If you foul, but your opponent doesn't see it, should you call it on yourself?

[sjm]

I think it's a matter of whether you have respect for your opponent and respect for your sport.

Golfers police themselves in a way that shows great respect for their opponents and sport. Fail to call a penalty on yourself in golf and get caught and you get disqualified from the event. Nice and simple.

Some pool players may wrap themselves in the flag of "I didn't have to call a foul on myself" but all such players should view themselves as evidencing why pool is and always will be viewed as a sport having just a small fraction of golf's dignity. Such players would surely never have to wonder why pool players are and will likely continue to be second class citizens in the world of sports.

 

[kanecalgary]

I have played weasels before that don't call fouls on themselves. I find it funny after they foul, they peek over at you to see if you noticed, and then try to walk casually onto the next shot like nothing happened! Then, when you call a foul they say "uh,uh, I think it was good", or "are you sure", or " you should have called a ref". These type of players need to have a ref present on all shots.

I avoid gambling with these few players that have this attitude towards pool, even when I'm stealing! If I ever draw them in a tourney, I know I will have to watch like a hawk, and call a ref more.

 

[ENGLISH!]

i think it's a matter of whether you have respect for your opponent and respect for your sport.

Golfers police themselves in a way that shows great respect for their opponents and sport. Fail to call a penalty on yourself in golf and get caught and you get disqualified from the event. Nice and simple.

Some pool players may wrap themselves in the flag of "i didn't have to call a foul on myself" but all such players should view themselves as evidencing why pool is and always will be viewed as a sport having just a small fraction of golf's dignity. Such players would surely never have to wonder why pool players are and will likely continue to be second class citizens in the world of sports.

Tap! Tap! Tap!

 

[JB Cases]

Thanks Krupa. But since so many here...you included (I say with respect) have injected personal preferences on this subject, my personal preference is to believe that the OP...when he asked "should I" was reasonbly referring to the RULES governing whether he should or shouldn't.

That MAY not have been his intent..but that is what I interpreted it to be.

But what strikes me as being SO ODD about this thread is that so many have placed upon pool...and NO other game/sport except golf* the "ethical/moral" standard of self-calling fouls.

I doubt there is a SINGLE forum member who would WANT their home pro football/hockey/basketball team members to self-call fouls...and have them enforced. Such a player would probably be booed off the field including by members of this forum who insist on self-calls for POOL games!

*And even if golf...while there are some legendary examples of self-called fouls....I have seen top pros arguing LIKE CRAZY with the officials about being called on a rule violation...that they flat KNEW they had committed but argued about anyway.

(-:

EagleMan

I will stand up and say that I am someone who would not mind and would prefer to see anyone in any sport call a foul on themselves.

That said I am equally sure that in most team sports where players are TRYING to get away with fouls because it's part of the game....say in basketball for example, you will never see a player call one on himself and if he did then he would be warming the bench forever.

When the IPT was in swing and qualifiers were $2000 entry fee George Breedlove was playing against Alex Pagulayan. The winner would get the spot in the upcoming main event. George brushed a ball, no one saw it but George and he stood up and handed Alex the cue ball and the match.

If he can do that when the ultimate prize was hundreds of thousands of dollars should we be doing less?

 

[RG1]

I play in a advanced player league that you are expected to call a foul on yourself and considered a cheater if you do not.

 

[EagleMan]

I think it's a matter of whether you have respect for your opponent and respect for your sport.

Golfers police themselves in a way that shows great respect for their opponents and sport. Fail to call a penalty on yourself in golf and get caught and you get disqualified from the event. Nice and simple.
Some pool players may wrap themselves in the flag of "I didn't have to call a foul on myself" but all such players should view themselves as evidencing why pool is and always will be viewed as a sport having just a small fraction of golf's dignity. Such players would surely never have to wonder why pool players are and will likely continue to be second class citizens in the world of sports.

Would you kindly cite the golf rule you're referring to?

