Image of "Billiards"

AOyster

AOyster

Banned
Ok, now that we have the responses of our "image of pool", lets take this to the next phase of thoughts. What is your image of Billiards. Yes, please remember the title as you reply to this post.

Billiards... What are the things you visualize when you here/see this name/word? Looking back to it's origination, way before the word "pool". Capturing the creation of the sport from the wood balls to the ivory balls to today's phenolic resin. From a game with it's history of playing on the ground to now playing on a raised table.

These images are very simialr to the creation of golf, both sports following a very similar creation in time with it's rich history.

Taking a look at the Billiards Encyclopedia.

Please, open yourself to your true visualization of the word without the word "pool" interfering with your reply. Thanks
 
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its a wonderful game, much more difficult than pool for me, It just dosent have much of an image in America, as most of us know its hardly around Amreican pool rooms, in Korea Town in LA there are plenty of billiard rooms, I've been to alot of them in Mexico. I dont know why it isnt more popular in the USA, its a wonderful game. Its image is almost non-existant because its almost non-existant.
 
Fatboy said:
its a wonderful game, much more difficult than pool for me, It just dosent have much of an image in America, as most of us know its hardly around Amreican pool rooms, in Korea Town in LA there are plenty of billiard rooms, I've been to alot of them in Mexico. I dont know why it isnt more popular in the USA, its a wonderful game. Its image is almost non-existant because its almost non-existant.
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Why then are we on a forum called AZ"Billiards"????? Should we change the name of this forum becuase of your thoughts as "non-existant"?

We can stretch the image here to also include "pocket billiards" if it makes it easier for others to understand.

Looking forward to everyones thoughts here...please reply!

Thanks,
 
Pool Digest and Pool Magazine?

Can you imagine the thoughts of a common folk as he casually peruses the magazine section in Barnes and Nobles to come across a couple with the titles "Pool Digest" and "Pool Magazine"? What would be the most common thought here of the content?

I suspect the majority of the thoughts would be "swimming pools".

"Billiards Digest" and "Billiard Magazine" would have not contest as to the content, with all.

As to the "billiard" image above, I would suspect it would be much higher in the positive ranking than the reflection of a "pool magazine" in the intent to describe "playing pool".

Maybe that is why most Barnes and Nobles and Borders don't carry these magazines, the image....
 
Stiff shirted guys with waxed moustaches and underwear too tight, in a big room with animal heads on the wall....stock ticker machine in the corner....and servants of some downtrodden minority being treated with offhand contempt....

Banger McCue
 
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" A rose by any other name...

Hey AOyster! I completely understand what you are getting at. The term "pocket billiards" exists solely for this reason. Think about the difference in saying I am opening up a "pool room" next door, as opposed to I am opening a "billiard palour". To a non player, or an average person, they would feel a lot better about the latter ( or at least it would conjure up a different mental picture).

There were ( and still are in some areas) a lot of strange laws and restrictions placed on pool rooms and their operation. Pool has had an image problem for a very long time. The term "pool" itself comes from pooling bets in gambling parlours and so the game of pool has always been linked with gambling and undesireable people and activities. This is part of both its appeal and its unfavorable place in the publics view. Movies like "the Hustler" etc promote this image. Whenever you tell someone you play pool they almost always ask " so, your a pool shark, huh?" I will usually explain that just because you may put a wager on th outcome, it does not make it hustling. Only when deception is involved, does it become hustling.

To most ( Americans anyway), the terms " billiards" "pocket billiards" and "pool" are all interchangeable and have the same meaning. They do not understand that a billiards table has no pockets, and is a completely different game than pool. When a player says billiards they mean a specific game with 3 balls and no pockets. Every player I know plays pool, and refers to it as such.

To address the Barnes and Noble situation, they do have books like "The complete Idiot's guide to pool and billiards" , "Play your best Pool" and etc. Also do not forget about mags liike " Pool and Billiards" and "Inside Pool" and the like. Although I will give you that whenever pool is on TV it is always referred to as "billiards".

So, that while I agree that the two terms can bring up a different image to many people, most are not fooled by the double talk, and see it as being just that. It may sound better to say it, but in the end it isn't going to make someone who has already made up their mind that the game has negative connotations, think better of it by calling it something else.

Got to go to my pool, er BILLIARDS league tonight! That just doesn't sound right to me.
 
Kinda reminds me of getting a "used car" versus purchasing "pre owned transportation" ! :D

Anybody remember the George Carlin bit on how we use different language to "soften" their meanings? It does a great job addressing this matter. Most of it I won't put down here because it has quite a bit of harsh language!
 
