Idcues on E-Bay, Leonard and David Wale

TATE

TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Silver Member
I just want to warn everyone that my good friend just had a very bad experience with Leonard and David Wale. My friend, Bill, is putting together a beautiful collection of early Schon's and bought this cue from them:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7170224836&category=95100&rd=1

He reached a negotiated off the books deal on E-Bay. When the cue came in, it was missing the inlays in the other points. Naturally, they photographed the one point that had the inlay for the ad! The mystery was solved when Evan Clark informed my firend that he thought the cue had been turned in an effort to straighten it, and whoever did the work sanded through the other inays.

David Wale, who has the e-mail address walefam5@bellsouth.net and operates out of Florida, refused to take the cue back, even though my friend contacted him for a refund within a few days. I personally called Leonard and wrote David to no avail. I had, unfortunately, given them a good reference from a prior positive experience.

When they say buyer beware, forewarned is forearmed. Wow.

Chris
 
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PayPal Payment ?

If your friend paid with paypal all you do is send it back and you must have proof you sent it back. I always tell people never ever buy anything on ebay if you can't pay with a credit card using paypal. I got burned paying with my credit card not using paypal. You live and you learn .
 
WHATEVER said:
If your friend paid with paypal all you do is send it back and you must have proof you sent it back. I always tell people never ever buy anything on ebay if you can't pay with a credit card using paypal. I got burned paying with my credit card not using paypal. You live and you learn .
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Unfortunately, this isn't accurate. Since the cue was "Bought & Sold" OFF of Ebay, there is no Buyer Protection whatsoever from PayPal. In this case, the buyer would have been better off paying with a credit card without using PayPal, as V/MC have great buyer protection, fraud and misrepresentation guarantees. (Even if the issuing bank doesn't, V/MC does).

Ever since PayPal became part of the Ebay family, they don't offer Buyer Protection for non-Ebay goods. They might assist with this, but they won't force the seller to issue a refund, or suck it out of his account.

It's a shame, cause if they had let the Auction run to the end and then paid with PayPal, they'd be guaranteed a refund since their description is not accurate. The seller even described the cue's condition as "Excellent", which no one would agree to.

But PayPal guarantees aside, the Seller is obviously not doing the right thing, based on what we read here. I appreciate the heads-up and will add them to my "No-Buy" list.

If it was the Seller's idea to consumate this deal off of Ebay, and convinced the Buyer to do so though some monetary incentive, Ebay might get involved and help out. Ebay does not like fee avoidance schemes, especially if the buyer was essentially an unwilling participant who now has damages.
 
TATE said:
I just want to warn everyone that my good friend just had a very bad experience with Leonard and David Wale.

David Wale, who has the e-mail address walefam5@bellsouth.net and operates out of Florida, refused to take the cue back, even though my friend contacted him for a refund within a few days. I personally called Leonard and wrote David to no avail.
Chris
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Whether this sale was done off the books or not, it seems that the seller clearly lied in the ebay description about the cue being in EXCELLENT shape.
How in the hell does he have 100% rating for positive feedback after all of those transactions? Do you mean out of the clear blue sky he decided to operate on the other side of decency and honesty?

David Wale should absolutely take the cue back. If not, I'd be keeping that name on file and NEVER do business with him and he should be black-balled and boycotted. Now, if David has HIS side of the story to tell...here we are with open ears. Come in David.....
 
drivermaker said:
Whether this sale was done off the books or not, it seems that the seller clearly lied in the ebay description about the cue being in EXCELLENT shape.
How in the hell does he have 100% rating for positive feedback after all of those transactions? Do you mean out of the clear blue sky he decided to operate on the other side of decency and honesty?

David Wale should absolutely take the cue back. If not, I'd be keeping that name on file and NEVER do business with him and he should be black-balled and boycotted. Now, if David has HIS side of the story to tell...here we are with open ears. Come in David.....
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Ditto....these Wale guys need to take it back, showing only the side of the cue with the inlay intact in the photo...that is a big time scam and a rip off. I'll make sure to avoid doing business with them in the future, and I'll make sure my friends do too, unless they fix the problem.
 
