$$$$$ in pool

trustyrusty

trustyrusty

I'm better with a wedge!
Silver Member
I don't know why I even open the threads, really. So, instead of posting in one of them, I'll just air my thoughts here. It seems EVERY "what's wrong with pool" or "pool's flaws" thread revolves around what the top players make versus other sports/games. Do you really think folks participate/spend money in those other sports and games because they think they can become that top player? The underlying theme in most of the threads is "what can pool give me?".

Let's take golf for example (a norm in most of these threads); I know quite a few golfers as well as pool players. The difference between the two is what's mentioned above.....most if not all of the golfers don't wonder what golf will give them back. They still buy their $50+ a dozen ProV1s every month, a latest greatest $300+ driver every year, and either pay a season pass, or pay what most pool players would think as exorbitant prices just to play (greens fees). They really don't care if the top player makes $20 Mil a year or $50+ Mil in endorsements. They play to play against buddies, have a good time, escape their job or life responsibilities for a few hours a week, etc. They play because they want to play, not because there could be some payoff to it in the end!

Same holds true for leagues....in golf, you are more than content to play in a league that has a year end scramble, with food, menial prizes (often not won due to your quality of play BTW), and a trophy or two. Yet in pool league threads, WATCHOUT if the league doesn't give the best team/player ALL the cash collected from the session..lol.

I guess my summation of this "what's wrong with pool" thread ends up being close to the same as others overall....the problem is GREED, but in my case I don't think it's the greed of so and so running tourneys, or leagues, it's the greed of everyone thinking that pool owes them something, just because they play it!!!
 
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trustyrusty said:
I don't know why I even open the threads, really. So, instead of posting in one of them, I'll just air my thoughts here. It seems EVERY "what's wrong with pool" or "pool's flaws" thread revolves around what the top players make versus other sports/games. Do you really think folks participate/spend money in those other sports and games because they think they can become that top player? The underlying theme in most of the threads is "what can pool give me?".

Let's take golf for example (a norm in most of these threads); I know quite a few golfers as well as pool players. The difference between the two is what's mentioned above.....most if not all of the golfers don't wonder what golf will give them back. They still buy their $50+ a dozen ProV1s every month, a latest greatest $300+ driver every year, and either pay a season pass, or pay what most pool players would think as exorbitant prices just to play (greens fees). They really don't care if the top player makes $20 Mil a year or $50+ Mil in endorsements. They play to play against buddies, have a good time, escape their job or life responsibilities for a few hours a week, etc. They play because they want to play, not because there could be some payoff to it in the end!

Same holds true for leagues....in golf, you are more than content to play in a league that has a year end scramble, with food, menial prizes (often not won due to your quality of play BTW), and a trophy or two. Yet in pool league threads, WATCHOUT if the league doesn't give the best team/player ALL the cash collected from the session..lol.

I guess my summation of this "what's wrong with pool" thread ends up being close to the same as others overall....the problem is GREED, but in my case I don't think it's the greed of so and so running tourneys, or leagues, it's the greed of everyone thinking that pool owes them something, just because they play it!!!
Click to expand...

A good friend says basically the same thing in a different way:

"There are two kinds of people in pool.

First guy is gonna spend $50 on a night out. He can do it anywhere but he chooses to spend it on pool and all he wants is a good time. Few beers, dinner whatever and some pool. expects nothing but get some entertainment value for his money.

Second guy has $50 in his pocket and his whole goal is to come home with $100 and he will be upset or feel like he "lost" if that doesn't happen.

We have way too many of the second guy and nowhere near enough of the first guy in this country."

Both his and your's are some of the most succinct statements on one of the largest issues pool faces in the U.S.

The thing of it is it only takes one or two of the second guy to kill a room for the first guy to come into. The first guy can go spend that $50 anywhere while the second guy will just sit on a barstool b!tching and drinking water.
 
JCIN said:
A good friend says basically the same thing in a different way:

"There are two kinds of people in pool.

First guy is gonna spend $50 on a night out. He can do it anywhere but he chooses to spend it on pool and all he wants is a good time. Few beers, dinner whatever and some pool. expects nothing but get some entertainment value for his money.

Second guy has $50 in his pocket and his whole goal is to come home with $100 and he will be upset or feel like he "lost" if that doesn't happen.

We have way too many of the second guy and nowhere near enough of the first guy in this country."

Both his and your's are some of the most succinct statements on one of the largest issues pool faces in the U.S.

The thing of it is it only takes one or two of the second guy to kill a room for the first guy to come into. The first guy can go spend that $50 anywhere while the second guy will just sit on a barstool b!tching and drinking water.
Click to expand...