DelaWho??? said:
Stiff shirted guys with waxed moustaches and underwear too tight, in a big room with animal heads on the wall....stock ticker machine in the corner....and servants of some downtrodden minority being treated with offhand contempt....

Banger McCue
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HEY... being a cigar smoker, I resemble that remark!!!! :D
 
poolpro said:
Hey AOyster! I completely understand what you are getting at. The term "pocket billiards" exists solely for this reason. Think about the difference in saying I am opening up a "pool room" next door, as opposed to I am opening a "billiard palour". To a non player, or an average person, they would feel a lot better about the latter ( or at least it would conjure up a different mental picture).

To address the Barnes and Noble situation, they do have books like "The complete Idiot's guide to pool and billiards" , "Play your best Pool" and etc. Also do not forget about mags liike " Pool and Billiards" and "Inside Pool" and the like. Although I will give you that whenever pool is on TV it is always referred to as "billiards".

So, that while I agree that the two terms can bring up a different image to many people, most are not fooled by the double talk, and see it as being just that. It may sound better to say it, but in the end it isn't going to make someone who has already made up their mind that the game has negative connotations, think better of it by calling it something else.

Got to go to my pool, er BILLIARDS league tonight! That just doesn't sound right to me.
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Me either.... It doesn't sound right! Question here is, is it right? If so continue, if not and you want what you do to be a true and honest reflection of exactly what you do then...

What do people think of when they are opening a billiard room, billiard parlour, pool room, pool hall, bar, pool room, etc.

I agree that Barnes and Nobles and such do carry these titles, but the magazines are real hard to find. I would have a better chance finding "Playboy" there. What does this say? Not that there is nothing wrong with that. (I like Sienfeld)...I like Playboy

How about someone introducing "Inside Billiards" magazine or better yet, ..."Inside Cueing Arts", or "Cueing Arts Digest"

I know it seems a bit different and along the road to all major changes we have all learned throughout history, we can remember this..CHANGE

First it is ridiculed

Then it is violently opposed

Finally, it is accepted as self-evident
 
I do not completely disagree with your point. It comes down to semantics. A quote from minnesota fats comes to mind - "putting a pool player in a tuxedo is like putting whipped cream on a hot dog".

Your viewpoint comes from you wanting to validate your profession and passion for this game. I have had similar conversations with non informed people and have had similar responses. I do get what you are saying.

My response to it is generally to just try and get them to understand how great of a game this is by any name. That it has a rich history and has had some very notable players of all walks of life. To let them know what it has to offer, how subtle and wonderful it can be. Once you make this impression in a polite and intelligent way, that person is likely to think of this game in an entirely different way.Be an ambassador for the game ( like my favorite player Mr. Mosconi). Spread it around one person at a time. So, I do agree about the problem with this games image, but not sure that it is just the term by which it is referred to that is the main source of this issue.

Do you think that, hypothetically, if tomorrow we all agreed on a new name for this sport ( neither pool or billiards) and it was universally used immediately, that we could quickly overcome all of the previous issues plagueing pool's image? I would not be inclined to think so. And that example is supposing that we get to start fresh with a brand new, well thought out, marketable name. I still do not think it would do wonders. I think, again, people would see it for what it is.

I am a fan of direct speaking, and getting to the point ( even though it may take me a hundred words to do so!). Often, I feel that my intelligence is being insulted when double speak and watered down language is used, and I am more wary of what is being said at that point.

Seriously, you say you are a fan of comedy ( seinfeld, etc), look up the old George Carlin stand up bit on this topic. I think it says what I am trying to say very well, and illustrates this point very clearly ( and will make you laugh your butt off at the same time). I will see if I can find it and forward it to you.
 
Again, it is just like when people make up fantastic titles for their job. Is anyone on here impressed by the term " custodial engineer" ? Is anyone fooled by it? Just say janitor and be done with it!

Oh, and by the way, I am not FAT, I merely have a " surplus of unused calories". I am calorie challenged. Hey, do I qualify for some government program now? Just the man keeping me down! :D
 
Fantastic reply

poolpro said:
I do not completely disagree with your point. It comes down to semantics. A quote from minnesota fats comes to mind - "putting a pool player in a tuxedo is like putting whipped cream on a hot dog".

Your viewpoint comes from you wanting to validate your profession and passion for this game. I have had similar conversations with non informed people and have had similar responses. I do get what you are saying.

My response to it is generally to just try and get them to understand how great of a game this is by any name. That it has a rich history and has had some very notable players of all walks of life. To let them know what it has to offer, how subtle and wonderful it can be. Once you make this impression in a polite and intelligent way, that person is likely to think of this game in an entirely different way.Be an ambassador for the game ( like my favorite player Mr. Mosconi). Spread it around one person at a time. So, I do agree about the problem with this games image, but not sure that it is just the term by which it is referred to that is the main source of this issue.

