if the APA handicap system really works

It may even be the other way around. I owned a couple of poolrooms and the pool players weren't interested in leagues. I tried to get leagues going in my rooms and they just wouldn't fly, but I think we might have lost business to the bars that had leagues. I think more of the people who play in leagues would frequent pool rooms if they didn't have the leagues.


Thats a point of view I have never heard before and never considered.
In all my years of playing league (17 +) I have always played mostly on 9-foot tables in a pool room. The only rooms I have ever seen run into trouble were the ones that did not have league teams and that was usually because the owner was jerk.

Thanks for the insight.

I wonder if a few other league players could let us know where the play league - bar or poolroom. It would be interesting to know.

Leagueguy
 
It may even be the other way around. I owned a couple of poolrooms and the pool players weren't interested in leagues. I tried to get leagues going in my rooms and they just wouldn't fly, but I think we might have lost business to the bars that had leagues. I think more of the people who play in leagues would frequent pool rooms if they didn't have the leagues.

There's a big difference between "Pool Players" and "League Players"! Pool players are interested in the sport and want to improve. League players just want something to do while they drink and instead of playing real pool, they play the numbers manipulation games to keep their handicaps low.

The other big difference is that, on average, League Players will spend a lot more money when they're shooting pool. There are some pool halls that do fine without leagues (Chris's in Chicago), but I think many are basically kept alive by an assortment of leagues, including APA, TAP, in house, ...
 
Thats a point of view I have never heard before and never considered.
In all my years of playing league (17 +) I have always played mostly on 9-foot tables in a pool room. The only rooms I have ever seen run into trouble were the ones that did not have league teams and that was usually because the owner was jerk.

Thanks for the insight.

I wonder if a few other league players could let us know where the play league - bar or poolroom. It would be interesting to know.

Leagueguy

Bar-rooms, on 9-foot tables. Four different bar-rooms.

The one pool-only hall we've had locally keeps going out of business, primarily due to the landlord charging exorbinant rent (he also owned the tables).

12-16 teams play every APA session. Thats 96 to 128 players, every week, every session. 8-ball only here, some neighboring towns do have both 8-ball and 9-ball going. That's a lot of people playing pool in our area.

The only other league in our town is the in-house league at the fraternal club I belong to. 1/4 the number of players APA has locally.
 
Funny but when it comes to being a high skilled player in the APA yoru job is to not let them score points. This is mostly for 9 ball (straight nine :rolleyes:) where im a SL9 and im playing a SL5. If the SL5 got more than 20 points i would be pissed!!! It was my job as a SL9 to keep my opponents score as small as possible. I knew i was gonna win the match regardless but i felt like i lost if they scored too many points against me :angry:


I tried it out for a couple of seasons and then i never went back. No reward at the end and i had to pay for these runout adn 9 ball break patches?? What a joke
tosser.gif
 
There's a big difference between "Pool Players" and "League Players"! Pool players are interested in the sport and want to improve. League players just want something to do while they drink and instead of playing real pool, they play the numbers manipulation games to keep their handicaps low.

So my money isn't as good for your business as the "real" pool players money is?

And you are quite sure that there aren't any people who play APA that are iterested in improving? None of us? 300,000 people playing this game, and none of us want to improve, we're all sitting here, drunk off our collective asses, calculating ways to rig the handicap system.

It seems to me that because of the leagues, there are many more places to actually play pool than there would be without the leagues. (The whole alphabet soup... APA, BCAPL, TAP, etc) Maybe it's being played in bars instead of "real" pool rooms. But at least it's being played. Without the 1/2 million or so league players out there, how much equipment would be sold? How would those companies be doing without that customer base. Since if you had your way and wiped leagues out of existence, many of those players wouldn't be playing any more, since all we do is drink and figure out how to cheat, being that we're not "real" pool players... We most certainly wouldn't be there to buy equipment from vendors, now would we?

