I think Predator needs to go back into the laboratory on their new cloth.

336Robin

Multiverse Operative
Silver Member
There wasn't anything wrong with anything you said. You'll go down in history as the Unknown Poster of the Post of the Year.

I've quit playing games with people over the table. No pleasure in the game, means no pleasure in the sport.

I practice where there is a table with 3.5 in pockets. I prefer to play on a table where my opponent can make balls because it calls
for me to play perfect position.


Wherever there is a sport/game where a surface is involved there seems to be a never ending discussion as to varying surface conditions. In golf it is usually the varying speed of the greens. In bowling it is the lane conditions. In tennis we have the courts. Here, with pool we have the tables and everything that is associated- cloth, rails, pockets, balls, now it seems even chalk.

Personally my favorite game is 14.1. I never enjoyed the game as much as when I played it over 40 years ago on a Gold Crown 1 with standard GC 4 7/8 corner pockets and high quality worsted cloth. I could control my speed and pocket balls and truly feel like I had some control of the table, even though I was just a part time player with a full time job and all the reponsibilities of a family, a house, etc.

I think that Brunswick had an idea, post 1961, that somehow the game should be made available to the masses for ENJOYMENT as the number one objective. Something that could be sustainable as a family recreational outlet for all generations to come forward. They produced equipment to meet that goal.

Somehow, along the way, I don't honestly know why; some people decided and also dictated that basic billiard room equipment should be so challenging in speed and ball pocketing that it would take almost full time dedication in order to achieve an even reasonable level of proficiency to actually enjoy playing the game. So we got super fast cloth, super fast rails, smaller pockets with deeper shelves, and more elastic balls.

I know, a lot of folks on here will say they love it, they need the challenge, the game ( 9 ball) was too easy ( for the pros). Great for all of you. I hope you are all very happy now - our pool rooms are mostly gone, very few young people in America dedicate any reasonable time to the game, older folks who played a lot in the 60s and 70s find the equipment way too challenging today and not fun at all, we here in America are losing the game for many reasons, of course - I will guarantee you the continued proliferation of pro cut pocket Diamond speed tables with super fast cloth will be a death call to this sport.

So to the OP here, I say, why are you surprised? This has been evolving in pool for the last 40 years. In a society that has evolved more and more to instant gratification; the pool equipment geniuses have created equipment for the masses that does just the polar opposite.

I say make the equipment more user friendly to the masses and create competitive games for the pros that have little to do with break shots . Pool can never be successful by trying to push the game from the very best players down to the masses. You need to bring the masses to the game first, as a sense of enjoyment, an outlet, recreation - and that means less challenging equipment.
 
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buckshotshoey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Simonis 860 has come up a couple of times. Predator cloth is faster then 860. 760 is faster then 860. So.... is the Predator cloth faster then 760 also?
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don’t know if it’s the cloth or the table but these equipment are accepting shots like there’s no tomorrow!!!! The players shooting the shot wrong and yet it goes in! Something is really weird I was about to make new thread about this but come on even the 90s old crown big pockets did not accept shots like these

This attached photo if you would go to the match and look at it. I don’t know how this is ok to go in. He hit it so wrong not even on the first diamond. And not even pocket speed. And not even that the 7ball is near the rails cause it’s a little bit out. This shot needs to go clean. If pocket accepts this as it did then something is wrong in the sport. Please guys stop making our game look silly. I feel they make it like this so that everybody can run out ?? Only do ok position
Newly installed cloth (of any kind) always results in much more forgiving pockets. These pockets will tighten up considerably over the course of a week long tournament.
 

smoochie

NotLikeThis
Newly installed cloth (of any kind) always results in much more forgiving pockets. These pockets will tighten up considerably over the course of a week long tournament.
I know this my man what I was trying to say is that it shouldn't be that way, this needs to be fixed. They should find a new technology to make all cloth play the same, all the time! and it also shouldnt accept shots when they are not going toward the pockets.
 

buckshotshoey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I know this my man what I was trying to say is that it shouldn't be that way, this needs to be fixed. They should find a new technology to make all cloth play the same, all the time! and it also shouldnt accept shots when they are not going toward the pockets.
Why? Should golf be played with greens using artificial turf? Should bowling lanes be meticulously maintained between every game... just to keep them the same all the time?

What you suggest is an absolute impossibility. What you suggest is only ONE company be allowed to produce billiard cloth. And even if that happened, it would be impossible. Humidity, temperature, lighting,..... all have an effect.

Being able to adjust to conditions is what separates the men from the boys.

Actually they do have a technology that makes playing pool the same... day in day out...week to week..all year long. And you can adjust it exactly to your specifications. It's called virtual pool. You prob have it on your phone right now. Stick to that and you will have exactly what you desire.
 
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garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I know this my man what I was trying to say is that it shouldn't be that way, this needs to be fixed. They should find a new technology to make all cloth play the same, all the time! and it also shouldnt accept shots when they are not going toward the pockets.
Why???? Why should it all play the same? Figuring out how a table plays is a BIG key to playing well. You'll NEVER get two tables to play alike. Close? Yes but not the same. New, slick cloth always plays easy for a short time. Once the balls quit sliding and start grabbing you're good. Be nice if cloth could be 'pre-worn' before install but as of yet there's no such thing.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Agreed. While the pool tables of 50+ years ago were for sure slower on average, the amount by which they were slower, at least in the bigger events, is hugely exaggerated by most and there isn't near the difference that many believe.
I would tend to disagree with this assessment. Back in the 60's, 70's and 80's we played predominately on Stevens cloth that was a wool/nylon blend. Because of this the tables did play slow, noticably slower than they play today with the newer cloth (mostly Simoniz) being used. The rails haven't changed much at all. We used to have regular discussions about who had the most powerful stroke, to move the cue ball around the table. A soft stroke just wouldn't cut it back then. I could never move the cue ball like the big boys and I knew it.
 

buckshotshoey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I would tend to disagree with this assessment. Back in the 60's, 70's and 80's we played predominately on Stevens cloth that was a wool/nylon blend. Because of this the tables did play slow, noticably slower than they play today with the newer cloth (mostly Simoniz) being used. The rails haven't changed much at all. We used to have regular discussions about who had the most powerful stroke, to move the cue ball around the table. A soft stroke just wouldn't cut it back then. I could never move the cue ball like the big boys and I knew it.
Simonis 860 is also Wool/nylon blend.

