Ian Anderson's statement about missing players

[monski]

It seems everyone is quick to place blame on here (including me from time to time). I have seen both sides of the coin on the issues that kept the top echelon of filipino players out of the WTBC. Arguments can be made for both sides in this conflict. To outrightly blame Makabenta or Anderson is a mistake. It could not have happened unless boths sides refused to reach an accord.

I will say this, Makabenta would have preferred that the top players participated. He did not want them kept out. That much I will say. As far as the underlying issues which made a resolution impossible, that is not for publication here. Both sides know what is underneath this conflict, and it has yet to be posted on here. And will not by me. Sorry to sound secretive, but it is not my place to judge who is right and who is wrong here. My opinion matters little anyway.

For the time being, let's just say there will be remain two separate promotion associations for pool in the Philippines. This in turn will give some opportunities for lesser players (i.e. Banares and Pulpul) to gain some recognition and make some money.

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Hubris....

Wikipedia
Hubris, sometimes spelled hybris (ancient Greek ὕβρις), is a term used in modern English to indicate overweening pride, self-confidence, superciliousness, or arrogance, often resulting in fatal retribution. In ancient Greece, hubris referred to actions which, intentionally or not, shamed and humiliated the victim, and frequently the perpetrator as well. It was most evident in the public and private actions of the powerful and rich. The word was also used to describe actions of those who challenged the gods or their laws, especially in Greek tragedy, resulting in the protagonist's downfall.

Hubris, though not specifically defined, was a legal term and was considered a crime in classical Athens. It was also considered the greatest sin of the ancient Greek world. That was so because it was not only proof of excessive pride, but also resulted in violent acts by or to those involved. The category of acts constituting hubris for the ancient Greeks apparently broadened from the original specific reference to mutilation of a corpse, or a humiliation of a defeated foe, or irreverent "outrageous treatment" in general.

The meaning was eventually further generalized in its modern English usage to apply to any outrageous act or exhibition of pride or disregard for basic moral laws. Such an act may be referred to as an "act of hubris", or the person committing the act may be said to be hubristic. Atē, ancient Greek for "ruin, folly, delusion," is the action performed by the hero, usually because of his/her hubris, or great pride, that leads to his/her death or downfall.

Any volunteers to be Hero?

 

[monski]

It seems everyone is quick to place blame on here (including me from time to time). I have seen both sides of the coin on the issues that kept the top echelon of filipino players out of the WTBC. Arguments can be made for both sides in this conflict. To outrightly blame Makabenta or Anderson is a mistake. It could not have happened unless boths sides refused to reach an accord.

I will say this, Makabenta would have preferred that the top players participated. He did not want them kept out. That much I will say. As far as the underlying issues which made a resolution impossible, that is not for publication here. Both sides know what is underneath this conflict, and it has yet to be posted on here. And will not by me. Sorry to sound secretive, but it is not my place to judge who is right and who is wrong here. My opinion matters little anyway.

For the time being, let's just say there will be remain two separate promotion associations for pool in the Philippines. This in turn will give some opportunities for lesser players (i.e. Banares and Pulpul) to gain some recognition and make some money.

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Players will go with what will help support their livelihood/family.

I guess the parties will be struggling to get power and control. At whose expense?

You know what they say about power....

Not taking sides here. WTB organizers would prefer top local players to be there. And perhaps some of the top guns also would have wanted to play in the WTB. Why pass up a big payday opportunity?

Pride can be a killer...

 

[sputnik]

What is this about? I've posted straight-up in these forums so what are you referring to? Is it about Yen being in the red from the 2 WPCs and need to really get in the black with the WTBC? Is it about how they stirred the pot with their text messaging? Is Yen saying now that it wasn't his responsibility for kicking those players out of the Guinness Qualifier? What's still not posted here?

Jay, wouldn't it be good to confirm the real score in whatever story was told to you by Raya. I have a feeling that it is an incredible story to get your sympathy. Maybe we can have Verna to reply to it.

Even Ted seems to have swung to the extreme. I got a kick out of Verna's reply to him. hahaha.

But seriously, if the story is in the line of what was posted before like Perry being a hoodlum; Puyat using Efren; Edwin being a troublemaker; and how pitiful he is after being ganged-up on -- then it is really a secret because it lives only in his mind.

What I can believe is a secret between Makabenta and Andersen. And how can you say that nobody is making money in WPA? Andersen sticking out his neck like that has to have a very special motivation. Andersen was never this passionate about any other tournament was he?

 

[bandido]

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Players will go with what will help support their livelihood/family.

I guess the parties will be struggling to get power and control. At whose expense?