Do you think that, hypothetically, if tomorrow we all agreed on a new name for this sport ( neither pool or billiards) and it was universally used immediately, that we could quickly overcome all of the previous issues plagueing pool's image? I would not be inclined to think so. And that example is supposing that we get to start fresh with a brand new, well thought out, marketable name. I still do not think it would do wonders. I think, again, people would see it for what it is.

I am a fan of direct speaking, and getting to the point ( even though it may take me a hundred words to do so!). Often, I feel that my intelligence is being insulted when double speak and watered down language is used, and I am more wary of what is being said at that point.

Seriously, you say you are a fan of comedy ( seinfeld, etc), look up the old George Carlin stand up bit on this topic. I think it says what I am trying to say very well, and illustrates this point very clearly ( and will make you laugh your butt off at the same time). I will see if I can find it and forward it to you.
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Talking about it is the first step! Wonderful thoughtful reply. Thanks!

I found this form Geoarge..is this what you meant?

Billiards. Some people think billiards is a sport, but it can't be, because there's no chance of serious injury. Unless, of course, you welch on a bet in a tough neighborhood. Then, if you wind up with a pool cue stickin' out of your ass, you know you might be the victim of a sports-related injury. But that ain't billiards, that's pool, and that starts with a P, and that rhymes with D, and that brings me to darts.

I am not sure a sport refers directly to 100% strength and athletics. The Cueing Arts is the most balanced of the 3 major aspects, Physical (Performance), Psychological (Preparation) and Mental (Analysis).
Most people think of a sport as mostly physical. This is due to the lack of visual (time based) viewing of each during play. Imagine a tennis player (Roger Federer), he does all of the above but much faster than Tiger, but Tiger wins in the ultimate athelete of 2006. An athlete is someone who is proficient in sports, so we must first define billiards as a sport...is it?

Nothing immediate will ever make a quick change. This is good. Thoughts analysis and subjective comments are key to its success. Maybe we are on to something very positive. The exploring here is the best start.

Just imagine if we all recently within all this had the ultimate influence in the change/addition of the new image name ?...Just imagine!
 
poolpro said:
Kinda reminds me of getting a "used car" versus purchasing "pre owned transportation" ! :D

Anybody remember the George Carlin bit on how we use different language to "soften" their meanings? It does a great job addressing this matter. Most of it I won't put down here because it has quite a bit of harsh language!
Click to expand...

From George Carlin......"In WWI they had "shell shock" shell shock....you know exactly what it means 2 syllibles shell shock.....WWII it was "battle fatigue" Battle Fatigue...a little longer but still understandable.....By the time Vietnam came around, we had "post traumatic stress disorder" post traumatic stress disorder? what the f#ck is post traumatic stress disorder??????


Shell Shock.....:D

Banger McCue
 
Makes me wonder why N E 1 bothers to respond. He is a troll, that posts under lots of different names like JPeters from CCB, SFreedman on CCB,

Brian
 
DelaWho??? said:
From George Carlin......"In WWI they had "shell shock" shell shock....you know exactly what it means 2 syllibles shell shock.....WWII it was "battle fatigue" Battle Fatigue...a little longer but still understandable.....By the time Vietnam came around, we had "post traumatic stress disorder" post traumatic stress disorder? what the f#ck is post traumatic stress disorder??????


Shell Shock.....:D

Banger McCue
Click to expand...

Yes, yes, yes. That is the one I am talking about! It is a rather long skit, every bit of it funny. It has nothing to do with billiards or pool, it has to do with language and the things that we try to tell ourselves. Which is how I see the topic of this thread. You do not change the reality of something just by renaming it.


AOyster, I completely agree with you on the negative image of pool among many people. I do feel that pool IS a sport and should be given respect as such. I have had that debate many times, and could go on quite a bit on that. By the way the IOC ( International Olympic Comittee has already declared it as such). I think they may know a thing or two about what constitutes a sport!

Again, I mostly agree with what you are saying. Where I disagree with you is on the topic that a simple name change will be effective in correcting the situation. This is salesmanship. I believe words are important and powerful. However, using watered down double speak, or catch phrases and slogans do nothing but mislead and make people wonder about your intentions.

Look at what the government does. They can spin anything and make it sound like it is a good thing. Here is a perfect example : The Patriot Act. Do you know that this was voted down as unconstitutional prior to 9/11? Very soon after 9/11, when emotions were high, they repackaged it and re titled it the Patriot Act and slid it through when no one was looking. Who would dream of voting against something with a title like that, during the aftermath of a terrorist attack? Many people who voted for this, now regret it greatly. Maybe I am wrong, look at how important a name is. I think maybe I am proving your point:D . Maybe you should get the government to do your public relations for you. I am kidding, and I do not wish to turn this into a political issue.