Bob Jewett said:
It seems that an auction was in progress with a bid over $1000 and your friend induced the seller to withdraw the item, cancel all bids, and sell the cue to him so as to avoid the eBay charge. Is that right?
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Bob,

My friend was the high bidder. They reached an agreement to buy the cue. It is up to the seller on how to handle that. Many sellers just cancel the auction to avoid E-bay fees (the seller pays all fees).

Now, how I personally handle it if I am the seller is "end the listing early by accepting the highest bid". E-bay now allows it. E-Bay gets paid and it all goes through their system. That way, if you have a problem you can still have some small recourse through the E-bay and paypal complaint process.

However, this way here seller and buyer are pretty much open to fraud.

Chris
 
No matter what the deal or where the forum, this is just wrong! To show a picture of the only point with inlays remaining and represent the cue as being in excellent shape is absolutely an attempt to mislead buyers. Even though Paypal primarily only protects Ebay accounts, I think they are still interested and would probably offer assistance to the victims of fraud. Thanks for the heads up on this incident. I have seen this seller around for a long time, and am glad I never had the misfortune to cross paths with anyone who would attempt this kind of nonsense in this small a community!

Steve
 
WHATEVER said:
If your friend paid with paypal all you do is send it back and you must have proof you sent it back. I always tell people never ever buy anything on ebay if you can't pay with a credit card using paypal. I got burned paying with my credit card not using paypal. You live and you learn .
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Good advice on payment by credit card. I don't think Paypal protects a buyer as much as a credit card company does.

Unfortunately my friend trusted Idcues who is a dealer and used Paypal cash transfer. I am not sure there is any way to be 100% safeguarded against this sort of thing.

It hurts all of us collectors and dealers to have aspiring collectors dealt with like this.

Chris
 
TATE said:
I just want to warn everyone that my good friend just had a very bad experience with Leonard and David Wale. My friend, Bill, is putting together a beautiful collection of early Schon's and bought this cue from them:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7170224836&category=95100&rd=1

He reached a negotiated off the books deal on E-Bay. When the cue came in, it was missing the inlays in three of the points. Naturally, they photographed the one point that had the inlay for the ad! The mystery was solved when Evan Clark informed my firend that he thought the cue had been turned in an effort to straighten it, and whoever did the work sanded through the other inays.

David Wale, who has the e-mail address walefam5@bellsouth.net and operates out of Florida, refused to take the cue back, even though my friend contacted him for a refund within a few days. I personally called Leonard and wrote David to no avail. I had, unfortunately, given them a good reference from a prior positive experience.

When they say buyer beware, forewarned is forearmed. Wow.

Chris
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All in all that it is a strange story. It is hard to believe anyone would sell a cue with missing inlays and represent it as a perfect cue, do they think no one will notice? They have good feed back. Also I don't think the cue was re-turned to make it straight. Even a cue that is only slightly crooked ends up really thin and it is very obvious it have been done no need even to speculate. I am not doubting what you say but it is just hard to believe. Can you post pictures of the cue showing the missing inlays? Are there inlays all the way around the butt sleeve?
 
macguy said:
All in all that it is a strange story. It is hard to believe anyone would sell a cue with missing inlays and represent it as a perfect cue, do they think no one will notice? They have good feed back. Also I don't think the cue was re-turned to make it straight. Even a cue that is only slightly crooked ends up really thin and it is very obvious it have been done no need even to speculate. I am not doubting what you say but it is just hard to believe. Can you post pictures of the cue showing the missing inlays? Are there inlays all the way around the butt sleeve?
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It is a strange story, especially considring the pedigree of the sellers. They deal in some very expensive antique and collectible cues. I am baffled too.

Here are the photos. There are only two windows on the butt sleeve. Looking over the materials, Evan said there was another inlay on the other side of the cue to match the window. I had initially though it had one in each point, but I guess not. It certainly did not have one inlay on the points.

http://www.palmercollector.com/Schon-WaleCue.html

The Schon logo was also missing from the cue. Evan Clark basically won't repair a cue that's been messed around with too much. Here is the text from Evan Clark at Schon.

Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 5:53 AM
Subject: RE: Cue ID


Hi,

When did you get this cue, I have seen it and it has some structural problems. It was repaired poorly by somebody and was so crooked that the inlay on one side was machined out. I declined to perform any work on it. Sorry for the bad news…Evan Clarke


Chris
 
I am truly baffled by the sellers lack of response. The only dealings I have had with this seller were some e-mail inquiries on some old Brunswicks. Thought they wanted too much $$$ (but that's just me) and nothing came of it. In retrospect, it looks like that was a good thing.