You know what they say about power....

Not taking sides here. WTB organizers would prefer top local players to be there. And perhaps some of the top guns also would have wanted to play in the WTB. Why pass up a big payday opportunity?

Pride can be a killer...

Hehehe, funny you mentioned that. BSCP/RAYA/WPA(?) wants to hang on to the power but they somehow forget that with power comes responsibility. The big difference is that the Founders of the BMPAP just want to get everything running smoothly for the Boys and the sport then just act in a consulting capacity. What can be earned in Pool is piddly compared to what can be in other industries. It's just all for the love of the sport for us.

 

[bandido]

LOL! Did he really understand what you asked? According to a signed and dated BMPAP Membership application form that I have in file, it seems like you misunderstood him or got played by him.

Ask him how he did in the BMPAP members-only Villiards Cup-Davao Panersera Pababa, then you'll get your answer.

Doesn't this kind of tell you about players' perception regarding the 2 orgs, BMPAP & BSCP/RAYA? These players are so at ease and relaxed in our events (Pulpul has played in 6 BMPAP events) while they feel put on the spot when in a BSCP/RAYA tournament needing to lie to just be comfortable being there.

What you should have asked Plong-Plong and Arnel is on which side of the "issue" they believe in. But that'll be pointless as most BSCP/RAYA actions that are being complained of concern the internationalist Filipino Players that represent the Philippines of which Pulpul and Arnel aren't. So, in other words your question to him was worthless. They are BMPAP Players based on the membership application that they filled-up and signed pus all the tournaments that they've been a part of. Being on the BMPAP side of the "issue" is another story. They couldn't care less as they are not yet directly affected by the abuse of power.

 

[fanthom]

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. . . Pride can be a killer...

No doubt. In biblical terms, it's one of the 7 DEADLY SINS. You need not look too far in history to see those who succumbed to it. The grinding and gnawing jaws of the sin mill is never satisfied. It continues to eat without mercy and will consume anyone at every opportunity.

 

[PoolGrapevine]

hear rumors that WPA/Ian have a financial stake in the WTBC.Makes sense and explains why they are so adamantly vocal on defending the event

 

[monski]

My simple understanding:

WPA - We carry the best tournaments in the world. We talk to the players, the NSA and people who have the capacity to work our tournaments.

BSCP - We are the NSA. We are affiliated with regional and world organizations. We can send the deserving players to the best tournaments.

RAYA - We are the Top Billiards Promotions company. We have put the Philippines in the map through the tournaments we staged. And we are affiliated with the BSCP.

BMPAP - We are managers and players and we have the country's top players in our association. Billiard promotion is our line too. The Raya and BSCP "tie-up" is not fair. We want a level playing field.

So we are now in chaos. It will definitely hurt the players and the local pool scene.

The way I see it, the International/World pool scene will still move on.

Faces will change too... on all sides. WPA, Raya, BSCP, BMPAP.

Philippine pool? Some players will miss the boat. Some players will maybe lose the chance to have their names etched in stone. Players can't be on top of their game forever. Time waits for no one.

After the war has passed... after the battlefield has dried out, only the grass grows... forever burying the battles and memories of heroes and their stories beneath the fertile soil. Only the rocks know their story.

 

[ribdoner]

My simple understanding:

WPA - We carry the best tournaments in the world. We talk to the players, the NSA and people who have the capacity to work our tournaments.

BSCP - We are the NSA. We are affiliated with regional and world organizations. We can send the deserving players to the best tournaments.

RAYA - We are the Top Billiards Promotions company. We have put the Philippines in the map through the tournaments we staged. And we are affiliated with the BSCP.

BMPAP - We are managers and players and we have the country's top players in our association. Billiard promotion is our line too. The Raya and BSCP "tie-up" is not fair. We want a level playing field.

So we are now in chaos. It will definitely hurt the players and the local pool scene.

The way I see it, the International/World pool scene will still move on.

Faces will change too... on all sides. WPA, Raya, BSCP, BMPAP.

Philippine pool? Some players will miss the boat. Some players will maybe lose the chance to have their names etched in stone. Players can't be on top of their game forever. Time waits for no one.

After the war has passed... after the battlefield has dried out, only the grass grows... forever burying the battles and memories of heroes and their stories beneath the fertile soil. Only the rocks know their story.

The various "alpha" organizations are akin to variants of parasites feeding on the body of pool.

If their gluttony continues unchecked the host is eligible to perish...then what???

 

[sputnik]

My simple understanding:

So we are now in chaos. It will definitely hurt the players and the local pool scene.

The way I see it, the International/World pool scene will still move on.