SPECIFICATIONS
Product ID: 860-AG-xx
Primary Colors: Green
Stain Resistance: Natural Resistance
Speed: Fast
Finish: Worsted
Blend: 65% Australian Merino Wool / 35% Nylon

So what was the difference in Stevens cloth? A higher wool content?
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Simonis 860 is also Wool/nylon blend.

SPECIFICATIONS
Product ID: 860-AG-xx
Primary Colors: Green
Stain Resistance: Natural Resistance
Speed: Fast
Finish: Worsted
Blend: 65% Australian Merino Wool / 35% Nylon

So what was the difference in Stevens cloth? A higher wool content?
860 is 90/10. https://www.classicbilliards.net/pool-table-felt-cloth/simonis/compare-760-vs-860-vs-860hr.html Old-school cloth was much less dense of weave and not shaved. Was also directional where worsted is not. Worsted is a super dense thread. Very little 'fuzz' and even that is sheared off.
 

buckshotshoey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
860 is 90/10. https://www.classicbilliards.net/pool-table-felt-cloth/simonis/compare-760-vs-860-vs-860hr.html Old-school cloth was much less dense of weave and not shaved. Worsted is a super dense thread. Very little 'fuzz' and even that is sheared off.
And on the Seyberts website it shows different.


Somebody is wrong
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
And on the Seyberts website it shows different.


Somebody is wrong
Seyberts is. 860 IS 90/10.
 

Texas Carom Club

9ball did to billiards what hiphop did to america
Silver Member
Fast cloth is OK. In fact Simonis 860 is the reason pro pool is played the way pro pool is played which is mostly with follow whereas with the Mali cloth it was mostly with draw. However, this new Predator cloth is crazy fast and when the best players in the world all have trouble adjusting to it that's an indication that something isn't right.

What's special about the Predator rack. It's just a fucking triangle. Aren't all non-template racks triangles? I find this debate interesting. Pool is a mathematical game. To me a perfect rack is part of what makes it a perfect game and that's what apparently the better template racks achieve. Now the downside to that is that the better players have figured out how to wire a perfect rack thus the call to use an imperfect triangle. I wonder how Mark G. feels about this since CSI invented the Magic Rack with the idea being faster racking and racking perfection. I'm not that concerned about the triangle vs. Magic Rack discussion but this cloth is too damn fast.



Kool story I'll make sure to ask which cloth is in each table so I'll I'll know how to shoot,

Was it all forwarded or all backwerds shooting for fasty cloth?
 

smoochie

NotLikeThis
I don’t get how people are OK with balls being hit badly and missed but yet they go in. It’s absolute insane to me. Even bad players will run out on these tables. That’s why top pros are being beat with people with lesser skill. Keep at it and pool will go down even further.

look at tennis. The great player will remain great! This is the true sport. Tonight the player who is ranked #1 will play against the player who is ranked #2 in the US Open finals!! this is evident of skill that really matters. Unlike pool where a player ranked #1 can lose in the first round to a nobody based purely on luck and rolls. Amazing stuff

Because anyone can run out. You hit a ball bad still it goes in lol
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don’t get how people are OK with balls being hit badly and missed but yet they go in. It’s absolute insane to me. Even bad players will run out on these tables. That’s why top pros are being beat with people with lesser skill. Keep at it and pool will go down even further.

look at tennis. The great player will remain great! This is the true sport. Tonight the player who is ranked #1 will play against the player who is ranked #2 in the US Open finals!! this is evident of skill that really matters. Unlike pool where a player ranked #1 can lose in the first round to a nobody based purely on luck and rolls. Amazing stuff

Because anyone can run out. You hit a ball bad still it goes in lol
No they won't. You're way overstating the 'luck factor'. Over the course of a full match or tournament the better player wins. I've yet to see ANYONE shit-their-way to a US Open or WC title. Look, brand-new worsted cloth plays easier for a short time. Big events always use new cloth so some balls go that won't a month later. Not near the issue you're making it out to be.
 
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iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don’t get how people are OK with balls being hit badly and missed but yet they go in. It’s absolute insane to me. Even bad players will run out on these tables. That’s why top pros are being beat with people with lesser skill. Keep at it and pool will go down even further.

look at tennis. The great player will remain great! This is the true sport. Tonight the player who is ranked #1 will play against the player who is ranked #2 in the US Open finals!! this is evident of skill that really matters. Unlike pool where a player ranked #1 can lose in the first round to a nobody based purely on luck and rolls. Amazing stuff

Because anyone can run out. You hit a ball bad still it goes in lol
No, not anyone can run out. Is everyone at your local hall an A player?

On the professional level, matches are decided by mistakes, much more than total offense of running packages by the other player. What is the #1 mistake that directly results in an inning end? It’s missed balls.
 

buckshotshoey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No, not anyone can run out. Is everyone at your local hall an A player?

On the professional level, matches are decided by mistakes, much more than total offense of running packages by the other player. What is the #1 mistake that directly results in an inning end? It’s missed balls.
Or position. If a pro misses a shot on a table where "everything falls", he must have missed it REALLY bad.
 
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