"Ask not what your pool game can do for you, but what you can do for your pool game"...:groucho:.. "6 Ball, side pocket Fast Eddie" Minnesota Fats
Image of Pool, in Fact, was Created by a Con Artist
- Thread starter CJ Wiley
- Start date
"Ask not what your pool game can do for you, but what you can do for your pool game"...:groucho:.. "6 Ball, side pocket Fast Eddie" Minnesota Fats
Seriously, how did you come up with this from what I wrote????
None of it makes sense to me. I gave an example of the mindset of some of pool's practitioners.
It speaks to their values, morals, ethics and where they set the line defining right from wrong.
That was not meant as a detour from the context of this thread to shaft ownwership.
But since I'm here, I'll try to respond to a question or two you've asked.
When you buy a shaft you own it. That doesn't give you the right to reverse engineer patented technology
contained in that shaft to market your own version and prosper from the efforts of others.
Predator hasn't 'shared' their technology with anyone. It's stolen.
"Are you saying the original maker STILL OWNS the shaft that I bought and paid for?"
I've reread my post and I can't find where I said this. Maybe you could point this out to me.
Hopefully this isn't the basis for your response to my post.
I'm capable of speaking for myself. I don't need people to be making stuff up for me to respond to.
"It is not as clear as you make it out to be."
With all due respect, if you have difficulty in determining right from wrong, you may just be
one of the practitioners I was eluding to.
KJ
Is it impossible?
You are absolutely right
... they were saying that about poker (and internet marketing) back then as well.
You are absolutely right
... they were saying that about poker (and internet marketing) back then as well.CJ...Just a slight correction...Cue Tech was Randyg's pool school. You're referring to J & S Sales, which was the parent company manufacturing and selling Cuetec Cues.
Scott Lee
http
oolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http
oolknowledge.com
You are absolutely right
The main difference if you want to compare poker is, poker basically have benevolent benefactors. Most poker tournament are little more then infomercials for the sponsoring casinos. They have deep pockets and are no on TV because of some public demand to see it, they pay to put it on to reach a small niche audience. there is nothing like that in pool. You are assuming poker is being played by everybody because they give away money and you see it on TV. Poker was huge long before that. Actually a very small percent of the public probably plays poker on any regular basis. I would say there are a lot more pool players then poker players in the general population.
Last edited:
Mistakes are always forgivable, if one has the courage to admit them.
Bruce Lee
Lou Figueroa
KJ,
You believe in a free market and property rights, I would assume? Well, the free market is always working to overcome scarcity. It cannot eliminate it entirely, but through cooperation, application of knowledge, and human action, it is always battling towards that end.
Anyway, if you believe in the free market and property rights, then you should know that there are two ways to own something: You find it. Or you buy it.
Creation (or ideas, or knowledge) only apply (and make you wealthier) if you apply labor to something you have already bought or found, say a piece of wood or a even a whole supply of building materials to build a house. If you have the knowledge and wherewithal and you build a house, would you think that the first man or woman who built a house now owns yours? Or even has some right to some money because you invested your own human action (scarce) and built your own?
Creation of ideas in itself does not confer property rights over any piece of wood in the form of a cue shaft...such as one that Jeff owns, or any other personal property for that matter. And since he owns it, Jeff is free to do with it as he pleases, he may raise some chickens and trade some eggs to a craftsperson to make his piece of wood "better". Again, progress. This is a mutually beneficial exchange for Jeff and someone who wants some eggs ~ the craftsperson.
Well, back on point: two ways to own something, find it, or buy it. Things are scarce. An unimpeded market is always working to overcome scarcity. Not infinite abundance for everyone, but more wealth and abundance. This is good. The more, the better. So why would we want someone with guns pointed to our head (via enforcement of intellectual property laws) to say that we are going to make something artificially scarce? That makes no sense in this light ~ granting monopoly privilege via the state on ideas? Ideas cannot be owned, they are plentiful, they occur every day, are infinitely reproducible and should be shared...Ideas guide action, but should not confer property rights.
Historical origins:
Patent = monopoly privilege.