Rule 34b governing Stroke Play provides...as a matter of fact...that a penalty "must not be rescinded, modified or imposed after the competition has closed." Exceptions only involve "disqualification" penalties which are RARE. Most infractions have a stroke penalty assessed...not disqualification.

Also, in fact...under 34-1b/4 the committee MAY NOT impose a penalty after the last shot of the match... if the player was unware of the infraction....and WHO KNOWS if he was aware or not...excpet HIM?

And as far as I know...the only rule that even SUGGESTS a requirement for self-calling of fouls is the rule against signing an incorrect score card. But that rule doesn't contemplate any "self-reporting obligation"...as far as I know. PLEASE provide a rule to the contrary because I play golf and am interested!

But the "incorrect score card rule" is black and white. Either the score was recorded correctly or it wasn't and ANY evidence of the score being wrong constitutes a rule violation...and as far as I know...PLEASE CORRECT ME...there is no explicit rule obligating a player to adhere to an "honor system" in golf.

But as I've suggested, anyone who thinks that all...or even a large majority of golfers routinely self-report fouls is just clinically naieve. The pros almost always do because their every move is RECORDED and they have OFFICIALS following them around so they basically CAN'T get away with not self-reporting. So that is simply NOT a "fair test" of the honor system. EVERYONE is honorable if they know they will be caught!!!

However, Padraig Harrinton FAMOUSLY did NOT self-report a foul involving moving his ball improperly while legally replacing it on the putting green and not restoring its position. He got DISQUALIFIED for that because someone e-mailed a reference to the foul and it was reviewed by officials on video AFTER THE MATCH was over! (which abides by the rules concerning fouls involving disqualification).

Of course...Harrington insists to this day that the ball had "simply rocked slightly forward, then moved back to its original spot."

Anyone who believes that when the video (it's on youtube) makes it BLATANTLY OBVIOUS that he moved the ball and that it DID NOT replace itself...can send me a PM 'cause I've got some ocean-front property in Phoenix to sell ya!!!

But just one question for the membership at large. WHY should the behavior of pool players with respect to self-calling fouls be ANY differnet than the behavior of those who play virtually any other game/sport??

A. I REALLY don't get that and;
B. I REALLY admire those who DO choose to self-report fouls in pool. I REALLY do and HOPE that I would do so myself....BUT
C. I know of no EXPLICIT rule requiring it AND
D. At a GIVEN PRICE anyone with even a slight interest in telling the truth would admit that FOR ENOUGH MONEY they too would elect NOT to self-report...and just PRAY for the next shot to take the foul OFF. (-:

Maybe "there ain't no atheists in fox holes"...but there also ain't no SAINTS who gamble in pool halls either.

And in many states/cities such gambling is ILLEGAL...so the Saints who say they would ALWAYS self-call a foul regardless of the money involved....are actually criminals if they are gambling illegally...so let's not get TOO carried away with morals/ethics folks.

(-:

EagleMan

 

[EagleMan]

I play in a advanced player league that you are expected to call a foul on yourself and considered a cheater if you do not.

GREAT! I mean it! So, in effect...what you are saying is the you all have agreed to abide by a LOCAL rule...requiring self-reporting. I ADMIRE that!

And therefore, it WOULD be a rule violation (local rules are COMMONPLACE in pool for LOTS of reasons) and you WOULD be cheating if you didn't abide by it.

GOOD FOR YOUR LEAGUE!!!!!

(-:

EagleMan

 

[EagleMan]

I will stand up and say that I am someone who would not mind and would prefer to see anyone in any sport call a foul on themselves.

That said I am equally sure that in most team sports where players are TRYING to get away with fouls because it's part of the game....say in basketball for example, you will never see a player call one on himself and if he did then he would be warming the bench forever.

When the IPT was in swing and qualifiers were $2000 entry fee George Breedlove was playing against Alex Pagulayan. The winner would get the spot in the upcoming main event. George brushed a ball, no one saw it but George and he stood up and handed Alex the cue ball and the match.

