In defense of JR

[drivermaker]

The problem is that the term "feel" is incorrect.

In other words, each shooter has consciously learned how to pot balls. Once done numerous times, the subconscious mind has now learned it and takes over the task, freeing up the conscious mind to do something else. By using a process of integration (my term is "The Recipe"), one can then add new aiming information via the conscious mind again, and overlearn that, so the subconscious mind can take over that task, too. Thus, some come to call it "feel," when it is really overlearned skill.

Jeff Livingston

Geezus...I never thought I'd see the day when we agreed on something as we have here on the term "feel". It IS totally INCORRECT.

What's actually happening IMO is that the so called "feel" junkies have come into a state of arrested development regarding "aiming methods" and think that they've come as far as they're ever going to come in that area of pool and once you reach a certain level, you don't need any more. It's almost like anti-learning/anti-knowledge.

With that, anything that borders on something different from what they consciously learned and now forgot about is foreign, contrived, mechanical, and will take away from the "nothingness of aiming".

Eventually, it ALL becomes subconscious even for Houligans. Hell, ESPECIALLY for Houligans because it's so damn effective. You do think less.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Hmmm
Ever see a quick-draw competitor?
You know, like with a western style wheel gun?
They aim. I wonder what system they use to aim?
And how the hell to they find time to use it?

Good point!

I would add, that when we look down the cue, with two eyes, trying to perceive the line of the CB, we have to imagine it intuitively. It is quite different to aligning crosshairs to a distant point with one eye.

This intutive mental process is part of what I term feel As in, I feel tired, I feel like DM's gonna dance on my hat for this. It is part of the process of thinking, or judgement or guessing.

 

[chefjeff]

Geezus...I never thought I'd see the day when we agreed on something as we have here on the term "feel". It IS totally INCORRECT.

What's actually happening IMO is that the so called "feel" junkies have come into a state of arrested development regarding "aiming methods" and think that they've come as far as they're ever going to come in that area of pool and once you reach a certain level, you don't need any more. It's almost like anti-learning/anti-knowledge.

With that, anything that borders on something different from what they consciously learned and now forgot about is foreign, contrived, mechanical, and will take away from the "nothingness of aiming".

Eventually, it ALL becomes subconscious even for Houligans. Hell, ESPECIALLY for Houligans because it's so damn effective. You do think less.

You and I are on the same page more often than you might think...we just arrive there from different directions...oh, and my jokes are better (except for the antler/table thingy you came up with---that was classic).

Here's what I wrote in 1997: "Many fine players have plateaued in their games because they've stopped conscious learning (and re-learning) and rely soley on slipping into deadstroke." Yes, that's right, deadstroke can be a curse! And people are always looking to go there first....hmmmmm...

However, the consious mind had better be used like a filter---carefully used to eliminate bullshit from overtaking the subconscious mind and limiting my output. That's why I like the physics, as it helps me to stop learning the wrong stuff so I don't have to UNlearn as much bullshit before I add the good stuff. Once learned though, I can forget the physics calculations and just use what I know, what I REALLY know, not what I used to pretend to know.

Does that make sense?

Jeff Livingston

 

[DaveK]

This is beyond a shadow of a doubt the most ridiculous post you've ever made. I can't even imagine if you tried harder, that it could get more nonsensical.

The only thing CaptJR is going to get from me is a Mexican Hat Dance and now a Riverdance on top of his cap.

We have 5 senses...TASTE; SMELL; HEARING; SIGHT; and FEEL. Each one is SEPARATE. The process of aiming is VISUAL...We use our SIGHT and EYES to LINE UP THE BALLS. IT CAN'T BE DONE ANY OTHER WAY.

FEEL comes from the fingers and hands. Close your eyes to take a shot and tell me how FEEL allowed you to do it. For someone to continually say that it comes about as a result of feel needs to get touch with what their eyes are doing.

NOBODY CAN PLAY BY FEEL OTHER THAN A BLIND PERSON.

The eyes and VISUAL IMAGERY play the role in orienting us to the balls. Some ways, methods, and SYSTEMS are better than others. WAKE UP!!

OK, OK, I'm awake ! In order :

Yep.

I wanna see that, big DM feet stomping a little cap cap.

Sure, 5 senses, it's the eyes that see whatever we see when shooting pool.

