Illegal team takes 3rd in Gold at BCA Nationals

oneshotwiss

oneshotwiss

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The team which took 3rd place in the Gold Division had a combined Fargo of 3015 which is over the 3000 limit which means they should have been in the Platinum division. When we brought this up after getting waxed in the 5th-6th place match it was explained that as long as they were under 3000 when they registered, they are legal, have a 50 point cushion and at time of tournament, if they are over 3050, they then have to spot games. We accepted that explanation.
Then the team who got waxed even worse by them in the 4th place match brings up the same issue. It is explained to them that when they registered, Fargo made a mistake and had one of their players as a 140 instead of a 640. This means that had the Fargo rate been correct they would have been well over the 3000 limit to play in the Gold division. The directors answer to that team was, "well, there's not really a whole lot we can do about it now."
I say bs. The team had to have known that their team member was nowhere near a 140 rating and that the Fargo rating was wrong but failed to say anything. Basically, they screwed every team they played out of an opportunity to do better in this tournament and in my opinion, should have been disqualified.
It sounds as though Karma paid them a visit however because I heard they were ahead in the 3rd place match 9-1 and lost 13-12. And the BCA wonders why their attendance numbers fall a little more every year.
 
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As long as they registered under 3000, that is correct. This was very clearly noted on the registration which makes the title to your post incorrect. You even mentioned that you accepted this explanation yet titled it as "Illegal"

As far as the 140 player that should have been a 640, that's not right assuming it's true.

Better luck next time.
 
I didn't assume anything. The CSI people are the ones who told the team which came in fourth that when the team in question registered, one of their player's Fargo was off by 500. Had his Fargo rate been correct they would have been well over 3000. I'm still trying to figure out why CSI gave us and the team which finished 1 spot in front of us 2 different explanations?
 
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Fair enough. I'm sorry if I did not word my reply correctly. Consistency by BCA and CSI is crucial, I'd agree. Either way, great finish. My team went 2 and out and we had a combined FARGO of 2999. LOL For some reason we just did not click this year. Best of luck with your game & future
.
 
I heard all about this from the Dayton, OH team that took 4th. Guess I'm not too shocked at the story. :D
 
oneshotwiss said:
The team which took 3rd place in the Gold Division had a combined Fargo of 3015 which is over the 3000 limit which means they should have been in the Platinum division. When we brought this up after getting waxed in the 5th-6th place match it was explained that as long as they were under 3000 when they registered, they are legal, have a 50 point cushion and at time of tournament, if they are over 3050, they then have to spot games. We accepted that explanation.
Then the team who got waxed even worse by them in the 4th place match brings up the same issue. It is explained to them that when they registered, Fargo made a mistake and had one of their players as a 140 instead of a 640. This means that had the Fargo rate been correct they would have been well over the 3000 limit to play in the Gold division. The directors answer to that team was, "well, there's not really a whole lot we can do about it now."
I say bs. The team had to have known that their team member was nowhere near a 140 rating and that the Fargo rating was wrong but failed to say anything. Basically, they screwed every team they played out of an opportunity to do better in this tournament and in my opinion, should have been disqualified.
It sounds as though Karma paid them a visit however because I heard they were ahead in the 3rd place match 9-1 and lost 13-12. And the BCA wonders why their attendance numbers fall a little more every year.
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If I get your math, they were around 15 points over at the tourney. I don't know what everyone's numbers were when they registered, but, it does seem like they were so close to 3000 that they could have been under 3000 at registration even with the 500 point screw up. I'll give the system the benefit of the doubt.

And, it's not just the Fargo system. NO handicapping system is going to be perfect. Seems like the other team was pretty close to the 3000 cap.

Also - they were on the loser side. So clearly they were beatable in the gold division. Turns out, they played good and got rewarded. I don't think that necessarily means everyone else got screwed.

IMO, the tourney is a huge undertaking. It's not going to be perfect for everyone. I thought it went as well as could be expected. My team stunk it up, but I'm not going to cry foul because we didn't beat everyone. We didn't deserve to win the way we played...

-td
 
td873 said:
If I get your math, they were around 15 points over at the tourney. I don't know what everyone's numbers were when they registered, but, it does seem like they were so close to 3000 that they could have been under 3000 at registration even with the 500 point screw up. I'll give the system the benefit of the doubt.

And, it's not just the Fargo system. NO handicapping system is going to be perfect. Seems like the other team was pretty close to the 3000 cap.

Also - they were on the loser side. So clearly they were beatable in the gold division. Turns out, they played good and got rewarded. I don't think that necessarily means everyone else got screwed.

IMO, the tourney is a huge undertaking. It's not going to be perfect for everyone. I thought it went as well as could be expected. My team stunk it up, but I'm not going to cry foul because we didn't beat everyone. We didn't deserve to win the way we played...