If he can do that when the ultimate prize was hundreds of thousands of dollars should we be doing less?

Great story. I saw Archer tell a player he was about to shoot out of turn in a pretty big time tournament. COOL.

But let me ask you a couple of honest questions.

1. How do you KNOW that no one else saw the foul? Sounds pretty doubtful with so many people sweating matches at that level. Again, everyone is a Saint if they're sure they'll be caught!

2. Are you SURE that Breedlove would have done the same thing HILL/HILL shooting at the 9 ball for the Grand Prize of...say...a half million dollars?

Personally, I think that if he did, a certain "spider lady" would have been TOTALLY PISSED OFF!



i'M JUST SAYIN'

(-:

EagleMan

 

[AtLarge]

... please cite for the record, what EXPLICIT RULE there is in the WPA/BCA or any other commonly accepted rule set that OBLIGATES a player to call a foul on him or herself.

I have already addressed your comments about explicit language and analogies with other sports and games more than once, and I am not interested in another back-and-forth on the same things. If you cannot remember what I said, or want to refresh your memory, please read posts #77, 88, 97, 131, 139, and 143.

Incidentally, I think the other poster (that I remember) on this thread who has come closest to my comments about the rules is JB Cases, with this (post #240): "Technically the opponent is due to have ball in hand and if you don't give it to him then you are cheating him out of the rightful state of the table he should have as the incoming player. If you foul and make a ball and continue to shoot then it's also cheating because the rules do state clearly that a foul is loss of turn." So self-reporting is sometimes necessary (when you believe you fouled and neither the opponent nor the referee calls it) to follow the rules.

I believe that there is at least one member of this forum...and one who may have posted in this thread who is either intimately familiar with the WPA/BCA rules process or who may even have served on the committee/board that presides over the rule sets.

Yes, that would be Bob Jewett. His comment (post #156) was "I think both players should try to make sure that all rules are followed even if there is a referee present. Sometimes humans fail in this duty." I could be wrong, but that sounds to me like he's hinting that self-reporting is following the rules.

 

[rrick33]

Justadub stated: "Contrast that with folks like you who want to say that if their opponent doesnt see it, its ok to let it go. I believe there is nothing about it that isn't easy to understand.

You either feel its ok to cheat, or you don't. And when the time comes to uphold that, there will likely be those who choose not to uphold their moral stance. But that doesn't take away from those of us who actively try to make things better by doing the right thing. And it doesn't justify those who mock that stance. "




I think you have made the classic mistake that so many others have when accusing their opponent of "cheating" should they fail to call a foul on themselves.

You assume that if I fail to call a foul on myself that I just continue to keep shooting. This is not the case.

These are two separate events.

The fact that I will not call a foul on myself doesn't mean I will stay at the table. As cited in a previous post....when I foul I simply sit down and allow my opponent to take his inning.

If he's not paying attention and fails to realize that he has BIH, that's on him. It's not my responsibility or even my place to tell him how to play his inning. Once a foul occurs, my inning is over.

I'm not in the habbit of coaching my opponent by giving him critical info once my inning is done.....Are you?

Apparently there are many here who seem content to do just that though I suspect they are unaware their turn was over so they let some mysterious sense of honor guide their misdirected decision.

Let's suppose your opponent is about to shoot the wrong ball and a foul will insue. The competetion is steep but you can see that your opponent is about to make a huge mistake.

Do you step in and advise him? Do you coach him on the error of his ways?

Based on the logic of several posters to this thread, failure to inform him would be a "dishonorable" act. As for me....I stand by the simple premise. When I commit a foul, my turn is over. When my turn is over, it's his turn....I'm not his coach! There's no reason I should call a foul on myself.

I suppose now there will be those who wish to debate when the inning is actually over......

 

[krupa]

I think you have made the classic mistake that so many others have when accusing their opponent of "cheating" should they fail to call a foul on themselves.

You assume that if I fail to call a foul on myself that I just continue to keep shooting. This is not the case.