Now on to 'feel', one of the physical senses enabled by nerves, or a metal state perhaps described as thoughts of 'wellbeingness', what is it today ? So what about the mental feeling of 'correctness' or 'incorrectness' ? It is possible that many align their shots not by any method other than getting down and pointing the stick at the cueball, then making adjustments according to how they feel about the existing alignment. Kinda like, OK, too far left, come back, not that far, good.. this feels about right ... KABOOM !

I would agree that a reliable method for alignment is a much better idea than just getting over a shot an adjusting till 'it looks right'. Having said that I have learned to listen to that little voice that says "this doesn't feel right", even though I am a scientific-type Engineer.

Dave

 

[drivermaker]

I have an ex co-worker who could draw and snap before you could pull the trigger. It was amazing.
How fast can they shoot?
http://www.fastdraw.org/video/fastestg-men.wmv
How accurate can they be?
deadly
http://www.fastdraw.org/video/cal-blanktarget.wmv

I've been to this site before and these guys are incredibly fast. My brother is into western history and guns during that time period. I always buy a bunch of new stuff for him in the way of books about all the lawmen, robbers, and gunslingers along with replica guns for his birthdays and xmas. I almost bought the "HOW TO" fast draw video's for him and probably still will.

It's still a little different than shooting pool though.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Geezus...I never thought I'd see the day when we agreed on something as we have here on the term "feel". It IS totally INCORRECT.

What's actually happening IMO is that the so called "feel" junkies have come into a state of arrested development regarding "aiming methods" and think that they've come as far as they're ever going to come in that area of pool and once you reach a certain level, you don't need any more. It's almost like anti-learning/anti-knowledge.

With that, anything that borders on something different from what they consciously learned and now forgot about is foreign, contrived, mechanical, and will take away from the "nothingness of aiming".

Eventually, it ALL becomes subconscious even for Houligans. Hell, ESPECIALLY for Houligans because it's so damn effective. You do think less.

Different authors of psychology and metaphysics use different terms to describe similar things.

Personally I don't think the word sub-conscious is correct, though it often makes more sense to the reader. I believe it is conscious and that feel can be conscious.

I don't mean it in the touchy feely sense. I'm no hippy or Oprah fan.

The so called sense of feel operates through the nerve endings from the skin and through all organs including the eyes, smell receptors, taste receptors and ears as well as the brain. It is uniquely different from the other senses which are simply sensors.

It is no coincidence that it many languages the term for feel relates both to the touch sense and mental processes.

It may not be a part of the emperical sciences you are familiar with, but it is a key aspect of the meta-physical sciences.

How do you feel about that you heathen pagan

 

[drivermaker]

It is possible that many align their shots not by any method other than getting down and pointing the stick at the cueball, then making adjustments according to how they feel about the existing alignment. Kinda like, OK, too far left, come back, not that far, good.. this feels about right ... KABOOM !

I would agree that a reliable method for alignment is a much better idea than just getting over a shot an adjusting till 'it looks right'.

Dave

Yep...that's exactly what they do. I called it the "FIDGET SYSTEM". But Dave, that going back and forth with the cue is STILL a GUIDED EFFORT ultimately determined by the EYES. Maybe I should call it the "FUMBLE FUCKING AROUND HACK SYSTEM".

Your second paragraph above answers all other questions along with every "feel" naysayer anti-aiming post. That hits the nail on the head.

 

[BazookaJoe]

I've been to this site before and these guys are incredibly fast. My brother is into western history and guns during that time period. I always buy a bunch of new stuff for him in the way of books about all the lawmen, robbers, and gunslingers along with replica guns for his birthdays and xmas. I almost bought the "HOW TO" fast draw video's for him and probably still will.

It's still a little different than shooting pool though.

Of course it's different
But, any more different than golf? archery?
In Zen and the art of archery, there is the account of the instructor shooting the bullseye in the dark. It's a different arena, but the same concept.
I believe in "feel" when it comes to such things. I can tell you I can't hit a barn with my pistol or my bow using "feel". I can however scatter a sporting clay using "feel"

 

[BRKNRUN]

Hmmm
Ever see a quick-draw competitor?
You know, like with a western style wheel gun?
They aim. I wonder what system they use to aim?
And how the hell to they find time to use it?

I don't like the gun shooting analogy..... Here is the problem...With a gun your shooting at a already "identified" target.

In pool.....anyone can hit a specific identified spot on the rail...(how easy is it to shoot a CB straight into the pocket) Thats not a system...thats just skill or execution.

The difference in pool is that you first have to be able to "identify" what is the correct target....and since the "actual contact" points on a CB and OB are not always immediatly obvious, I "sometimes" need a system to help me "identify" the target...

