If you foul, but your opponent doesn't see it, should you call it on yourself?

Maniac said:
It is never acceptable to cheat in anything in life, but as far as pool goes many times a match, whether it is a league match or a tournament, is played without a referee present. So, in a scenario where there isn't a referee present, the ONLY two people that should be able to call a foul during that match is the shooter and the non-shooter.

Now I ask you, do you really want/expect the non-shooter to be walking around the table behind you/beside you, hunkering down next to you to insure that you don't move a ball or commit some type of cueing foul?

I don't think so.

Maniac (thinks a non-shooting participant SHOULD be sitting as still as possible and as quietly as possible in his/her chair)
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Some people in this thread have made statements insinuate that if someone was to NOT call of foul on one self while playing them, that they would not tollerate it, they would quit playing with them, maybe demand their money if they are gambling cause the opponent was "Cheating".

So would these same people excommunicate their friend for blowing a stop sign but not turning themselves in? Or would they stop talking to a friend who came home from work late because he had some drinks with colleagues, but lied to his wife and said he had to work late?

These are things that happen everyday, and are very similar in action, but yet no one bats an eye at these...
 
Eddie May said:
I believe that that is what people here do... They don't wear their seat belts, they speed, they tell white lies, they show up late for things, they forget to brush their teeth, they dont feed the dog, they cut someone off in traffic, they blow a stop sign, they yell at refs in other sports for making a good call on their home team.....

All of these damn things fall under this umbrella of "cheating" that you people have created, but for some reason these are all acceptable but only certain few things are not? Everyone of the things I mentinoed is "breaking" some rule or some un written rule, but we allow this. Not call a foul on yourself is not techinaclly breaking a rule, fouling it self is, but we don't write ourselves a ticket for blowing a stop sign if a cop doesn't call us on it.... SAME GOD DAMN THING, because blowing a stop sign COULD effect someone else just as a foul could.
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So what you're saying is that since people break all kinds of rules in life, it's ok to ignore them. Any rule, any time. Right?

No sense trying to know right from wrong, or to try and act that way. Right?

Or is it just in this instance, because pool interests you, that its ok?

Well it isnt ok. Yes, we are all flawed creatures. Some if us try to do the right thing more than others, and some of us succeed more than others. But those who disregard the idea of right and wrong are adding more to the problem than those who try and fail. The casual disregard for rules, for right and wrong, has become a major issue. Both in the pool world, and the world at large.
 
justadub said:
So what you're saying is that since people break all kinds of rules in life, it's ok to ignore them. Any rule, any time. Right?

No sense trying to know right from wrong, or to try and act that way. Right?

Or is it just in this instance, because pool interests you, that its ok?

Well it isnt ok. Yes, we are all flawed creatures. Some if us try to do the right thing more than others, and some of us succeed more than others. But those who disregard the idea of right and wrong are adding more to the problem than those who try and fail. The casual disregard for rules, for right and wrong, has become a major issue. Both in the pool world, and the world at large.
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I am not saying that you should just give up and cheat at everything. I am asking why is not calling a foul on yourself in pool an earthquake, while telling a white lie to your wife a burp?
 
Eddie May said:
I believe that that is what people here do... they show up late for things, they forget to brush their teeth, they dont feed the dog.....

All of these damn things fall under this umbrella of "cheating" that you people have created, but for some reason these are all acceptable but only certain few things are not?
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Cheating??? :killingme::lmao::rotflmao::rotflmao1:

These things are a stretch. A lo-o-o-ng stretch!!! :sorry:

Maniac
 
Eddie May said:
I am not saying that you should just give up and cheat at everything. I am asking why is not calling a foul on yourself in pool an earthquake, while telling a white lie to your wife a burp?
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Most of us involved in the thread arent trying to compare the level of cheating to any other form of it....its not a contest or a ranking system.

Doing the right thing shouldn't have to be debated this fervently. But apparently there are those who feel it is ok to disregard the rules, and wish to make a case for it. Up to and including comparing not calling a foul on yourself to running stop signs. Really not an apt comparison, and really not relevant.