Copyright = censorship.
Now, I don't have any idea what Jeff may have been referring to...perhaps he will elaborate further. :smile:
JMHO. ICBW.
With all due respect.
Peace.
~Razor
Last edited:
Well, to get us back on track, I am not sure if the Image of Pool was in fact created by a Con Artist, but:
The most effective way to change an image or perception (if it needs changed) is to prove it wrong consistently. Show everybody that what they believe is very different from reality. This is impossible of course if the perception = the true reality.
That's it for now...
Peace and hit 'em straight.
~Razor
The most effective way to change an image or perception (if it needs changed) is to prove it wrong consistently. Show everybody that what they believe is very different from reality. This is impossible of course if the perception = the true reality.
That's it for now...
Peace and hit 'em straight.
~Razor
CJ...Just a slight correction...Cue Tech was Randyg's pool school. You're referring to J & S Sales, which was the parent company manufacturing and selling Cuetec Cues.
Scott Lee
http
I stand corrected.....J & S Sales with Don and Janet S. . . it may have been a Freudian slip
Randy G. was my original partner in Champs which became CJ's and is located here in Dallas
Ya Got Trouble in River City/the bad image marketed to kids by a unicorn
Relax, Lou, don't sick Bruce Lee on me ....are you trying to say my post that pool's bad image in the MUSIC MAN's 'Ya Got Trouble in River City' was NOT started by a con artist? I've watched the video several times and he appears to be a con man to me....does this somehow trouble yourself? This movie was seen by millions of people and I think a lot of them would agree ...it was even marketed to children in the form of a cartoon (DISGUISED AS BOWLING) and he was a unicorn ....so the image of pool was represented to kids by a horse with a horn? ....does that make you feel better :deadhorse:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mcj3rhP_Elo
Relax, Lou, don't sick Bruce Lee on me ....are you trying to say my post that pool's bad image in the MUSIC MAN's 'Ya Got Trouble in River City' was NOT started by a con artist? I've watched the video several times and he appears to be a con man to me....does this somehow trouble yourself? This movie was seen by millions of people and I think a lot of them would agree ...it was even marketed to children in the form of a cartoon (DISGUISED AS BOWLING) and he was a unicorn ....so the image of pool was represented to kids by a horse with a horn? ....does that make you feel better :deadhorse:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mcj3rhP_Elo
Last edited:
The Game is the Teacher....Everyone can do their part
It's difficult for me to listen to negativity concerning how we "can't get pool/billiards back in the Main Stream Media again".....the reason for the decline in mass appeal Is Not the Game, it's "out of sight, out of mind" ;-) 'The Game is the Teacher' .....let's all do our part to positively promote the Game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj5ZV3sSc6g&feature=plcp[/URL
It's difficult for me to listen to negativity concerning how we "can't get pool/billiards back in the Main Stream Media again".....the reason for the decline in mass appeal Is Not the Game, it's "out of sight, out of mind" ;-) 'The Game is the Teacher' .....let's all do our part to positively promote the Game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj5ZV3sSc6g&feature=plcp[/URL
What really is the point of this question regarding the very nice musical, The Music Man containing the joke about pool and its perception of that time? When talking about the image of pool, are you discussing the origin of that image historically or in that musical? As I said that image was rather different if you go back in time, particularely among the field of serious music and has always varied with the individual as it does today.
By Jove I think we've got it
The historic element didn't have the biggest effect because not many people were exposed to it....the Music Man on the contrary was seen by millions of people young AND old that was influenced by it....'The Hustler' added to that synergistically....the rest (of the influence) was history....although the 'Color of Money' is credited to the boom of the late 80's / early 90's (that I was lucky enough to be a part of)...the challenge is figuring out a formula that will work for today....and by jove I think we've got it :dance:
The historic element didn't have the biggest effect because not many people were exposed to it....the Music Man on the contrary was seen by millions of people young AND old that was influenced by it....'The Hustler' added to that synergistically....the rest (of the influence) was history....although the 'Color of Money' is credited to the boom of the late 80's / early 90's (that I was lucky enough to be a part of)...the challenge is figuring out a formula that will work for today....and by jove I think we've got it :dance:
Because you wrote this in the post I responded to:
...In this case, it's perceived that it's acceptable to steal the intellectual property of others.