If I am going to shoot you in the forehead with gun, I don't need to have a "system" to identify the target.

(Since the balls are round, your contact points between the two balls may not be your "target", they may be the "result" of your target)

 

[Cane]

Hmmm
Ever see a quick-draw competitor?
You know, like with a western style wheel gun?
They aim. I wonder what system they use to aim?
And how the hell to they find time to use it?

I have a friend who competes in quick draw competitions. The "wheel gun" he uses has a modified cylinder that accepts .22 caliber blanks and fires a 45 caliber wax bullet. The bullet fragments when it leaves the barrel, making it much like a shotgun... hundreds of little wax pellets coming out of the end of the barrell. The targets he uses are balloons blown up to about 8" daimeter and are only about 12 feet away... AIMING in quick draw competitions is much like AIMING to hit the end rail with the cue ball from the head spot... I don't really think Quick Draw aiming and Pocket Billiads aiming can be compared at all.

Now, every watch 1000 meter rifle competitions... THOSE guys can put 10 shots from a .300 WinMag in a 10 inch circle... they take their time, insure they breath right, move as few body parts as possible, insure their body and head are inline with their rifle the SAME WAY every time... now THAT is aiming! ...but quick draw is just slinging. That's all about speed, not accuracy, thus the use of wax bullets that fragment and close up targets.

Later,
Bob

 

[drivermaker]

Different authors of psychology and metaphysics use different terms to describe similar things.

Personally I don't think the word sub-conscious is correct, though it often makes more sense to the reader. I believe it is conscious and that feel can be conscious.

I don't mean it in the touchy feely sense. I'm no hippy or Oprah fan.

The so called sense of feel operates through the nerve endings from the skin and through all organs including the eyes, smell receptors, taste receptors and ears as well as the brain. It is uniquely different from the other senses which are simply sensors.

It is no coincidence that it many languages the term for feel relates both to the touch sense and mental processes.

It may not be a part of the emperical sciences you are familiar with, but it is a key aspect of the meta-physical sciences.

How do you feel about that you heathen pagan

I think you've been sucking on too many Chinese herbs grown out in the mountains and need to discuss this with Dr. Phil or Wayne Dyer. You're REALLY stretching your imagination now.

 

[BazookaJoe]

I don't like the gun shooting analogy..... Here is the problem...With a gun your shooting at a already "identified" target.

In pool.....anyone can hit a specific identified spot on the rail...(how easy is it to shoot a CB straight into the pocket) Thats not a system...thats just skill or execution.

The difference in pool is that you first have to be able to "identify" what is the correct target....and since the "actual contact" points on a CB and OB are not always immediatly obvious, I "sometimes" need a system to help me "identify" the target...

If I am going to shoot you in the forehead with gun, I don't need to have a "system" to identify the target.

(Since the balls are round, your contact points between the two balls may not be your "target", they may be the "result" of your target)

Can you look at a ball on the table and identify the point that you must contact to knock it in the hole?
That's the target. You don't need to be down on the shot to identify this target. It's always there. And, it's always the same spot.

 

[BazookaJoe]

I have a friend who competes in quick draw competitions. The "wheel gun" he uses has a modified cylinder that accepts .22 caliber blanks and fires a 45 caliber wax bullet. The bullet fragments when it leaves the barrel, making it much like a shotgun... hundreds of little wax pellets coming out of the end of the barrell. The targets he uses are balloons blown up to about 8" daimeter and are only about 12 feet away... AIMING in quick draw competitions is much like AIMING to hit the end rail with the cue ball from the head spot... I don't really think Quick Draw aiming and Pocket Billiads aiming can be compared at all.

Now, every watch 1000 meter rifle competitions... THOSE guys can put 10 shots from a .300 WinMag in a 10 inch circle... they take their time, insure they breath right, move as few body parts as possible, insure their body and head are inline with their rifle the SAME WAY every time... now THAT is aiming! ...but quick draw is just slinging. That's all about speed, not accuracy, thus the use of wax bullets that fragment and close up targets.

Later,
Bob

Hmmmm (again)
BTW the targets for national competition are 4" balloons.
around the same size as a billiard pocket.
And at 12' away, it's 3' further than a standard pool table.
And ,properly loaded, the bullets shatter on contact and not before.

 

[drivermaker]

Of course it's different
But, any more different than golf?