-td
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Assuming the OP story is accurate...

The Ray Charles handicapping system can tell the difference between a 140 and a 640 though...

Perfection is not the goal for rational people, not having a player handicapped wrong by 500 Fargorate points is a pretty fair goal.
 
The top four teams in the Gold division will most likely all be Platinum teams.

I can go from playing as a 140 to a 640 in a 30 minute span. Did it last week. Very frustrating. I have always played at the top of my game in the big tournaments with nice equipment. Tough to gauge everyone in all situations.
 
Every year since the leagues began holding national championships, teams(and players) have slipped through the cracks and into divisions that they shouldn't be in. It's going to take a while to build up enough of a sample size with Fargo so that all players are closer to where they belong but until then, it's going to have flaws and under-rated players(and guys whose ratings are way too high).

It's the nature of the beast unless they deliberately start everyone higher as an unknown or unestablished player so that they are forced to play in events that will accurately log their play and determine their ratings. I've even heard of local events with players entering under aliases so that when they do well they don't get their rating bumped up, which completely defeats the purpose of Fargo.

It used to be the "known ability" clause that was NEVER invoked by league operators so their teams could sandbag into a lower division and now it's just manipulated(or incorrect) Fargo rates.
 
If true this is not a FargoRate sample size problem. Given that 200 is described as an "absolute beginner; may miscue frequently" according to Dr. Dave, declaring someone a 140 in a national competition is like APA classifying someone as an SL1, which doesn't exist.
 
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Thats nonsense

Your info is crap.Simple math would mean all 5 players would then have a total Fargo of about 3500. Which is a 700 average for each one. I happen to know all 5 of the players - and have known them for up to 30 years.

They are good player but nothing exceptional. One player did perform consistently above his head - but he is an aggressive player and can be dangerous if things are working.

Their Fargo is now 3020. And that comes from 559, 609, 609, 631, and 612. A good solid team. Where in the hell is the 500 Fargo that they misplaced'?????

And they lost twice. Sounds like you owe someone an apology. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story!!!!!

Mark Griffin


oneshotwiss said:
The team which took 3rd place in the Gold Division had a combined Fargo of 3015 which is over the 3000 limit which means they should have been in the Platinum division. When we brought this up after getting waxed in the 5th-6th place match it was explained that as long as they were under 3000 when they registered, they are legal, have a 50 point cushion and at time of tournament, if they are over 3050, they then have to spot games. We accepted that explanation.
Then the team who got waxed even worse by them in the 4th place match brings up the same issue. It is explained to them that when they registered, Fargo made a mistake and had one of their players as a 140 instead of a 640. This means that had the Fargo rate been correct they would have been well over the 3000 limit to play in the Gold division. The directors answer to that team was, "well, there's not really a whole lot we can do about it now."
I say bs. The team had to have known that their team member was nowhere near a 140 rating and that the Fargo rating was wrong but failed to say anything. Basically, they screwed every team they played out of an opportunity to do better in this tournament and in my opinion, should have been disqualified.
It sounds as though Karma paid them a visit however because I heard they were ahead in the 3rd place match 9-1 and lost 13-12. And the BCA wonders why their attendance numbers fall a little more every year.
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OP,

Not sure how this happened by your post. I've known one of the players on the third place team for over ten years. He used to be the guy who set players in the correct divisions for BCAPL. Also headed the rules and referee programs. Doubt very highly he would involve himself in such chicanery. In past years, I've questioned some of the teams and players involved in the National event. This is one team I would not doubt for a moment!

Lyn
 
oneshotwiss said:
The team which took 3rd place in the Gold Division had a combined Fargo of 3015 which is over the 3000 limit which means they should have been in the Platinum division. When we brought this up after getting waxed in the 5th-6th place match it was explained that as long as they were under 3000 when they registered, they are legal, have a 50 point cushion and at time of tournament, if they are over 3050, they then have to spot games. We accepted that explanation.
Then the team who got waxed even worse by them in the 4th place match brings up the same issue. It is explained to them that when they registered, Fargo made a mistake and had one of their players as a 140 instead of a 640. This means that had the Fargo rate been correct they would have been well over the 3000 limit to play in the Gold division. The directors answer to that team was, "well, there's not really a whole lot we can do about it now."
I say bs. The team had to have known that their team member was nowhere near a 140 rating and that the Fargo rating was wrong but failed to say anything. Basically, they screwed every team they played out of an opportunity to do better in this tournament and in my opinion, should have been disqualified.
It sounds as though Karma paid them a visit however because I heard they were ahead in the 3rd place match 9-1 and lost 13-12. And the BCA wonders why their attendance numbers fall a little more every year.
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Your whining is unbecoming and your math is nonsensical.

Had one player been rated at 140 the rest would have had to average 717 to make it at 3015. I don't even know 4 amateurs that good much less that could make a team.

