I know this won't be popular, but...

[know-nada]

It is indeed a shame that Kevin Trudeau has not been forthright and honest about what is going on, as well as his plan to deal with it. There do indeed seem to be lame excuses, lies, and who knows what else.

All I am saying is at what point do the players take responsibility for their own lives and what they want out of this sport? Do they go along like blind sheep forever - promoters screwing them is not a new thing - so do they continue down the primrose path and wait until it's time to sue in every instance? Cause that's they way it looks if you acknowledge the history between the male pro players and promoters of our sport. Allen Hopkins to the best of my knowledge does what he says when he puts on an event. Charlie Williams seems to do what he says when he puts on an event...some will, and as we know, some won't - but the players are not innocent sheep - that idea is ridiculous. It is far past time for them to figure it out - it is all this drama and unprofessionalism that keeps this sport from getting anywhere - and it starts and stops with the players. They have got to step up and learn from their OWN mistakes. If they want to be successful - why don't they give some support to Allen Hopkins and make a plan with a guy who IS a stand up guy who has proven he will do what he says and obviously does care about the sport.

The sad thing is - is that we all really should know why that doesn't happen... the players. One starts talking about how much the promoter is making and how used and abused they are and what they aren't getting that they are entitled to...then because one player opens his mouth - they all have to talk about how smart they are - way smarter than they guy who is trying to promote them in the first place - is it starting to come together for you yet? Don't you see the same pattern I do?

 

[ironman]

If Bill Gates had started this tour and the same things were happening, people might not worry as much b/c they know his business reputation and his credibility. KT, on the otherhand, has a long record of being a scheister and a con artist. -
I think that is from Iron man??? Just copied and pasted it but really...

...A long record of being a scheister and a con artist? similarities between him and so many pool players out there? hmmm, sounds a little like the pot calling the kettle black.

There isn't going to be any Prince (like Bill Gates) riding in to save the Cinderella pool players - again, why don't they take responsibility for the profession that they want to make their living at instead of whining about some fairy tale life they think they are due. I just want to know what it is that the world owes pool players? The world - nothing, Kevin Trudeau - nothing - if his business plan doesn't succeed - tough - they sure were willing to go along with it when they thought they had found the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow...but now when the guy is struggling to make it work - who is really getting abused here? If he can't make it work, at least he had the balls to try - you all better look up the definition of heart - because it doesn't say anything about seperating the local chump from his wallet.

Many suffer from selective memories.

When this whole thing started, the IPT was the best thing since buttons on a shirt. Finally a proven bussinessman was taking over pool. Money was coming from an outside source and was going to change things forever. Finally someone would generate money where all us LITTLe PROMOTERS had Failed.
Players were going to live like human beings again. They wouldn't have to gamble/hustle anymore. On and ON.

The players in this instance did not FAIL THE SYSTEM!!!! The players fell for a scam!!! That is no crime!!! They went for it hook,line, and sinker. Who can blame them. They didn't have him POST. That is not a crime.

Read slowly, KT is the PERP, not the victim. The players are the victims and it is very sad.

True enough businesses do fail and often the founder skates without a blemish. In this case, the founder, KT, gave his personal garuntee. He was funding the tour. That was one of his 1st statements and one of his 1st lies.
From there, everything fell apart. KT fell apart, not the business as he explained it. The business because of his very 1st lie, NEVER HAD A CHANCE.
The players were SCAMED!!!!!

 

[Roadie]

The players weren't scammed so much as the were mislead. A scam implies criminal misconduct for profit where one party benefits and the other does not. Taken as a group the players have seen a profit, even taking into account the owed prize money.

Where they were mislead is about the solvency of the tour. The foundation of the IPT was it's guarantee, Trudeau's personal guarantee that the IPT was fully funded for at least two years.

Because of this promise and no third-party verification the players did follow Trudeau. Because he was the best game in town. Had he truly funded the tour for two years then the landscape would look totally different right now.

Had the players had a strong organization when Trudeau started the IPT then yes they might have been able to use that strength to force Trudeau to post the money somehow. The WPBA however elected to allow their top players to participate and no such verification was elicitied by them, at least it is unknown if they did.

The players did what was asked of them. They were treated very nicely through three events albeit also bullied a bit but overall they received nice treatment. Then, however it fell apart with the missing prize money. Because since money makes the world go around the revolution stopped in Reno.