My real main point is that words are, or can be, very misleading ( especially for dishonest people). And that merely changing how we refer to something does not really change it. I would be very suspicious of someone using a lot of double speak and new names. It is only skin deep. I also believe that intelligent people will see through such a manuever instantly and only become more suspicious of what comes next. Yes, pool could use an image makeover, but it would have to be a lot more than a name change. So, we ( as pool players) has an image of being dishonest hustlers. Do you think the answer is to fast talk our way out of it? " No, you guys got it all wrong, you are looking for the pool players. You just missed them. We are Sphere Collision Experts!! Nice to meet you, here, take a brochure." How many people will buy this, and would you really be impressed by winning over those who do?

Thanks for letting me rant.
 
A Cueing Artist

poolpro said:
Yes, yes, yes. That is the one I am talking about! It is a rather long skit, every bit of it funny. It has nothing to do with billiards or pool, it has to do with language and the things that we try to tell ourselves. Which is how I see the topic of this thread. You do not change the reality of something just by renaming it.


AOyster, I completely agree with you on the negative image of pool among many people. I do feel that pool IS a sport and should be given respect as such. I have had that debate many times, and could go on quite a bit on that. By the way the IOC ( International Olympic Comittee has already declared it as such). I think they may know a thing or two about what constitutes a sport!

Again, I mostly agree with what you are saying. Where I disagree with you is on the topic that a simple name change will be effective in correcting the situation. This is salesmanship. I believe words are important and powerful. However, using watered down double speak, or catch phrases and slogans do nothing but mislead and make people wonder about your intentions.

Look at what the government does. They can spin anything and make it sound like it is a good thing. Here is a perfect example : The Patriot Act. Do you know that this was voted down as unconstitutional prior to 9/11? Very soon after 9/11, when emotions were high, they repackaged it and re titled it the Patriot Act and slid it through when no one was looking. Who would dream of voting against something with a title like that, during the aftermath of a terrorist attack? Many people who voted for this, now regret it greatly. Maybe I am wrong, look at how important a name is. I think maybe I am proving your point:D . Maybe you should get the government to do your public relations for you. I am kidding, and I do not wish to turn this into a political issue.

My real main point is that words are, or can be, very misleading ( especially for dishonest people). And that merely changing how we refer to something does not really change it. I would be very suspicious of someone using a lot of double speak and new names. It is only skin deep. I also believe that intelligent people will see through such a manuever instantly and only become more suspicious of what comes next. Yes, pool could use an image makeover, but it would have to be a lot more than a name change. So, we ( as pool players) has an image of being dishonest hustlers. Do you think the answer is to fast talk our way out of it? " No, you guys got it all wrong, you are looking for the pool players. You just missed them. We are Sphere Collision Experts!! Nice to meet you, here, take a brochure." How many people will buy this, and would you really be impressed by winning over those who do?

Thanks for letting me rant.
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Hey Propool..

Thanks for the ranting and I think we all are pretty much on the same page with all this (except for a few).

As I said in my "Image of Pool: post, I am not trying to change the name of "pool", that would be way to big a task for me alone.

What I am inquiring about with these posts is the reflective image of using the the "Cueing Arts" and again, I did not coin this phrase. I am not sure who did but our good friends at Cue-Tech have been using this term since at least the early 90's. http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=college+of+cueing+arts&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

I noticed this on Randy's business card over 20 years ago and liked it and its ability to relect on the sport and it players as more of a professional level approach, instead of the "bar pool" bangers who merely play the game for the social aspect. Most "bar-pool" players just enjoy the arena and are not interested in the professional level approach. These players could care less about the many things we all study and think about like tangent lines, deflection, skid, etc. I am sure most of us here are clearly in that catagory and simply using a different term to reflect that clear difference is what this is all about, nothing more!

I would think that the point of these forums is for this purpose. Discussing this is the first step and this was my intent.

Remember again..I am not trying to change "pool" at all. I would never want "bar-pool" players to use the term "Cueing Arts" to reflect what they do.

One other similarity here comes to mind. A painter vs an artist. Are they the same? The both use a brush and paint.

A Cueing Artist is an artist with the cue ball. A "pool" player is reflective as .....well, we all know that image.

And again, if anyone doesn't like "Cueing Arts" don't cry to me. Speak to Randy and Cue-Tech about that one. I just happened to like it and its true reflection of what we do as Cueing Artist!
 
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