Are they aware they are now the subject of conversation in a public forum? One would think that they'd like to tell their side - but clearly the cue was misrepresented and they should have the common sense to make good on it. As was pointed out, the collector community is not a large one and with forums such as this, bad news travels fast. They're only shooting themselves in the foot.

If someone is on good terms with them and can contact them, I'd really be interested in what they have to say.

JMHO.

Adios,

Pizza Bob
 
Pizza Bob said:
Are they aware they are now the subject of conversation in a public forum? One would think that they'd like to tell their side - but clearly the cue was misrepresented and they should have the common sense to make good on it. As was pointed out, the collector community is not a large one and with forums such as this, bad news travels fast. They're only shooting themselves in the foot.

If someone is on good terms with them and can contact them, I'd really be interested in what they have to say.

JMHO.

Adios,

Pizza Bob
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Bob,

Truthfully, I had reservations about even bringing this up on the boards. Even now I wonder if I am out-of-line posting this. But when I think of my friend getting burned like this, I just get steamed.

Chris
 
Thanks for the info on them I always thought they were OK and had them in my favorites on EBAY now that will be deleted ,you never know for sure who to trust :( it's a gamble out there isn't it.Thanks again!

Steven
 
Pizza Bob said:
Are they aware they are now the subject of conversation in a public forum? One would think that they'd like to tell their side - but clearly the cue was misrepresented and they should have the common sense to make good on it.
Click to expand...

Bob,
As someone who just went through this in a sense, they should definately tell their side of the story. Sometimes making good on something isn't enough as we have found out in the past. But you'll read more about this on BD board. :)

Joe
 
This Schon looks very similar to one that Dick Abbott (billiardcue.com) had about 5 years ago. In fact, I'm thinking it's the same cue. Fortunately (or unfortunately depending on how you look at it) I have a good memory when it comes to cues I've encountered. At the time that Dick showed it to me, the cue and inlays were fine so it's probably been messed with since that time. At any rate, I'm thinking there is more to this story....there usually is.
 
cueaddicts said:
This Schon looks very similar to one that Dick Abbott (billiardcue.com) had about 5 years ago. In fact, I'm thinking it's the same cue. Fortunately (or unfortunately depending on how you look at it) I have a good memory when it comes to cues I've encountered. At the time that Dick showed it to me, the cue and inlays were fine so it's probably been messed with since that time. At any rate, I'm thinking there is more to this story....there usually is.
Click to expand...

Sean,

Thanks for the info - appreciate it.

Chris
 
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classiccues said:
Bob,
As someone who just went through this in a sense, they should definately tell their side of the story. Sometimes making good on something isn't enough as we have found out in the past. But you'll read more about this on BD board. :)

Joe
Click to expand...

Joe,

I think you know, in this case I would really welcome a visit by Idcues. I don't think they have the balls to show.

They know what they did.

Chris
 
drivermaker said:
Whether this sale was done off the books or not, it seems that the seller clearly lied in the ebay description about the cue being in EXCELLENT shape.
How in the hell does he have 100% rating for positive feedback after all of those transactions? Do you mean out of the clear blue sky he decided to operate on the other side of decency and honesty?

David Wale should absolutely take the cue back. If not, I'd be keeping that name on file and NEVER do business with him and he should be black-balled and boycotted. Now, if David has HIS side of the story to tell...here we are with open ears. Come in David.....
Click to expand...

I've just been informed by a member that David Wale knows all about this thread but refuses to defend himself.

What does that tell you?

Chris
 
TATE said:
I've just been informed by a member that David Wale knows all about this thread but refuses to defend himself.

What does that tell you?

Chris
Click to expand...


It tells me you need to get "DOG" the bounty hunter on his trail and start prepping the gallows. If you don't defend yourself in a public forum like this where hundreds of people are reading everyday, it means there IS NO defense. Others have gotten blasted on here and came to tell their side of the story and usually the arguments and issues worked themselves out and nobody ended up with a bad name.

Ain't gonna happen here. David Wale will be David Vermin from here on out.
(It's not too late to take care of this David...do the right thing)
 
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