At this point all the players can be accused of is hoping too much. They did have an organization and supposedly still do, The United PoolPlayers Association. It did not negotiate with Trudeau to achieve verification of his promised funding. It did not guarantee that it's members in good standing became tour members. It did not and has not acted on behalf of the players in any signifigant way regarding the IPT and Trudeau.

So, until the players band together in such a way as to present a strong enough force then they will not be able to withstand the whims and misfortunes of promoters.

 

[Timberly]

The players weren't scammed so much as the were mislead. A scam implies criminal misconduct for profit where one party benefits and the other does not. Taken as a group the players have seen a profit, even taking into account the owed prize money.

Depending on the final outcome, it currently appears like the guys that played in the qualifiers are being scammed.

 

[Jimk]

Many suffer from selective memories.

When this whole thing started, the IPT was the best thing since buttons on a shirt. Finally a proven bussinessman was taking over pool. Money was coming from an outside source and was going to change things forever. Finally someone would generate money where all us LITTLe PROMOTERS had Failed.
Players were going to live like human beings again. They wouldn't have to gamble/hustle anymore. On and ON.

The players in this instance did not FAIL THE SYSTEM!!!! The players fell for a scam!!! That is no crime!!! They went for it hook,line, and sinker. Who can blame them. They didn't have him POST. That is not a crime.

Read slowly, KT is the PERP, not the victim. The players are the victims and it is very sad.

True enough businesses do fail and often the founder skates without a blemish. In this case, the founder, KT, gave his personal garuntee. He was funding the tour. That was one of his 1st statements and one of his 1st lies.
From there, everything fell apart. KT fell apart, not the business as he explained it. The business because of his very 1st lie, NEVER HAD A CHANCE.
The players were SCAMED!!!!!

Ironman, didn't you cringe when you saw who was heading up the IPT? Is there anyone on the planet who hasn't seen Trudeau in action? This guy wouldn't know the truth if it drop kicked him in the nuts. If I were a player, I would have done the same thing all the other players have done, but I don't think I would have been surprised when K.T. pulled the rug out from under me. But then again,I live in the real world where I'm not looking for the next sure thing.

 

[Roadie]

Depending on the final outcome, it currently appears like the guys that played in the qualifiers are being scammed.

I think that's the whole point. The final outcome is a long way off. I don't see this thing as a scam. I don't. I see it as the overambitious adventure of an egomaniac who wanted to own a sport.

IF it can be proven that the IPT never intended to hold a 2007 tour then the word scam could apply. However if they intend to have a tour, intend to have a tournament to award spots on that tour then they aren't technically scamming anyone. Those that participated in the qualifiers however on teh basis of a $100,000 incoe guarantee that is now being revoked should be entitled to refunds and expenses despite whatever the IPT "intended" at the time they made the statement.

If if can be proven that Trudeau did not have the resources to guarantee the tour as he promised and it was based on those promises that people parted with their money then I suppose it could be a scam. For that to happen though seems like quite a task to prove that he did not have the money, had no access to the money, and no plan to get the money. Right now though it looks like an undercaptilized business adventure where a couple hudred folks are along for the ride.

I personally think that there has to be some sort of breach of contract for the unpaid prize money. That is the only really tangible thing right now as I see it. The IPT can postpone tournaments at will and no one who doesn't have access to their financials can accurately say whether they can afford to stage the events or not. The qualifier players are playing for what is right now an intangible, a spot on a future tour. Until the future dates spanning the promised time come and go there is really not much the qualifiers can do but wait. Because Trudeau can weasel his way out by saying he is working on the financing, working on secret deals, securing new sponsors, yada, yada, yada.... and there won't be anything that anyone can do to disprove that legally. At least this is how I see it. Until Trudeau says he is holding a tournament on x-date and he want all IPT players to attend, then they can demand to have the prize money posted. But until then there isn't anything to really go on.

But for the 3 Million. That's a tangible that the players can fight for. That is something that was promised if the players if they showed up to play and they did. For that they should be able to sue. I don't know that it's criminal, i.e. a scam not to have the prize money available when you say it will be but quite possibly it is - in which case I would be completely mistaken about the nature of the situation.

 

[ironman]

Ironman, didn't you cringe when you saw who was heading up the IPT? Is there anyone on the planet who hasn't seen Trudeau in action? This guy wouldn't know the truth if it drop kicked him in the nuts. If I were a player, I would have done the same thing all the other players have done, but I don't think I would have been surprised when K.T. pulled the rug out from under me. But then again,I live in the real world where I'm not looking for the next sure thing.