Do you have any idea...any idea at all, how much focus and thought is put into the actual alignment and aiming process by a PGA professional on each and every shot?? They REALLY make a conserted effort to get that down pat each and every time. NOTHING IS LEFT TO CHANCE OR "FEEL"!! It is a very methodical and exact way that they all develop to get into the shot properly. Watch it on TV...it never fails on every shot for each of them.

On the other hand...a weekend golfer or hack gives one glance at the green and walks up to the ball and thrashes away.

Once a PGA pro is aligned properly and he's confident about it, THEN FEEL takes over in his swing and he just lets it happen.

Hell, many of the LPGA pros also have their caddy help in the aim and alignment process. The rule is they then have to step away while the player actually swings.

 

[BazookaJoe]

Do you have any idea...any idea at all, how much focus and thought is put into the actual alignment and aiming process by a PGA professional on each and every shot?? They REALLY make a conserted effort to get that down pat each and every time. NOTHING IS LEFT TO CHANCE OR "FEEL"!! It is a very methodical and exact way that they all develop to get into the shot properly. Watch it on TV...it never fails on every shot for each of them.

On the other hand...a weekend golfer or hack gives one glance at the green and walks up to the ball and thrashes away.

Once a PGA pro is aligned properly and he's confident about it, THEN FEEL takes over in his swing and he just lets it happen.

Hell, many of the LPGA pros also have their caddy help in the aim and alignment process. The rule is they then have to step away while the player actually swings.

But you must realize the difference with alignment and aim.

 

[drivermaker]

But you must realize the difference with alignment and aim.

Oh, but I do Mr. Bubble Gum....and they tie in together the same way for pool as in golf and both have an effect on the other.

Tell me how the haphazard way is better?

 

[GeraldG]

I have an ex co-worker who could draw and snap before you could pull the trigger. It was amazing.
How fast can they shoot?
http://www.fastdraw.org/video/fastestg-men.wmv
How accurate can they be?
deadly
http://www.fastdraw.org/video/cal-blanktarget.wmv

When I was about 16 I knew a guy that decided that he wanted to be a Quick-draw artist. He swiped his dad's S&W Mod 19 to practice with. He was fast alright....damned fast. Before he knew what was happening he had shot himself through the leg with a .357 semi-wadcutter. Luckily he didn't hit the bone in his thigh, the bullet went through the flesh on the outside of his leg and came out in back just above the knee. Made a hell of a mess out of the soft tissue, though. It took him about a year to get (for the most part) recovered. Apparently they didn't treat his mental condition that got him in that spot to begin with, though. After he recovered, he decided to try again. He got a .22 Western Style SA revolver from somewhere and tried again...this time he missed himself, but shot a hole through the floor in his bedroom. I quit hanging around with him then.

 

[DaveK]

Tell me how the haphazard way is better?

I'm not Mr Bubble Gum, but I'll give this one a try ... Haphazard is better because it it easier to justify when you miss. Using a standard method and then missing causes more mental anguish. It's much less stressful to ignore the truth and hide in some mystical fog of feeling.

Also, haphazard is better when you want to take a long time to learn how to reliably pot a pool ball, since it takes a long time to develop a reliable feeling about any given shot if you have no method for determining the right aim/alignment for any given shot.

Take that, you heathen pagan Houlegin !

Dave.

 

[BazookaJoe]

Oh, but I do Mr. Bubble Gum....and they tie in together the same way for pool as in golf and both have an effect on the other.

Tell me how the haphazard way is better?

Let's use sporting clays as an example. A modified choke patterns about 80% of the pellets in a 30" circle at 40 yards.

Your stance (alignment) is to have your non-dominant foot slightly forward and back foot @ shoulder width from the front foot. Giving you a comfortable alignment toward your hot zone.
Now to AIM a shotgun is ludicrous. The lead on the target and knowing when to pull the trigger is done by POINT and FEEL. This I believe is relatively as accurate as laying up on a green or dropping onto a fairway that is 40-50 yards wide.

 

[BazookaJoe]

I'm not Mr Bubble Gum, but I'll give this one a try ... Haphazard is better because it it easier to justify when you miss. Using a standard method and then missing causes more mental anguish. It's much less stressful to ignore the truth and hide in some mystical fog of feeling.

Also, haphazard is better when you want to take a long time to learn how to reliably pot a pool ball, since it takes a long time to develop a reliable feeling about any given shot if you have no method for determining the right aim/alignment for any given shot.

Take that, you heathen pagan Houlegin !

Dave.

Why don't you read who you are quoting, and keep up if you are going to post relies.