forearm and top of the handle, 3/8 bolt and 5-minute epoxy.
No tenon.

 

[seahorse1877]

No, .750 tenon, 3/8-10 screw, 5-min epoxy.

There is no ring in the A-joint, I glued the pin in both sides at the same time, I coated the tenon and threads with a q-tip and poured glue in the tapped hole. When I connected the handle to the forearm the glue oozed out and from what I can figure it was a good glue up. Have done it this way 15 or so times and no rattle. I test fit the pin before I glue them up, I chuck up my piece and spin it with the pin in. It was straight.

 

[KJ Cues]

I'm not saying anyone's right or wrong here as there are many ways to accomplish the same thing. It's your 'A'joint, they're your cues and you can build them anyway you want to. This is an opportunity to learn.

The more things you reveal about your construction methods, the more things that get my attention.

I don't use 5-min epoxy for anything except the occasional ferrule replacement where the client drops off the work and wants it back in an hour. I'm not the one in a hurry, the client is. I'll take as much time as I think I can get away with. Generally, the slower the cure of the epoxy, the stronger the bond. 5-min is sufficient for ferrules.

Coco is a tough wood to bond. It has a high 'oil' factor. The 5-min epoxy my not have enough time to migrate into the wood before it starts to cure.
You may find that the epoxy has bonded to your Maple tenon but not nearly as much to the Coco. Pre-washing the Coco just prior to assembly with acetone will help to remove the oils. Some of them anyway.

I can't stress enough, the importance of proper 'A' joint construction. We just had a very informative thread on this topic. That doesn't mean that everyone who reads it will get it right the first time. It's definitely worth a re-read. Get the 'A' joint wrong and the whole cue will be wrong.
Fortunately, you caught it before you went any further.

Take your time.....it's justified.
Maybe it's just me but I never do 2 gluing operations at the same time. IE, I never glue in the connection pin and then immediately make the 'A' joint connection. I want to make sure that each operation is secure in it's own right before I proceed to the next step. By doing all 3 pcs at the same time, connect-pin, handle and forearm, you run the very real risk of not knowing where the buzz is coming from. Is it in the pin? Is it in the handle? Is it in the forearm? Another suspect; is it in the 2 flat mating surfaces of the handle/forearm? Epoxy is notorious for 'wicking' into the end-grain, leaving an insufficient amount for a proper bond.

Again, I really prefer the thinner, slower setting epoxies. This gives me the time I feel is needed to make the handle/forearm connection to my satisfaction. If it takes me 15/20 minutes to make that connection, so be it. It's my time, it's my cue.
I drench the hole and I over-coat the tenon. I WANT to see epoxy squishing out of the gap btwn the two as I'm screwing them together. But here's where it gets tricky. That epoxy is being put under pressure, that's why it's squishing out. It's called hydraulic-action and the pressures can get quite high. So high in fact that you can split the forearm in a heart-beat. That epoxy wants out of there bad and it will find the path of least resistance. If that's through the side-wall of the forearm, it doesn't care. This is where your technique and patience come into play, more importantly your sense of 'feel'. After you've split enough forearms, you'll start tempering your 'feel'. The 'feel' is basically the amount of pressure you sense as you're screwing the handle & forearm together. If you can do this within 20 mins or so, you should be alright.

 

[cutter]

rattle

There are things you need to learn as a cuemaker that cannot be taught. You gotta put in the time & effort and learn what it's like to fail, as well as feel the pain of losing all that invested time & money. Don't be afraid of screwing up. Meet it with a positive attitude & use those screw ups as opportunities to learn & practice repairs. If you knew enough to put the cue together, then you should dang well know enough to cut it apart. Suck it up & start cutting. No matter if you succeed or fail, the lesson you'll learn from doing it will be worth many times over the cost of those materials. If you are afraid of failure or can't afford sacrificing failure for knowledge, then you are taking up the wrong hobby or profession. Cuemaking is expensive. Anybody who tells you otherwise doesn't know any more than you do.

The most honest, truth full quote I've seen in a long long time.

Everybody want's instant knowledge, well there is no free lunch. If you take the time to figure out why it buzzed, then you can eliminate it the next time. If you just try to fix it, well then, it will come back some time in the future, and you will be just as clueless.

 

[Bill the Cat]

Just my opinion.

The most honest, truth full quote I've seen in a long long time.

Everybody want's instant knowledge, well there is no free lunch. If you take the time to figure out why it buzzed, then you can eliminate it the next time. If you just try to fix it, well then, it will come back some time in the future, and you will be just as clueless.

Come on guys. The name of the forum is "Ask the Cuemaker".....duh!

If the answer is just going to be "Figure it out yourself", it kind of defeats the purpose of this forum. Besides, none of us has the time to make ALL the mistakes ourselves

Kudos to people like cueman and KJ for sharing their expertise:thumbup:

As for you and qbilder....you might want to try decaf

 

[cueman]

No, .750 tenon, 3/8-10 screw, 5-min epoxy.

There is no ring in the A-joint, I glued the pin in both sides at the same time, I coated the tenon and threads with a q-tip and poured glue in the tapped hole. When I connected the handle to the forearm the glue oozed out and from what I can figure it was a good glue up. Have done it this way 15 or so times and no rattle. I test fit the pin before I glue them up, I chuck up my piece and spin it with the pin in. It was straight.

No ring in the A joint is the most likely source of the problem here. End grains do not glue well together and often cause the buzz. If you don't want to use a ring, then coat the end grain with West System and let it dry before gluing together. Also on cocobolo you can wipe the end grain with laquer thinner to dry the oils away for a better bond.
Some reasons I glue the pin in one side and let it dry are that the screw will not work its way farther up into one side than it was supposed to. It can easily do that. In most of my early cues that buzzed that I cut apart to locate the problem that was that case. Another factor is when tightening it can pull the screw up against two sides of the wood threads and create some unwanted internal pressure. Also seeing the screw spin true by gluing into one side first makes the cue much less likely to warp in the A-joint area.
For the A Joint I would go with West System Glue as it is thinner and easier to fill up with no bond break down issues. 5 Minute glue is only used for ferrules in my cues.
You can probably save the forearm by cutting the handle just below the screw. Heat the screw and remove it. The reason I asked the diameter at both ends was to see the best way to save your butt sleeve section. I have saved most of the handle area in cues and you might can also. You can saw the cue end to end up the middle and see if there are any visable problems if you want to scrap this one and call it a learning experience. You will need a metal cutting band saw blade to do this. But saving the cue would not be all that hard either and you will get some experience replacing a handle section. This experience will come in very handy for future repairs on warped handle cues.

 

[qbilder]

Come on guys. The name of the forum is "Ask the Cuemaker".....duh!

Exactly. I'm a cuemaker. Steve Klein is a cuemaker, respected member of ACA, been building world class cues for over a decade. Who the heck are you? Why are you chiming in at all, let alone to dispute the words of or chastise an actual cuemaker over the things he says? After all, the name of the forum is "Ask The Cuemaker"......duh!

Your post is exactly the kind of reasons the knowledgeable & veteran builders are fast fading from AZ. They simply quit coming around or offering the actual worthwhile advice. It's not worth the trouble for them. There's your decaf.