Jim, no, to be perfectly honest I didn't and didn't really think about it for a while. Then reality set in.

I spent close to 20 years onthe road and I have played almost every event there was to play in those days. It was tough. I mean tough to make a living, but we were having a blast. We ended up making some pretty good money, but got very lucky in about a three year period. I repeat, got very lucky.

My point is that it just breaks my heart now to see the guys go through this. I watched one of my all time favorites at a qualifier and suddenly he looked 15 years younger. He was smiling and having a good time. He was firing, firing balls in the pockets, as if it were 15 years ago. He had finished well enough in Vegas to insure having the 2007 card. He was getting married and was buying a home. He had a spring in his step. Finally he toldme,"I'm not going to lie to the neighbors anymore about what I do. At last, the man had some sense of belonging. He was PROUD. I darn near wept.

Another in Houston is a great player and had he spent his past 20 years on the game, no tellilng how good he would have been. Instead he made other choices and worked his ass off for years and raised and provided for his family and has never mentioned any regrets. He did this because it was the right thing to do.

Now, the kids are grown and one in college and just recieved a baseball scholarship. This man couldn't be prouder.
Then comes the IPT and all the possibilities. He sells his small business and for the first time in years is going to focus on the game. He still plays well and is a tremendous talent. He sold his livlihood needlessly August 1st 2006.
I darn near wept.

Another simply wanted his money and earned enough to secure the 2007 card as well. His sister is cancer riddled and all he talked about was buying her a home. I have never heard him mention anything he wants.

When the reality hit me, I'm ashamed to say, I stayed quiet. The potential was there, but I knew in my gut, it couldn't work. I could see it because I'm older and don't play like I used to. I could see it coming because I was on the outside looking in. I could just feel it coming.

This is why I am and have been so defensive of the players. Have they made all the right decisions? No, nobody has and there are regrets with every major decision we make in life. Life is not always perfect, nor fair. Shit happens.

KT told them that the money was escrowed. He told them they were going to be able to hold their heads high. He told them that this was so exciting that they would have trouble sleeping. No disrespect to Roadie, but on the streets I grew up on, this is called a SCAM. The judge and the attorneys can call it what they wish.

He wasn't going to lie to the neighbors ever again.

To quote Timberly, "YOU POS"!!!!!

 

[manwon]

It is indeed a shame that Kevin Trudeau has not been forthright and honest about what is going on, as well as his plan to deal with it. There do indeed seem to be lame excuses, lies, and who knows what else.

All I am saying is at what point do the players take responsibility for their own lives and what they want out of this sport? Do they go along like blind sheep forever - promoters screwing them is not a new thing - so do they continue down the primrose path and wait until it's time to sue in every instance? Cause that's they way it looks if you acknowledge the history between the male pro players and promoters of our sport. Allen Hopkins to the best of my knowledge does what he says when he puts on an event. Charlie Williams seems to do what he says when he puts on an event...some will, and as we know, some won't - but the players are not innocent sheep - that idea is ridiculous. It is far past time for them to figure it out - it is all this drama and unprofessionalism that keeps this sport from getting anywhere - and it starts and stops with the players. They have got to step up and learn from their OWN mistakes. If they want to be successful - why don't they give some support to Allen Hopkins and make a plan with a guy who IS a stand up guy who has proven he will do what he says and obviously does care about the sport.

The sad thing is - is that we all really should know why that doesn't happen... the players. One starts talking about how much the promoter is making and how used and abused they are and what they aren't getting that they are entitled to...then because one player opens his mouth - they all have to talk about how smart they are - way smarter than they guy who is trying to promote them in the first place - is it starting to come together for you yet? Don't you see the same pattern I do?

It is very clear that you do truly know-nada, or maybe you know more than it appears by your statements.

I have only one question for you are you in some way related to KT or another poster here on AZ jaimeMcworter ?

Because it is clear that your sentiments are not with the true losers in all this.

Manwon

 

[ironman]

It is very clear that you do truly know-nada, or maybe you know more than it appears by your statements.

I have only one question for you are in some way related to KT or another poster here on AZ jaimeMcworter ?

Because it is clear that your sentiments are not with the true losers in all this.

Manwon

Good point...