Make no mistake, it is stealing. Yet some will turn a blind-eye to the fact that it's criminal....
What if it is NOT theft? You're making a matter-of-fact claim that it is. What is it isn't? I provided info to the contrary and asked questions about your claim.
I was trying to help everyone's understanding of intellectual property in today's world.
Why the bad attitude towards me for that?
Jeff Livingston
The song in the musical is about "Professor" Harold Hill trying to convince the good folks of River City that the new pool table just delivered to the local billiard parlor is going to corrupt the youth of the town.
What I others have been trying to point out is that your initial premise, expressed in the title of this thread, "Image of Pool, in Fact, was Created by a Con Artist" is wrong historically. In a later post when you say, "This song REALLY started all the bad rumors about pool rooms...." you continue to be in error as far as the historical and sociological studies of the game are concerned.
You seem to not be able to get this.
Lou Figueroa
a spade is a spade and a con is a con
I'm not sure what your point is....the historical impression didn't create the impact that the marketing did on this country ... and this "professor" performed a "con" (lie) on the city about pool being a negative influence....don't tell me you think he was right....no, seriously, don't tell me :groucho:
I'm not sure what your point is....the historical impression didn't create the impact that the marketing did on this country ... and this "professor" performed a "con" (lie) on the city about pool being a negative influence....don't tell me you think he was right....no, seriously, don't tell me :groucho:
Last edited:
My point is that "The Music Man" did not "in fact create the image of pool" in this country any more than "Guys and Dolls" created the image of the underworld of New York City.
Lou Figueroa
Yes, I believe in a free marketplace and I most certainly believe in property rights.
I also agree with you that when you buy something, you own it. I believe I've already stated that
in my reply to Mr. Jeff Livingston 'chefjeff'.
Since I'm having to repeat myself, let me also reiterate that because you own something, that doesn't
give you the right to reverse engineer it to make a copied version to sell to the masses and profit
from the labors of others. That is stealing, plain & simple, by my value system anyway.
Apparently, you and Mr. Livingston feel differently, which is fine, as you're entitled to your opinion
and personal values, morals and ethics. Why else would you try to justify it?
This has been the gist of my posts from the first. It's not about shafts, that was used as an example
as there is a thread currently running on this forum pertaing to just that.
It's about the values and beliefs that are the baggage of pool and what that brings to the community.
People tend to dislike thieves, whether it's personal property theft or intellectual property theft.
Again, stealing is stealing and no matter how it's spun, it's still stealing. There is no justification.
Your and Jeff's attempts at this justification are what bothers people considering taking up pool as
a recreational outlet. They want nothing to do with it. Hustling is also stealing and that assoiciation
with pool is going to be a tough sell. Look, I'm not setting the rules, I'm just bringing you the news.
Pool in itself is a wonderful sport. It encourages hand-eye coordination and competition.
Even the ocassional gambling is acceptable, to me anyway, because it's a matter of free-choice.
The hustling and particularly the 'set-ups' are not. That's the stealing element.
It's not the game that's bad, it's the baggage associated with it, the baggage carried by some of it's pratitioners.
Everyone involved in pool knows it exists but they've chosen to accept that it exists because of their love of the game.
This may be why pool-halls are closing at an alarming rate yet home table sales are rising.
People want the game, they just don't want to have to be exposed to the seedy element of the game.
Do you blame them???
KJ
I can't answer for others, but I am not trying to justify stealing. Anyone who has read my posts here on AZ would most certainly agree to that. I am trying to get others here (not you, so much, as your mind is self-proclaimed to be closed on this subject) to better understand intellectual property (IP) rights and how those might not really exist as property, but something else entirely.
There's a big storm a brewin' re IP and a lot of pool folks who invent and write are involved, like it or not, in that concept. One had better understand what changes are happening worldwide so as not to get left behind or cheated along the way.
Jeff Livingston