These are two separate events.

The fact that I will not call a foul on myself doesn't mean I will stay at the table. As cited in a previous post....when I foul I simply sit down and allow my opponent to take his inning.

If you pocket your ball while committing a foul (e.g., double-hit, grazing a ball you shouldn't touch) do you sit down? Is that not implicitly calling your own foul?

 

[rrick33]

It is implicit only in the event I pocket a ball...If I don't pocket a ball, I'm aware the foul has occured but a distracted opponent my not be aware. If I didn't pocket a ball and sit down, he may simply think that I just missed the shot and will play his inning without the benefit of BIH.

I have not robbed my opponent of his opportunity but have held him accountable to pay attention.

There is a price to pay for not being fully involved or focused in the game.

 

[sjm]

Would you kindly cite the golf rule you're referring to?

Rule 34b governing Stroke Play provides...as a matter of fact...that a penalty "must not be rescinded, modified or imposed after the competition has closed." Exceptions only involve "disqualification" penalties which are RARE. Most infractions have a stroke penalty assessed...not disqualification.

Also, in fact...under 34-1b/4 the committee MAY NOT impose a penalty after the last shot of the match... if the player was unware of the infraction....and WHO KNOWS if he was aware or not...excpet HIM?

And as far as I know...the only rule that even SUGGESTS a requirement for self-calling of fouls is the rule against signing an incorrect score card. But that rule doesn't contemplate any "self-reporting obligation"...as far as I know. PLEASE provide a rule to the contrary because I play golf and am interested!

But the "incorrect score card rule" is black and white. Either the score was recorded correctly or it wasn't and ANY evidence of the score being wrong constitutes a rule violation...and as far as I know...PLEASE CORRECT ME...there is no explicit rule obligating a player to adhere to an "honor system" in golf.

But as I've suggested, anyone who thinks that all...or even a large majority of golfers routinely self-report fouls is just clinically naieve. The pros almost always do because their every move is RECORDED and they have OFFICIALS following them around so they basically CAN'T get away with not self-reporting. So that is simply NOT a "fair test" of the honor system. EVERYONE is honorable if they know they will be caught!!!

However, Padraig Harrinton FAMOUSLY did NOT self-report a foul involving moving his ball improperly while legally replacing it on the putting green and not restoring its position. He got DISQUALIFIED for that because someone e-mailed a reference to the foul and it was reviewed by officials on video AFTER THE MATCH was over! (which abides by the rules concerning fouls involving disqualification).

Of course...Harrington insists to this day that the ball had "simply rocked slightly forward, then moved back to its original spot."

Anyone who believes that when the video (it's on youtube) makes it BLATANTLY OBVIOUS that he moved the ball and that it DID NOT replace itself...can send me a PM 'cause I've got some ocean-front property in Phoenix to sell ya!!!

But just one question for the membership at large. WHY should the behavior of pool players with respect to self-calling fouls be ANY differnet than the behavior of those who play virtually any other game/sport??

A. I REALLY don't get that and;
B. I REALLY admire those who DO choose to self-report fouls in pool. I REALLY do and HOPE that I would do so myself....BUT
C. I know of no EXPLICIT rule requiring it AND
D. At a GIVEN PRICE anyone with even a slight interest in telling the truth would admit that FOR ENOUGH MONEY they too would elect NOT to self-report...and just PRAY for the next shot to take the foul OFF. (-:

Maybe "there ain't no atheists in fox holes"...but there also ain't no SAINTS who gamble in pool halls either.

And in many states/cities such gambling is ILLEGAL...so the Saints who say they would ALWAYS self-call a foul regardless of the money involved....are actually criminals if they are gambling illegally...so let's not get TOO carried away with morals/ethics folks.

(-:

EagleMan

Thanks very much for these well considered and well presented insights.