You either feel its ok to not call a foul on yourself, which many feel is cheating, or you do not feel it is ok. That is way some people wish their lives. We won't be changing those views in this thread.
 
justadub said:
Most of us involved in the thread arent trying to compare the level of cheating to any other form of it....its not a contest or a ranking system.

Doing the right thing shouldn't have to be debated this fervently. But apparently there are those who feel it is ok to disregard the rules, and wish to make a case for it. Up to and including comparing not calling a foul on yourself to running stop signs. Really not an apt comparison, and really not relevant.

You either feel its ok to not call a foul on yourself, which many feel is cheating, or you do not feel it is ok. That is way some people wish their lives. We won't be changing those views in this thread.
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How are those not a close expample. Let me break it down for you...

Running a stop sign is breaking a law/rule
Fouling is breaking a law/rule

Turning yourself in for running stop sign is not a law/rule
Telling your opponent for a foul is not a law/rule

Running a stop sign can possibly not effect much of anything
Accidently fouling can possibly not effect much of anything

Running a stop sign could possibly END SOMEONES LIFE causing a large effect
Not calling a foul could possibly change the course of an entire game or even and entire match have a large effect.

One is considered not a big deal, the other is considered a clear a blatant cheat and somehow disgraces the game of pool... Why does blowing a stop sign not disgust all other people that drive...
 
Eddie May said:
How are those not a close expample. Let me break it down for you...

Running a stop sign is breaking a law/rule
Fouling is breaking a law/rule

Turning yourself in for running stop sign is not a law/rule
Telling your opponent for a foul is not a law/rule

Running a stop sign can possibly not effect much of anything
Accidently fouling can possibly not effect much of anything

Running a stop sign could possibly END SOMEONES LIFE causing a large effect
Not calling a foul could possibly change the course of an entire game or even and entire match have a large effect.

One is considered not a big deal, the other is considered a clear a blatant cheat and somehow disgraces the game of pool... Why does blowing a stop sign not disgust all other people that drive...
Click to expand...


Crickets?!?!?!?!?!?!
 
Eddie May said:
I believe that that is what people here do... They don't wear their seat belts, they speed, they tell white lies, they show up late for things, they forget to brush their teeth, they dont feed the dog, they cut someone off in traffic, they blow a stop sign, they yell at refs in other sports for making a good call on their home team.....

All of these damn things fall under this umbrella of "cheating" that you people have created, but for some reason these are all acceptable but only certain few things are not? Everyone of the things I mentinoed is "breaking" some rule or some un written rule, but we allow this. Not call a foul on yourself is not techinaclly breaking a rule, fouling it self is, but we don't write ourselves a ticket for blowing a stop sign if a cop doesn't call us on it.... SAME GOD DAMN THING, because blowing a stop sign COULD effect someone else just as a foul could.
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Eddie,

You're not talking about me & I would bet that almost all of the foul callers are more like me than the the people you are describing.

Seems to me you are describing the one's that would not call a foul on themselves. I would guess that more than half of those would think sharking is also okay to use to get a 'win' too.

You seem to be very cynical. Keep in mind that your examples are of the minority of people & if they were the majority, it would not make them right, it would just make them the majority.

Best Wishes,
 
Eddie May said:
How are those not a close expample. Let me break it down for you...

Running a stop sign is breaking a law/rule
Fouling is breaking a law/rule

Turning yourself in for running stop sign is not a law/rule
Telling your opponent for a foul is not a law/rule

Running a stop sign can possibly not effect much of anything
Accidently fouling can possibly not effect much of anything

Running a stop sign could possibly END SOMEONES LIFE causing a large effect
Not calling a foul could possibly change the course of an entire game or even and entire match have a large effect.

One is considered not a big deal, the other is considered a clear a blatant cheat and somehow disgraces the game of pool... Why does blowing a stop sign not disgust all other people that drive...
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Who said it was not ok to cheat at pool but it is ok to run stop signs?

The simple answer is that no one applies the same "decision making rules" to every situation. I don't run stop signs but I do tell white lies. Why? Because both take other people into account. In the former I'm not killing people and in the other I'm just not making someone else feel bad.