Faces will change too... on all sides. WPA, Raya, BSCP, BMPAP.

Philippine pool? Some players will miss the boat. Some players will maybe lose the chance to have their names etched in stone. Players can't be on top of their game forever. Time waits for no one.

Monski, congrats to us, we got the UAAP championship this year.

I agree that there is an apparent bad effect on the players. As it is, BMPAP players are like union strikers in a company. They see the Raya players (whom many of them had made an effort to join them into one group even before the formation of BMPAP) as scabs. That is one ugly effect of this rift, but that is not a deep wound. But it is wound enough for them to protest against the "scabs" joining BMPAP tournaments or even the NBL. Their feeling is that (especially the players who crossed into Raya) they are not one of them.

Sure international pool will move on and the Filipinos will be there. One thing though... the number of new tournaments in the Philippines will keep the top Filipino Pros in tip-top shape, and there will be an emergence of new faces like (Zerna, Biado, Plong Plong and Banares) because of the increased pool activity in the country, be it by Raya or by BMPAP. So the over-all effect of the rift in Philippine Billiards -- or shall we say competition -- will be good for the Filipino players and for international pool as they will see even better performance from Filipinos in their tournaments.

But you are wrong in saying that the players will go anywhere money is dangled. You have to believe that majority of the players do not want to get involved in pool politics, but that doesn't mean that they will not fight for their dignity and their rights, and Makabenta has his face on that dartboard.

 

[Renegade]

i think a new talent in pulpul has been found. which is a BMPAP player LOL!!! the world 10 ball crowd this year says it all.. and *i think* most of the *ehem few ehem* crowd in there got in for free. even with general admission ticket you can sit on the tv table :thumbup:

see my avatar? taken at last year's WPC. got ringside seats at general admission prices...

congrats to demosthenes pulpul (or is it pupul??)! hope his newfound fame brings him good fortune. or at least a nice nickname (like dazzler or dynamite)

 

[parvus1202]

or at least a nice nickname (like dazzler or dynamite)

Maybe call him Demosthenes "Demolition Man" Pulpul.

I am British, hence I root for British. But seeing the semi and final, I think if Daz played against Orcollo or Busti, he would have been bloody slauthered.
Ian might be happy that top Filipino players are absent, and he don't care less so more chances for European players to win the title, and we did.
Congrats to Appleton.

 

[jay helfert]

Maybe call him Demosthenes "Demolition Man" Pulpul.

I am British, hence I root for British. But seeing the semi and final, I think if Daz played against Orcollo or Busti, he would have been bloody slauthered.
Ian might be happy that top Filipino players are absent, and he don't care less so more chances for European players to win the title, and we did.
Congrats to Appleton.

You say you saw the final? Wu is every bit as good as any filipino champion, and Darren played great to win. That's the match I watched.

 

[parvus1202]

I watch it on the internet and a friend of mine taped it. Very very slow pace really. What bores me is that, even on a good spread, could be a simple run out, still takes time to shoot. I like Darren, he is a very good shooter, but boring to watch because of snail pace.

 

[quanz]

Agree with you Jay, Wu played spectacular, full of confidence (over a bit ) but the way Darren was shooting yesterday is simply flawless pool, kinda like Ronnie Alcano on 2006 WPC final, he couldn't do anything wrong.
Wu is sloopy at start, too much confidence and gamble on several shots, gave Darren every chance to get in the zone n he did. Late in the match Wu make a come back and apparently he ran out of luck as the one n only dry break of the match happen at 11-12 for Darren (n the table is open), could've been different if it's not a dry break. I say the best match I'd watch so far this year.
Darren is deliberate player, not good for tv, rarely play spectacular shot, but he get the job done, just like Chang Jung Ling @ Guinness Tour.

Oops, just realize I'm OOT here...sorry

 

[unknownpro]

You say you saw the final? Wu is every bit as good as any filipino champion, and Darren played great to win. That's the match I watched.

Your comment could be deemed a little disrespectful, considering the topic of this thread, and who started the thread. Looks like we may have our next TAR match or two lined up...

 

[vin]

see my avatar? taken at last year's WPC. got ringside seats at general admission prices...

congrats to demosthenes pulpul (or is it pupul??)! hope his newfound fame brings him good fortune. or at least a nice nickname (like dazzler or dynamite)

his nickname in plong plong

 

[monski]

Monski, congrats to us, we got the UAAP championship this year.

We're you there during the party? It was a lot of fun... Mud and all... Lets meet up and have a few bro. Homecoming is fast approaching too...