Actually, I was only referring to pro golf, where a failure to assess a penalty on oneself WILL result in the signing of an incorrect scorecard, hence the consequences you have mapped out, but it's the choice of the golf profession to have such a penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard, and that is, indeed, evidence of a high standard of integrity in the sport.

Your point that the level of scrutiny from officials and live/TV viewers is very high is also relevant but it helps to ensure that golfers will hold themselves accountable for all rules infractions.

Loved your quote, "there ain't no atheists in fox holes," and I think I'll use it down the road. Never heard that one before, so thanks for broadening my horizons.

 

[krupa]

But just one question for the membership at large. WHY should the behavior of pool players with respect to self-calling fouls be ANY differnet than the behavior of those who play virtually any other game/sport??

I have never bought into the "everyone is doing it so it's ok for me to" mentality so just saying "they do it in other sports" is not a good reason for me.

C. I know of no EXPLICIT rule requiring [self-called fouls]

I was reading the WPA rules last night and I couldn't find an explicit rule that stated who had to acknowledge the fouls.

D. At a GIVEN PRICE anyone with even a slight interest in telling the truth would admit that FOR ENOUGH MONEY they too would elect NOT to self-report...and just PRAY for the next shot to take the foul OFF. (-:

Hypothetically, I have a price but it's impossibly large. Realistically, there is no situation that I would be in that I would be financially motivated to not self-report.

Maybe "there ain't no atheists in fox holes"...but there also ain't no SAINTS who gamble in pool halls either.

I guess I still get to be a saint; I don't gamble.

 

[CreeDo]

what EXPLICIT RULE there is in the WPA/BCA or any other commonly accepted rule set that OBLIGATES a player to call a foul on him or herself.

It's strange to me this is being used as an argument.
"There's no explicit rule saying I must call fouls on myself. Therefore I don't have to."

Well what if there were? If you're already willing to break the rules without saying anything, why would the 'you must call fouls on yourself' rule change your mind?
What, you need to DOUBLE FOUL before you'll finally give up BIH?


Maybe someone already brought it up, but in WPA:


Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly.


Not calling a foul on yourself meets these criteria.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Maybe someone already brought it up, but in WPA:


Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly.


Not calling a foul on yourself meets these criteria.

CreeDo,

I agree. What is the stated penalty for violation of that specific rule?

Best Regards,

 

[Eddie May]

Why the hell?!

why is it acceptable to "cheat" in every other facist of life but not pool or golf lol?!

 

[krupa]

why is it acceptable to "cheat" in every other facist of life but not pool or golf lol?!

Do you honestly believe that that is what people are saying here?

 

[Eddie May]

Do you honestly believe that that is what people are saying here?

I believe that that is what people here do... They don't wear their seat belts, they speed, they tell white lies, they show up late for things, they forget to brush their teeth, they dont feed the dog, they cut someone off in traffic, they blow a stop sign, they yell at refs in other sports for making a good call on their home team.....

All of these damn things fall under this umbrella of "cheating" that you people have created, but for some reason these are all acceptable but only certain few things are not? Everyone of the things I mentinoed is "breaking" some rule or some un written rule, but we allow this. Not call a foul on yourself is not techinaclly breaking a rule, fouling it self is, but we don't write ourselves a ticket for blowing a stop sign if a cop doesn't call us on it.... SAME GOD DAMN THING, because blowing a stop sign COULD effect someone else just as a foul could.

 

[Maniac]

why is it acceptable to "cheat" in every other facist of life but not pool or golf lol?!

It is never acceptable to cheat in anything in life, but as far as pool goes many times a match, whether it is a league match or a tournament, is played without a referee present. So, in a scenario where there isn't a referee present, the ONLY two people that should be able to call a foul during that match is the shooter and the non-shooter.

Now I ask you, do you really want/expect the non-shooter to be walking around the table behind you/beside you, hunkering down next to you to insure that you don't move a ball or commit some type of cueing foul?

I don't think so.

Maniac (thinks a non-shooting participant SHOULD be sitting as still as possible and as quietly as possible in his/her chair)