And for the record I HATE people who run stop signs. I've had way too many close calls as both another motorist and pedestrian to find it remotely acceptable.
 
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ENGLISH! said:
Eddie,

You're not talking about me & I would bet that almost all of the foul callers are more like me than the the people you are describing.

Seems to me you are describing the one's that would not call a foul on themselves. I would guess that more than half of those would think sharking is also okay to use to get a 'win' too.

You seem to be very cynical. Keep in mind that your examples are of the minority of people & if they were the majority, it would not make them right, it would just make them the majority.

Best Wishes,
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I am talking about the people WHO DO call fouls on themselves, and damn the ones who don't.

For the record I do call fouls on myself, I sometimes california roll stop signs, I always use my turn signal. And I don't judge people based on what they do in any of those situations.
 
Eddie May said:
For the record I do call fouls on myself, I sometimes california roll stop signs, I always use my turn signal. And I don't judge people based on what they do in any of those situations.
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Gee, here's something I agree with 100%.

Maniac (you're a great debater EM and I've just been funnin' with ya)
 
Wow! It seems the holy rollers just can't seem to get over the illusions of "right" and "wrong". Despite the level of logic infused into this argument, they always fall back on ..."it's just wrong".

It would seem that the world now has a specific example for the term "wrong". There are no variables, perspectives have no influence upon it. Ignore all the varying interpretations at hand. It is so black and white accross the board, universally, that it must be true!

Don't call a foul on yourself and you are clearly, by definition now a "cheat".

GIVE ME A BREAK!

I suspect that there's significantly more "grey" area in this topic than the "right" or "wrong" .."black" & "white" proponents have the ability to conceive.

Sadly, I don't think any amount of logical debate will move them from their cause and no level of ethical debate will change mine or those who see the situation differently.

It would seem the whole debate is a stalemate.

BTW, in the case of a tie, I think the broader interpretation should prevail. It's better we should be tolerant of those who don't call fouls on themselves and that way we can do the "right" thing. lol
 
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rrick33 said:
Wow! It seems the holy rollers just can't seem to get over the illusions of "right" and "wrong". Despite the level of logic infused into this argument, they always fall back on ..."it's just wrong".


It would seem the whole debate is a stalemate.
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Actually, IMO, the "holy-rollers" seem to be making up the majority on this subject.

Hardly a stalemate!!!

Maniac (can clearly see who's in the minority here)
 
It is highly likely that the Holy Rollers want to spread the idea of calling your own fouls, only so that their opponents will call fouls on themselves in case they miss it!

This increases the Holy Roller's chances of winning, since every once in a while he might miss a foul!
 
You confuse majority with correctness.

It is often said the majority rules; however, it is never said the majority is always right.

Take a close look at history and you will find too many examples of the majority making bad choices. I can list a few presidents to prove my point.

There was a time when the majority of people thought the world was flat.
 
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There's an old saying in business...treat someone well and they will tell a friend. Treat someone poorly and they will tell the world.

If it seems that there are many more proponents for calling a foul on yourself, it may simply be that those who have been burned in the past take it personally and they flood to the argument.
 
rrick33 said:
There's an old saying in business...treat someone well and they will tell a friend. Treat someone poorly and they will tell the world.

If it seems that there are many more proponents for calling a foul on yourself, it may simply be that those who have been burned in the past take it personally and they flood to the argument.
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The Holy Rollers are smart business men. By preaching to everyone to call their own fouls, they create an atmosphere where their opponents will automatically call their own fouls.

This only serves to help the Holy Roller.
 
you said: "The Holy Rollers are smart business men. By preaching to everyone to call their own fouls, they create an atmosphere where their opponents will automatically call their own fouls.

This only serves to help the Holy Roller. "




This is true if your intent is to influence the regulatory board who sets the rules based on the "atmosphere" or "pulse" of the playing community.

If it is not listed as a rule...it's not going to change.

If you believe this one thread has that power, you better have close ties to a few guys at the top....otherwise, we will still be debating this issue years from now.
 
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