You paint with a very broad brush. I most certainly do want to improve, and I know many folks in my division that want to as well. I'm quite sure there are many who aren't interested, and play only socially, and that's OK. I'm also certain that while there might be a little sandbagging going on, it isn't nearly as outrageous as many of the stories I read here. Most of our players are rated very close to where I believe they ought to be, and if they aren't it's only one level off, usually due to a bad spell of losing.

Your insinuations that ALL APA players don't give a damn about improving is completely off-base, and makes your other arguments look particularly weak. Moreso that you seem to have an axe to grind...

It seems to me that you have a hair across your tookus about Mssrs Hubbart and Bell. That much seems very clear. What have they done to you in the past to make you react so venomously to anything referring to APA? I'm sorry that APA being so successful bothers you so much. Because it sure seems to.
 
So my money isn't as good for your business as the "real" pool players money is?

And you are quite sure that there aren't any people who play APA that are iterested in improving? None of us? 300,000 people playing this game, and none of us want to improve, we're all sitting here, drunk off our collective asses, calculating ways to rig the handicap system.

It seems to me that because of the leagues, there are many more places to actually play pool than there would be without the leagues. (The whole alphabet soup... APA, BCAPL, TAP, etc) Maybe it's being played in bars instead of "real" pool rooms. But at least it's being played. Without the 1/2 million or so league players out there, how much equipment would be sold? How would those companies be doing without that customer base. Since if you had your way and wiped leagues out of existence, many of those players wouldn't be playing any more, since all we do is drink and figure out how to cheat, being that we're not "real" pool players... We most certainly wouldn't be there to buy equipment from vendors, now would we?

You paint with a very broad brush. I most certainly do want to improve, and I know many folks in my division that want to as well. I'm quite sure there are many who aren't interested, and play only socially, and that's OK. I'm also certain that while there might be a little sandbagging going on, it isn't nearly as outrageous as many of the stories I read here. Most of our players are rated very close to where I believe they ought to be, and if they aren't it's only one level off, usually due to a bad spell of losing.

Your insinuations that ALL APA players don't give a damn about improving is completely off-base, and makes your other arguments look particularly weak. Moreso that you seem to have an axe to grind...

It seems to me that you have a hair across your tookus about Mssrs Hubbart and Bell. That much seems very clear. What have they done to you in the past to make you react so venomously to anything referring to APA? I'm sorry that APA being so successful bothers you so much. Because it sure seems to.

You're the one "painting with the broad brush". Where in my posts did I say "ALL" league players? What I'm saying that it's most of them. And it's because the longer they play the more they are forced to manipulate the numbers if they want to keep their teams intact. As people on the teams improve, unless they sandbag, they reach a point where they're forced to break up their team due to the "23 rule". If you play good, you can't be on a team with other players who also play good because you're doomed due to the system! And yes I have been screwed over by Larry Hubbart which I've posted about in depth here and don't feel like typing the entire history over and over again. Also I never said that league players don't buy equipment from vendors. They probably buy more than the real pool players. They also probably get 10 times the DUI's as real pool players but I guess that makes them good because they are supporting the law enforcement and courts also.
 
You're the one "painting with the broad brush". Where in my posts did I say "ALL" league players? What I'm saying that it's most of them. And it's because the longer they play the more they are forced to manipulate the numbers if they want to keep their teams intact. As people on the teams improve, unless they sandbag, they reach a point where they're forced to break up their team due to the "23 rule". If you play good, you can't be on a team with other players who also play good because you're doomed due to the system! And yes I have been screwed over by Larry Hubbart which I've posted about in depth here and don't feel like typing the entire history over and over again. Also I never said that league players don't buy equipment from vendors. They probably buy more than the real pool players. They also probably get 10 times the DUI's as real pool players but I guess that makes them good because they are supporting the law enforcement and courts also.

I'll stop after this.