Actually, I think we have a half million league players that fall in the first category. The second category is lucky to be even 1% of that. It's just that they are more vocal.
 
trustyrusty said:
I don't know why I even open the threads, really. So, instead of posting in one of them, I'll just air my thoughts here. It seems EVERY "what's wrong with pool" or "pool's flaws" thread revolves around what the top players make versus other sports/games. Do you really think folks participate/spend money in those other sports and games because they think they can become that top player? The underlying theme in most of the threads is "what can pool give me?".

Let's take golf for example (a norm in most of these threads); I know quite a few golfers as well as pool players. The difference between the two is what's mentioned above.....most if not all of the golfers don't wonder what golf will give them back. They still buy their $50+ a dozen ProV1s every month, a latest greatest $300+ driver every year, and either pay a season pass, or pay what most pool players would think as exorbitant prices just to play (greens fees). They really don't care if the top player makes $20 Mil a year or $50+ Mil in endorsements. They play to play against buddies, have a good time, escape their job or life responsibilities for a few hours a week, etc. They play because they want to play, not because there could be some payoff to it in the end!

Same holds true for leagues....in golf, you are more than content to play in a league that has a year end scramble, with food, menial prizes (often not won due to your quality of play BTW), and a trophy or two. Yet in pool league threads, WATCHOUT if the league doesn't give the best team/player ALL the cash collected from the session..lol.

I guess my summation of this "what's wrong with pool" thread ends up being close to the same as others overall....the problem is GREED, but in my case I don't think it's the greed of so and so running tourneys, or leagues, it's the greed of everyone thinking that pool owes them something, just because they play it!!!
Click to expand...

Fantastic post.


Alhough I think that it is not as bad as everyone here on AZ makes it seem like it is.

The problem here is that the majority of the opinions you get are from the same type of player. Those players who are good enough that they think that they could be pro's if the game had something to offer them. You don't get alot of opinions (a few that I knowbut not many) from people who actually play the game because they love the game and don't want, need or expect to get anything back from it.

I will continue with your comparison of pool to golf. I think if the majority of golf opinions you got was from people who were good enough to play in the Q school or on lower end regional or pro tours, then you would likely get differeing opinions than you would if you talked to they guy who wants to play golf with his buddies on the weekend.

I think what appears "to be wrong with the game" is simply seen that way because most of the opinions come from 1 type of player. If you got equal opinions from more low level league players and even some pool room owners thrown in, you might actually belive that the game is fine.

I personally see nothing wrong with the game.

While it would be nice to have a pro tour (and I still think it can be done), I don't think that there is anything wrong with the game and the way it is currently being run.

I know I enjoy it, and the majority of my friends enjoy it and most of the people I play with seem to enjoy it.

Leagueguy
 
Wags said:
Actually, I think we have a half million league players that fall in the first category. The second category is lucky to be even 1% of that. It's just that they are more vocal.
Click to expand...

The main problem is that we just don't hear very many opinions from that type of player.

Leagueguy
 
JCIN said:
A good friend says basically the same thing in a different way:

"There are two kinds of people in pool.

First guy is gonna spend $50 on a night out. He can do it anywhere but he chooses to spend it on pool and all he wants is a good time. Few beers, dinner whatever and some pool. expects nothing but get some entertainment value for his money.

Second guy has $50 in his pocket and his whole goal is to come home with $100 and he will be upset or feel like he "lost" if that doesn't happen.

We have way too many of the second guy and nowhere near enough of the first guy in this country."

Both his and your's are some of the most succinct statements on one of the largest issues pool faces in the U.S.

The thing of it is it only takes one or two of the second guy to kill a room for the first guy to come into. The first guy can go spend that $50 anywhere while the second guy will just sit on a barstool b!tching and drinking water.
Click to expand...

I really don't mind the b!thching and complaining all that much Justin, but usually they are the one's who won't spend a dime unless they KNOW they will double that dime.

Good example from our recent state tourney. Nick Varner is there setting up a booth to sell his wares, and has a "challenge" table. Race to 2 in barbox 8 or 9 ball. $10 to play. After I finish playing, multiple players asked what I won? I said 2 out of 3 games. Of course, that got strange looks, some laughs, and shakes of the head....I'm a dummy for losing $10. Ask just about ANY basketball player if they'd pay $10 to play some one on one with Jordan, or a golfer if he'd pay $10 to play a couple of holes with Tiger. None of the guys that asked me about playing Varner offered up $10 to him....SAD!
 
Very good points guys, thanks for this thread. I never thought of it that way but you're right. The only thing pool is lacking is exposure. You don't see real pool on tv. If I never see another trick shot it will be too soon. There are only two things that truly worry me: How many pool halls are dying each year, and how pool is gravitating toward smaller tables so it's easier for the masses of people who don't put in the hours to become good players. It's harder to find action these days and that has sapped some of the fun out of it for me too however. Does that make me part of the problem too?
For the most part I agree, there isn't really too much wrong with pool and I will always love it.
 