 

[know-nada]

hey there manwon - you just aren't getting the point, which is...at what point prior to litigation do the pool players actually accept responsibilities - both the risks and rewards of what they agree to? If they didn't have an agreement - then they should have recognized that they were being strongarmed. That was obvious when the IPT basically told every other pool organization to screw off that they didn't need to sanction with WPA or any other legitimate organization. KT made it pretty clear that it was HIS thing and he was going to do what he wanted - from picking players that could hardly be considered C players, to dates that stomped on the US Open, etc...But any and every player that could work out a way to try and get on the bandwagon did - from WPBA members, to local schmucks squeezing any backer they could for qualifier barrels (the 60K Mark Trainer case and point - among many others). - So again, when is it each person's responsibility to take accountability for the situation he or she finds him or herself in. If I put my money in a bad stock because I am an idiot and know nothing about the stock market - it is my fault. If I invest in a business venture and pay no attention to my investment and it fails.. it is the same sort of scenario with the players - they didn't care to work out any of the details or put together a contract - or even ask KT if there was one, (I am speculating because I don't really know what is in writing for the players to count on between them and the IPT itself that spells out these "what if" scenarios - but I mean for crying out loud - darn near every grade school in the country has a student rights handbook - but the pool players weren't smart enough to ask what their rights are?? I mean come on...) because they don't want to do the work or aren't smart enough to make it work for themselves - in either case, whether they are lazy or dumb, they could have or should have learned from history, or even the way KT went about running this business from the beginning - but again, they didn't care - so now everyone is supposed to get behind them because it didn't work out how they wished it would - PLEASE!! give me a break! I think what is happening is a shame, but I think they should have protected themselves ahead of time, paid attention and been more educated throughout the process, and taken accountability from the beginning to create a working relationship with the IPT - seeing as how important it was going to be to them and their future. What any responsible human being would do - communicate, plan and then adjust when things don't go according to plan.

People have got to get real about these numbers: think about it... the players are out: whatever travel expenses incurred throughout this wild ride and minimal entry fees? the players were paid for two events? one? so each player is maybe at worst close to even? ...then there is KT - who regardless of what he has ever said or promised - now be honest here - if he had never said anything about how long he would fund this, or made statements about the future - what does he owe the players? what did he owe pool players before starting this whole thing? NOTHING - just like everyone else on the planet - they owe pool players nothing. No one should live life trying to figure out a way to seperate other people from their own money - that is truly wrong, yet it is what pool players too often base their existence on.

 

[Snapshot9]

Good Faith ...

hey there manwon - you just aren't getting the point, which is...at what point prior to litigation do the pool players actually accept responsibilities - both the risks and rewards of what they agree to? If they didn't have an agreement - then they should have recognized that they were being strongarmed. That was obvious when the IPT basically told every other pool organization to screw off that they didn't need to sanction with WPA or any other legitimate organization. KT made it pretty clear that it was HIS thing and he was going to do what he wanted - from picking players that could hardly be considered C players, to dates that stomped on the US Open, etc...But any and every player that could work out a way to try and get on the bandwagon did - from WPBA members, to local schmucks squeezing any backer they could for qualifier barrels (the 60K Mark Trainer case and point - among many others). - So again, when is it each person's responsibility to take accountability for the situation he or she finds him or herself in. If I put my money in a bad stock because I am an idiot and know nothing about the stock market - it is my fault. If I invest in a business venture and pay no attention to my investment and it fails.. it is the same sort of scenario with the players - they didn't care to work out any of the details or put together a contract - or even ask KT if there was one, (I am speculating because I don't really know what is in writing for the players to count on between them and the IPT itself that spells out these "what if" scenarios - but I mean for crying out loud - darn near every grade school in the country has a student rights handbook - but the pool players weren't smart enough to ask what their rights are?? I mean come on...) because they don't want to do the work or aren't smart enough to make it work for themselves - in either case, whether they are lazy or dumb, they could have or should have learned from history, or even the way KT went about running this business from the beginning - but again, they didn't care - so now everyone is supposed to get behind them because it didn't work out how they wished it would - PLEASE!! give me a break! I think what is happening is a shame, but I think they should have protected themselves ahead of time, paid attention and been more educated throughout the process, and taken accountability from the beginning to create a working relationship with the IPT - seeing as how important it was going to be to them and their future. What any responsible human being would do - communicate, plan and then adjust when things don't go according to plan.