Thank you for pointing out that you have a history with Larry Hubbart. Stuff happens, and that makes it easier to see why you have such strong opinions regarding APA. No judgements from me. Just perspective, and that makes it easier to try and find common ground.

As for the whole issue of "having to break up teams", I find that particularly amusing. And it comes up in these discussions often, not just from you. I've played APA for just under 2 years now, and I'm on my third different team configuration. Not because of the 23 rule, but because of personalities, schedule conflicts, one very sad and untimeley death, and various other reasons.

I know, in a general sense, probably 90% of the players in our division. It isn't difficult to put together a team to play. Even with all the people that are playing in the current session, there are at least 30-40 more that have played APA here in the past (that I know of) and aren't playing currently. I have played with my best buddy 2 different times, and on another team once. I do not understand why there is such a big fuss made over "having to break up our team". I had as much fun playing against my best friends team as playing on it. We all play together socially, or at least many of us do, very often. The league thing is just another outlet to play.

To me, having to break up a team because the handicaps got too high is a sign that we are improving, and we'll get to play against each other when we set up another team. Again, I play against my friends quite often. Why this has to be any different is beyond me.

I don't recall any of our teams breaking up completely due to handicaps. Occasionally a team will have to replace a player or two, but usually attrition takes care of these issues more often than handicap does. (Life does come before pool, at least occasionally!)

Maybe we're just different here (OK, I'm quite sure we're "different" here :p ) but I find it difficult to believe that other areas aren't like us, so far as the players pretty much all knowing each other. And playing together. Maybe folks in the city are that much different and don't know each other very well. Odd, if you play in the same rooms any amount.

I'll stop now. Neither you nor I will likely change our opinions on this matter, nor we will likely change many other opinions either. Indeed, it is just more hot air!

Have a good night.
 
Thanks for the details. I started out on a team like yours a few years back but we have had so many issues with handicaps being raised we have had to ask people not to play and bring in new players.

Wow im actually surprised that your in first and 3rd with those winning percentages. My Sunday DJ team finished tied for 4th in 8 ball with a 53% winning percentage and in 9 ball 6th with 49.1%. My Tuesday DJ team finished in 1st for 8ball with 66.2% and 7th in 9 ball at 50.7% Only problem is that on Sunday's team we have had 3 people in 8 ball and 5 of the 8 in 9 ball go up to where in 9 ball we can barley field a competitive team. Tuesday is having similar problems. It just seems like finishing first is a huge disadvantage to a team in apa.

let me give you a little more info on our team and the individual players. we are in 1st place in 9 ball by 10 points over our former team. in 8 ball we are in 3rd place 6 points behind 1st. we are 2/3rds of the way thru this session. been in ist place practically all session, went from 5th to 3rd over the last 3 weeks.

all of us are former bar bangers except judy who is a newbie and jason who is a nit for lack of a better description lol. since i have played league off an on for a couple years i have developed a little knowledge of defense but its hard to shake that bar banger mentality entirely. as for the rest of the team the word defense is not even in their vocabulary lol.

last session i dropped from a 5 to a 4 in 9 ball and was raised from a 4 to a 5 in 8 ball. ronnie was raised to a 5 in 9 ball this session and james who just joined apa this session was was raised to a 4 halfway thru this session. we do not have any sandbaggers on our team and our lo does not tolerate sandbaggin at all. we had one on our former team and he was raised this session. our lo also raised another guy from a 3 to a 5 this session. we got a new lo a few months ago and he aint tolerating that stuff.

he stresses accurate scorekeeping and he initiated a bonus program for accurate scoresheets. apparently he looks at score sheets pretty close cause like i said he raised 2 people this session that were sandbagging. he is fair, he lowered my 9 ball h/c last session lol.
 
Thats a point of view I have never heard before and never considered.
In all my years of playing league (17 +) I have always played mostly on 9-foot tables in a pool room. The only rooms I have ever seen run into trouble were the ones that did not have league teams and that was usually because the owner was jerk.

Thanks for the insight.