JolietJames said:
Very good points guys, thanks for this thread. I never thought of it that way but you're right. The only thing pool is lacking is exposure. You don't see real pool on tv. If I never see another trick shot it will be too soon. There are only two things that truly worry me: How many pool halls are dying each year, and how pool is gravitating toward smaller tables so it's easier for the masses of people who don't put in the hours to become good players. It's harder to find action these days and that has sapped some of the fun out of it for me too however. Does that make me part of the problem too?
For the most part I agree, there isn't really too much wrong with pool and I will always love it.
Click to expand...

There is nothing wrong with a little "action" while playing. NOTHING AT ALL. The problem happens when the guys walk into the poolhall, looks around for a bit, doesn't find any action, and walks right on out. No food, no drink, no table time, no nothing....
 
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For the sake of my "RANT" I will use the following skill levels to make my point: Novice, Intermediate, Advanced, Seasoned Veteran, and PRO.

Novice players play leagues, or date night and just enjoy being with friends. More than likely will never play in a tourney. They are a huge part of our survival, supporting rooms and their owners. Make up a good part of our leagues.

Intermediate players play leagues, enter tourneys and want to get better.................but complain about Advanced and Seasoned Vets playing in their league, or if a Seasoned Vet is in tourney they dont' enter. They haven't realized yet, playing this competition will only make them better!! Expect Advanced players to be handicapped or banned from league.............etc.....

Advanced players are in the top 10 of their leagues, play as many tourneys as life will allow. They want to match up with Seasoned Vets, and hope to play a Pro in an event to get the experience. This group has won a tourney here and there, and compete at a very high level. In most tourneys they are the guts of the event with an occasional win or top 10 placement. They will play sets for cash, most not for big $$. KINDA "NO MANS" LAND in the pool world!!! Most don't have the time to invest to get that next level because of family and life etc.. and are looked at by the lower levels as Pros or something!!

Seasoned Vets are the guys always winning events..............multiple tourney wins, National Master status in BCA or whatever league there in. They play sets for the cash, cash or win in any event.....always on their game. Some only play pool for a living. You can easily pick them out of the crowd as a top 10 finisher in tourney. Some have ventured into Pro events and done well. Novice and Intermediate players want NOTHING to do with these guys.

Pro player.............well we know who they are.

The above being said the majority of players don't know where they are on the scale, or are not honest about it. WIth no real STANDARD to monitor players it is difficult for players to advance their skill level. To many players playing down, because there is no where for them to go at the higher levels. As they progress I guess they do feel as though they are owed higher pay outs etc......


Mike
 
tksix said:
For the sake of my "RANT" I will use the following skill levels to make my point: Novice, Intermediate, Advanced, Seasoned Veteran, and PRO.

Novice players play leagues, or date night and just enjoy being with friends. More than likely will never play in a tourney. They are a huge part of our survival, supporting rooms and their owners. Make up a good part of our leagues.

Intermediate players play leagues, enter tourneys and want to get better.................but complain about Advanced and Seasoned Vets playing in their league, or if a Seasoned Vet is in tourney they dont' enter. They haven't realized yet, playing this competition will only make them better!! Expect Advanced players to be handicapped or banned from league.............etc.....

Advanced players are in the top 10 of their leagues, play as many tourneys as life will allow. They want to match up with Seasoned Vets, and hope to play a Pro in an event to get the experience. This group has won a tourney here and there, and compete at a very high level. In most tourneys they are the guts of the event with an occasional win or top 10 placement. They will play sets for cash, most not for big $$. KINDA "NO MANS" LAND in the pool world!!! Most don't have the time to invest to get that next level because of family and life etc.. and are looked at by the lower levels as Pros or something!!

Seasoned Vets are the guys always winning events..............multiple tourney wins, National Master status in BCA or whatever league there in. They play sets for the cash, cash or win in any event.....always on their game. Some only play pool for a living. You can easily pick them out of the crowd as a top 10 finisher in tourney. Some have ventured into Pro events and done well. Novice and Intermediate players want NOTHING to do with these guys.

Pro player.............well we know who they are.

The above being said the majority of players don't know where they are on the scale, or are not honest about it. WIth no real STANDARD to monitor players it is difficult for players to advance their skill level. To many players playing down, because there is no where for them to go at the higher levels. As they progress I guess they do feel as though they are owed higher pay outs etc......