But you are wrong in saying that the players will go anywhere money is dangled. You have to believe that majority of the players do not want to get involved in pool politics, but that doesn't mean that they will not fight for their dignity and their rights, and Makabenta has his face on that dartboard.

I didn't meant it that way. Players need to make money but they also need to be in a place or organization where they feel accepted. This is what I said, "Players will go with what will help support their livelihood/family." They can't support their family if they work in a place where they feel they are not welcome.

In any case I also dont think the rift between the personalities of BSCP/Raya and BMPAP will affect the respect players have for each other. I mean I've gone out a couple of times and I've had a few rounds with some players. No rift among players as far as I can see... which is good.

Both sides have their aces. BMPAP have the most popular local players. BSCP and Raya has the organization and influence. It is my opinion however that the players "support" to the managers have more to do with them not playing in Raya events more than injured pride from qualifiers etc. The WTB organizers welcomed everybody to join... hence some BMPAP players were able join... and they did very well.

Fight for dignity and your rights. Yes. The qualifiers issue was being remedied. Everyone was invited to play. And BMPAP players joined which I thought was good. But where are the big guns? So I go back to my opinion in the previous paragraph. Alex Pagulayan is the exception imo. But even Alex returned to Guinness when requested by the organizers.

 

[bandido]

I didn't meant it that way. Players need to make money but they also need to be in a place or organization where they feel accepted. This is what I said, "Players will go with what will help support their livelihood/family." They can't support their family if they work in a place where they feel they are not welcome.

Did you read AzBHousepro's post about his asking Pulpul about org affiliation. Plong's answer is a reflection of BSCP/RAYA's reputation to these players. He had to lie about his affiliation because he wanted to play yet also is aware of how BSCP/RAYA maltreated BMPAP players in a Guinness Qualifier.

In any case I also dont think the rift between the personalities of BSCP/Raya and BMPAP will affect the respect players have for each other. I mean I've gone out a couple of times and I've had a few rounds with some players. No rift among players as far as I can see... which is good.

Both sides have their aces. BMPAP have the most popular local players. BSCP and Raya has the organization and influence. It is my opinion however that the players "support" to the managers have more to do with them not playing in Raya events more than injured pride from qualifiers etc. The WTB organizers welcomed everybody to join... hence some BMPAP players were able join... and they did very well.

Fight for dignity and your rights. Yes. The qualifiers issue was being remedied. Everyone was invited to play. And BMPAP players joined which I thought was good. But where are the big guns? So I go back to my opinion in the previous paragraph. Alex Pagulayan is the exception imo. But even Alex returned to Guinness when requested by the organizers.

Alex getting invited to play in Guinness Legs bypassing BSCP/RAYA was a slap on BSCP/RAYA's face. Weren't they flaunting exclusive right to send players to Guinness. Didn't they also hold that sham Qualifier then change rules mid-stream just to show the players who's boss?

The BMPAP member players like Pulpul and Bautista weren't players who were slighted by these ego-maniacs. So that should answer your question as to where the big guns are.

What an insult to call what these top-ranked players were subjected to and fighting against as "injured pride".

 

[monski]

Yes I read it. I just thought that if BMPAP players were not welcome, any rumored affiliation with BMPAP would have caused a repeat of the Guinness qualifiers. But they got in. So I felt that somehow the organizers already saw the mistake that they made. They really made a mistake by treating top players the way they did and they know that.

I've also seen other big local tournament suddenly changing rules. So it happened not just to the WTB qualifier.

He lied about being BMPAP? I don't know his reasons for saying what he said. As Sputnik said, maybe he just did not want to be involved in politics. Maybe it was more an act of respect to BMPAP players who did not play. Maybe he did not want to impress upon people that BMPAP players were violating the boycott. I really don't know...

But like "all things" in the Philippines, "Nadadaan sa usapan." (things can be worked out though communication - verbal or non-verbal). Sometimes a word or simple gesture makes everything all right again.

But relationships and debt of gratitude are also big things here. BMPAP can even issue a statement saying that they are encouraging the player-members to forget the past and join Raya events. But if Mr. Puyat says to Efren (for example), You can join the event and its up to you (and he gives out a certain look), Efren can interpret that 2 ways. And imo, Efren will still probably not join.

The big mistake of some people is they fail to recognize the importance of the Manager in the life of pool players in the Philippines. This is culturally ingrained in the hearts and souls of these players. That part, I guess, is one of the main issues in this battle. The managers were threatened. It's like Jueteng (our illegal numbers game), it just won't go. Its a part of our people's way of life. So I think that as long as pool thrives in th country, there will be managers.

So I expect that the parties will still continue to slug it out... and the players who are the "Kings" are also Pawns... just an opinion.