People have got to get real about these numbers: think about it... the players are out: whatever travel expenses incurred throughout this wild ride and minimal entry fees? the players were paid for two events? one? so each player is maybe at worst close to even? ...then there is KT - who regardless of what he has ever said or promised - now be honest here - if he had never said anything about how long he would fund this, or made statements about the future - what does he owe the players? what did he owe pool players before starting this whole thing? NOTHING - just like everyone else on the planet - they owe pool players nothing. No one should live life trying to figure out a way to seperate other people from their own money - that is truly wrong, yet it is what pool players too often base their existence on.

There is a thing known within the law as 'Good Faith', and KT breached that when he didn't pay up for Reno, meanwhile dodging bullets with his little unsubstantiated BS claims. He isn't dumb, he may have hand picked Ho because he knew noone could verify whether his actions were true or not because HO can not be reached to say yes or no.

The other thing you fail to recognize is that most Pool Players are not a very educated group, and they operate much as a Carney does at a Carnival. The IPT was the chance for them to truly become professionals, not because of winning more money, but in many other ways as well, and some were experiencing 'growing pains'. If the tour had went on for 2 years, I think most players would go from just players and hustlers to being professionals and manage their careers in a more intelligent manner, and this overflows into other areas of their lives as well. But they are not there yet. How many American players anyway track their expenses associated with their profession? How many insure their cues and cases?
They don't operate like a true businessman because they are not yet. Probably only a select few do, and I would bet most of them come from Europe, i.e., Souquet for one.

Even if they form a union, and start making demands, the promoter can always say no, and just not have the event. Do you want that to happen? Or they could just tempt Semi-Pros to play? Unions, for the most part, have outlived their useful life in the USA, can you say, outsourcing, and destruction of the middle class here?

Unions work when Demand is high and Supply is short, in Pool, that Demand can go away in a hurry. So, don't criticize Pool Players for not being businessmen, they don't know how to operate in that function outside of the Pool world, they just play Pool man.

It's too bad though because the IPT could have started a structure that could filter down with lower levels being defined, and with Pool being supported more, clear down to the kids, with defineable steps and goals for upcoming players to shoot for, and to make a decent living at if that is their desire.

Nothing will work until KT stops BS'ng and starts being honest. What are the odds on that happening?

 

[av84fun]

Snapshot9...<<Nothing will work until KT stops BS'ng and starts being honest. What are the odds on that happening?>>

I don't know...but maybe Ho Interactive would quote the odds.

Ya think??

(-:
Jim

 

[Roadie]

How can you say unions have outlived their usefulness in the USA? The unions enabled the middle class. Until unions came along a 12 hour workday/6 days a week was standard with most factory jobs being paid as piecegoods where the worker worked for free if they didn't get enough goods done in time.

And that nearly slave-labor didn't neccesarily translate to lower prices either. It just meant more profit for the owners.

Outsourcing is nothing new. Before the USA was formed and for long after that we were the source of "cheap" labor for the Britain and Europe. Masses of immigrants with noting but their clothes fed a vast production machine with waves upon waves of fresh backs to break. How do you think the factory workers in England felt seeing their jobs "exported" to America?

A business entity is at it's most basic a machine to turn raw materials into money. It derives it's character and morals from those who run it. It can either be oppressive, enabling or neutral to those whose labor drives it. Unions provide a counterbalance to the oppressive practice. Not a perfect one because the job of a Union is to strive for the most it can achieve for it's members and those goals are often detrimental to the ability of the business entity to continue to operate in a fiscally secure manner.

Ingvar Kamprad said that profit is not evil, profits are resources and it is what you do with them that is either evil or good.

Of course a promoter can say no to a player union's conditions. Any deal has three possible outcomes, win/win lose/win-win/lose or no-deal. Of those three win/win is the best outcome of course, win/lose-lose-win is always bad because someone is getting screwed, and no-deal is just neutral, no harm no foul. It is better to walk away from a bad deal than to enter one that is lopsided. But that is the whole point of collective bargaining. The factory owner can ALWAYS say no deal to the union. He has the option to close the factory and retire or close it and retrain or move the production elsewhere. That's his right to do so, he owns the business, the employees do not. That's the risk that a union member takes when he entrusts the union to bargain on his behalf. Looking at the practical side however, the factory owner wants to be in business and wants to further protect and grow his business so it makes more sense to have happy and productive workers. So it makes sense, even if it hurts the profitablitly a little, to come to a win/win solution. Without a union the employees are at a huge disadvantage, just as the players are in today's climate.