You got creamed. It happens. I have lost 7-0 to players rated lower than I am. This team didn't even win the event. Why not?

I love beating people like you. It's never your fault. Your crying makes it all the sweeter.

This event had enough legitimate issues without this kind of fake news crap.

JC
 
But they only took third? Sounds like the team was in the same zone as the top few anyway, no?

I know quite a few folks that would be doing real good matching up as indicated but their ratings. It is a little squishy, the science of Fargo. Badass, but there is a definite margin for error that increases as the amount of data decreases.

You don't have many reported events (robustness), your rating could be way off.

oneshotwiss said:
The team which took 3rd place in the Gold Division had a combined Fargo of 3015 which is over the 3000 limit which means they should have been in the Platinum division. When we brought this up after getting waxed in the 5th-6th place match it was explained that as long as they were under 3000 when they registered, they are legal, have a 50 point cushion and at time of tournament, if they are over 3050, they then have to spot games. We accepted that explanation.
Then the team who got waxed even worse by them in the 4th place match brings up the same issue. It is explained to them that when they registered, Fargo made a mistake and had one of their players as a 140 instead of a 640. This means that had the Fargo rate been correct they would have been well over the 3000 limit to play in the Gold division. The directors answer to that team was, "well, there's not really a whole lot we can do about it now."
I say bs. The team had to have known that their team member was nowhere near a 140 rating and that the Fargo rating was wrong but failed to say anything. Basically, they screwed every team they played out of an opportunity to do better in this tournament and in my opinion, should have been disqualified.
It sounds as though Karma paid them a visit however because I heard they were ahead in the 3rd place match 9-1 and lost 13-12. And the BCA wonders why their attendance numbers fall a little more every year.
Click to expand...
 
JC said:
Your whining is unbecoming and your math is nonsensical.

Had one player been rated at 140 the rest would have had to average 717 to make it at 3015. I don't even know 4 amateurs that good much less that could make a team.

You got creamed. It happens. I have lost 7-0 to players rated lower than I am. This team didn't even win the event. Why not?

I love beating people like you. It's never your fault. Your crying makes it all the sweeter.

This event had enough legitimate issues without this kind of fake news crap.

JC
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He didn't say the guy rated at 140 was on the team with 3015 points. That guy was on the team that beat the team with 3015 points. He never said what thats team fargo was with the wrong rating.
 
raistlinsdragon said:
He didn't say the guy rated at 140 was on the team with 3015 points. That guy was on the team that beat the team with 3015 points. He never said what thats team fargo was with the wrong rating.
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Sorry, but I think you are reading it wrong. Pretty sure the OP was indeed saying that they were told one thing (slight adjustment to above 3000) and that the other team was told that this same team had a 140 player 500 points off. Not sure his post can be read any other way.

By the way, the OP's story shows the danger of hearsay. He was reporting on what he heard was told to another team.
 
First of all, I'm just stating what was explained to us and the Dayton team by the people at the payout desk. They stated that when said team registered one of the player's Fargo rates was wrong. It was 500 off so they registered as a 2515. After registration it was corrected and they were still within the 50 point cushion allowed after registration and came into the tournament at a 3015. The point was that had the Fargo number been adjusted properly before registration, they would have been over the 3000 mark at the time of registration meaning Platinum division for them.
 
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oneshotwiss said:
The team which took 3rd place in the Gold Division had a combined Fargo of 3015 which is over the 3000 limit which means they should have been in the Platinum division. When we brought this up after getting waxed in the 5th-6th place match it was explained that as long as they were under 3000 when they registered, they are legal, have a 50 point cushion and at time of tournament, if they are over 3050, they then have to spot games. We accepted that explanation.
Then the team who got waxed even worse by them in the 4th place match brings up the same issue. It is explained to them that when they registered, Fargo made a mistake and had one of their players as a 140 instead of a 640. This means that had the Fargo rate been correct they would have been well over the 3000 limit to play in the Gold division. The directors answer to that team was, "well, there's not really a whole lot we can do about it now."
I say bs. The team had to have known that their team member was nowhere near a 140 rating and that the Fargo rating was wrong but failed to say anything. Basically, they screwed every team they played out of an opportunity to do better in this tournament and in my opinion, should have been disqualified.
It sounds as though Karma paid them a visit however because I heard they were ahead in the 3rd place match 9-1 and lost 13-12. And the BCA wonders why their attendance numbers fall a little more every year.
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Sorry to hear that. I do not think that most pool players are really all that honorable. I understand that they knowingly cheated, but at least 1 team was able to take them down. If they would have wiped the floor with the entire field, and took 1st place, then maybe BCA would have done something about it. They did get beat by 1 team though (so they were not unbeatable, with their current rated players), and I think that might be why nothing was done about it. I do not know. Just a guess.
 
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