I wonder if a few other league players could let us know where the play league - bar or poolroom. It would be interesting to know.

Leagueguy

i play sd at a bar on sun afternoons. play dj in a pool hall sun nights.
i checked the website for all the divisions in my town . we have divisions in all the pool halls in town and several bars. even have a division at a vfw, they have 8 teams that play there on saturdays. also they have several teams that play in travel leagues couple nights a week. i find that interesting.

i also play in a money league on monday nights. its a travel league, we play in 3 pool halls and several bars. theres a chitload of teams in my town so i didnt bother breaking down the percentage that play in pool halls vs bars but i feel its about 50/50 in apa. in my money league its more bars than pool halls but we do play in 3 pool halls. btw my money league team is based out of a pool hall.
 
Probably the same amount that already have - at least in my area. When I played APA, the only time I ever visited a "poolroom" (poolroom being defined as a place strictly for pool with 9' tables) was for the novelty tournaments (singles, doubles, money shoots, etc.) and there were only a few of those per year. Certainly not enough for a poolroom to sustain a business on. All the "league" APA I played was in bars on barboxes. The presence of the APA in my area makes no noticeable difference in the thriving of the local pool halls - they all play/practice in bars. In fact, I can name 5 poolrooms which have shut down in my area in the last 10-15 years despite the presence of the APA.

Personally it sounds like some of the "poolrooms" should have adjusted their business strategies, got a few barboxes and got a APA league a night or two during the week. Sounds like the the reason they shutdown was not the presence of the APA but the lack of presence of APA in their establishment. Love it to hate it you have to admit APA brings in people on nights that are generally not busy. I know locally its that way here. I play out of a bar thats just that way. On Tuesday Night during the in-house league there are 12 teams so around 80-90 people each night. During the playoffs or any Tuesday night that doesn't hold league you are lucky to get 10 people all night.
 
You're the one "painting with the broad brush". Where in my posts did I say "ALL" league players? What I'm saying that it's most of them. And it's because the longer they play the more they are forced to manipulate the numbers if they want to keep their teams intact. As people on the teams improve, unless they sandbag, they reach a point where they're forced to break up their team due to the "23 rule". If you play good, you can't be on a team with other players who also play good because you're doomed due to the system! And yes I have been screwed over by Larry Hubbart which I've posted about in depth here and don't feel like typing the entire history over and over again. Also I never said that league players don't buy equipment from vendors. They probably buy more than the real pool players. They also probably get 10 times the DUI's as real pool players but I guess that makes them good because they are supporting the law enforcement and courts also.

What ,in your opinion, is a real poolplayer? I play league in a bar on a barbox but also have a 9 footer at home.
 
From city to city and from league to league there will never be any concistancy. I was a solid APA 5 in both 8 and 9 in San Diego, Now in Denver i am consistatly beating 6s and 7s. And in my local league my handycap puts me with mostly 6s and 7s. Now for the most part people would be like congrats you got better.

I would have to say if i got better after taking about 2 years off from playing pool I doubt i got better. In reality I was able to run a table 2 to 3 outa 5 in San Diego now im lucky to get 1 in 10. So in my view you look at local stats its pretty fair save the sandbaggers which do exist but not as many as people say there on, at least where i have played. But when you go to a national event, I can fairly say that i believe that there could be a differences in rank and skill levels.
 
Personally it sounds like some of the "poolrooms" should have adjusted their business strategies, got a few barboxes and got a APA league a night or two during the week. Sounds like the the reason they shutdown was not the presence of the APA but the lack of presence of APA in their establishment. Love it to hate it you have to admit APA brings in people on nights that are generally not busy. I know locally its that way here. I play out of a bar thats just that way. On Tuesday Night during the in-house league there are 12 teams so around 80-90 people each night. During the playoffs or any Tuesday night that doesn't hold league you are lucky to get 10 people all night.

You need more than a few barboxes to get the APA players. You also need a liquor license.
 
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