Yes, it's each player's personal choice to either participate or not in any event or tour, just as it is also each employee's choice to participate or not in a union or even to continue employment. (leaving aside the "indentured" status of many of the world's workforce for the moment).

Even with the advent of a player's union there isn't any reason that someone cannot start another IPT and lay it out for the players in a "my way or highway" deal. Solidarity depends on the individual entrusting their organization to stand up and say "no deal" when it's a bad deal and the best organizations bring it to a vote of the membership.

Anyway, the point is that unions continue to be a vital part of the structure between business and labor. Their effectiveness ebbs and flows as does life but the are the democratic method of ensuring that the few don't continually profit while the majority suffers. Share the wealth and make sure your workers can afford a new big screen every year and they will keep you in caviar.

 

[know-nada]

How can you say unions have outlived their usefulness in the USA? The unions enabled the middle class. Until unions came along a 12 hour workday/6 days a week was standard with most factory jobs being paid as piecegoods where the worker worked for free if they didn't get enough goods done in time.

And that nearly slave-labor didn't neccesarily translate to lower prices either. It just meant more profit for the owners.

Outsourcing is nothing new. Before the USA was formed and for long after that we were the source of "cheap" labor for the Britain and Europe. Masses of immigrants with noting but their clothes fed a vast production machine with waves upon waves of fresh backs to break. How do you think the factory workers in England felt seeing their jobs "exported" to America?

A business entity is at it's most basic a machine to turn raw materials into money. It derives it's character and morals from those who run it. It can either be oppressive, enabling or neutral to those whose labor drives it. Unions provide a counterbalance to the oppressive practice. Not a perfect one because the job of a Union is to strive for the most it can achieve for it's members and those goals are often detrimental to the ability of the business entity to continue to operate in a fiscally secure manner.

Ingvar Kamprad said that profit is not evil, profits are resources and it is what you do with them that is either evil or good.

Of course a promoter can say no to a player union's conditions. Any deal has three possible outcomes, win/win lose/win-win/lose or no-deal. Of those three win/win is the best outcome of course, win/lose-lose-win is always bad because someone is getting screwed, and no-deal is just neutral, no harm no foul. It is better to walk away from a bad deal than to enter one that is lopsided. But that is the whole point of collective bargaining. The factory owner can ALWAYS say no deal to the union. He has the option to close the factory and retire or close it and retrain or move the production elsewhere. That's his right to do so, he owns the business, the employees do not. That's the risk that a union member takes when he entrusts the union to bargain on his behalf. Looking at the practical side however, the factory owner wants to be in business and wants to further protect and grow his business so it makes more sense to have happy and productive workers. So it makes sense, even if it hurts the profitablitly a little, to come to a win/win solution. Without a union the employees are at a huge disadvantage, just as the players are in today's climate.

Yes, it's each player's personal choice to either participate or not in any event or tour, just as it is also each employee's choice to participate or not in a union or even to continue employment. (leaving aside the "indentured" status of many of the world's workforce for the moment).

Even with the advent of a player's union there isn't any reason that someone cannot start another IPT and lay it out for the players in a "my way or highway" deal. Solidarity depends on the individual entrusting their organization to stand up and say "no deal" when it's a bad deal and the best organizations bring it to a vote of the membership.

Anyway, the point is that unions continue to be a vital part of the structure between business and labor. Their effectiveness ebbs and flows as does life but the are the democratic method of ensuring that the few don't continually profit while the majority suffers. Share the wealth and make sure your workers can afford a new big screen every year and they will keep you in caviar.

And that's the key - isn't it? A business must be profitable, and it's employees must make more money for the business than they do as an employee, otherwise the business cannot pay its bills let alone be profitable. The reason that pool fails is because the pool players - whether businessmen or not - have never developed a formula that offers a viable product to a viable market. If they want to rely on someone else to do that for them - then that is a RISK they take. Otherwise, they can do like the women have and create a market for what they do. End of story. If they don't have anyone who wants to pay for what they have to offer - they have no business, there is no men's professional pool. It is that simple.

Now...in that statement I am not saying that I do not believe that the male professional players have no market. IMO, they do. They have not put in the work to develop a business plan that is viable, and it's fine if they want someone else to do that - but they have to develop a working relationship with whomever that is - not an adversarial one. And ultimately, each person - pool player or not, is responsible for his own carcas on this planet! The sooner the old time hustling pool players realize that, the better off the sport will be because more people than are willing to admit are tired of the "the world owes me a living" mentality that some of the players have.