Mike
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No matter their place in pool, they still need to spend money in pool, and not just EXPECT to get money from it. If it is their job....I get it. But for MOST it is not. The guys who can travel a couple of hours to play in a tourney, and maybe may not be the favorite to win, but will likely cash, won't go, cuz what's the point of breaking even....

Then complain about tourneys not paying enough....makes NO sense.
 
trustyrusty said:
I really don't mind the b!thching and complaining all that much Justin, but usually they are the one's who won't spend a dime unless they KNOW they will double that dime.

Good example from our recent state tourney. Nick Varner is there setting up a booth to sell his wares, and has a "challenge" table. Race to 2 in barbox 8 or 9 ball. $10 to play. After I finish playing, multiple players asked what I won? I said 2 out of 3 games. Of course, that got strange looks, some laughs, and shakes of the head....I'm a dummy for losing $10. Ask just about ANY basketball player if they'd pay $10 to play some one on one with Jordan, or a golfer if he'd pay $10 to play a couple of holes with Tiger. None of the guys that asked me about playing Varner offered up $10 to him....SAD!
Click to expand...

My point exactly! I have played alot of top players (Efren, Joyner, Gomez, Andam, Palmer, etc) even up for $10@game. Knowing fully well that I have absolutely no chance winning in the long run. I know exactly how much I am going to lose, but the knowledge I will gain is well worth it. It's just the possibility to play a pro in my sport for $10 is well worth it. If I challenged Tiger Woods to a round of golf for $50,000 he would probably laugh!
 
A millionaire, a Tea Party-er, and a union member sit down at a table with a dozen cookies. The millionaire takes 11 and turns to the Tea Party-er and says, "Watch out! That union guy is trying to take your last cookie."

Now re-read the above paragraph and exchange the words "millionaire" for BCA, "Tea Party-er" for industry member, and "union member" for American professional pool player.
 
LeagueGuy said:
Fantastic post.


Alhough I think that it is not as bad as everyone here on AZ makes it seem like it is.

The problem here is that the majority of the opinions you get are from the same type of player. Those players who are good enough that they think that they could be pro's if the game had something to offer them. You don't get alot of opinions (a few that I knowbut not many) from people who actually play the game because they love the game and don't want, need or expect to get anything back from it.

I will continue with your comparison of pool to golf. I think if the majority of golf opinions you got was from people who were good enough to play in the Q school or on lower end regional or pro tours, then you would likely get differeing opinions than you would if you talked to they guy who wants to play golf with his buddies on the weekend.

I think what appears "to be wrong with the game" is simply seen that way because most of the opinions come from 1 type of player. If you got equal opinions from more low level league players and even some pool room owners thrown in, you might actually belive that the game is fine.

I personally see nothing wrong with the game.

While it would be nice to have a pro tour (and I still think it can be done), I don't think that there is anything wrong with the game and the way it is currently being run.

I know I enjoy it, and the majority of my friends enjoy it and most of the people I play with seem to enjoy it.

Leagueguy
Click to expand...

I see what you mean about the silent majority, but, and I mean no disrespect at all, (since I used golf as an example) the golfers I'm talking about are scratch or single digit handicappers. The majority of golfers can't break 100. I'm not equating all league pool players to the can't break 100 golfers, but I am talking about a little higher caliber of player.

I play in a regular weekend group of 16 with the highest handicapper being a 6. Some have competed in low level tourneys on up to State and US Amateur or Publinks qualifiers. We compete in just about as many tourneys (including 2 man, and 4 man scrambles, etc.) as we can, and have multiple times finished 1,2, and 3 to sweep local 2 and 4 man events (and even been asked not to participate in one...lol).

What I was trying to point out, is we are willing to spend money for our enjoyment of the competition. After every regular round (which is still a money game BTW), we go to the clubhouse, divvy up winnings, buy pitchers and food etc. Can you imagine walking onto a putting green with clubs in tow, asking everyone there if they wanna play for something, and then walking back to the car, putting the clubs away, and driving off? NO, we still play. :cool:
 
The only thing the "first guy" should be supporting are the bar & pool room owners so that there are actually public venues for us to go shoot pool at. The "first guy" owes nothing to the "second guy" if he so chooses and the "second guy" should not be chasing off the "first guy" in order to help support the pool economy. Pool room owners do not want the "first guy's" buck loading the pockets of the "second guy".

The "second guy" should only be supporting the "second guy".
 
JAM said:
A millionaire, a Tea Party-er, and a union member sit down at a table with a dozen cookies. The millionaire takes 11 and turns to the Tea Party-er and says, "Watch out! That union guy is trying to take your last cookie."

Now re-read the above paragraph and exchange the words "millionaire" for BCA, "Tea Party-er" for industry member, and "union member" for American professional pool player.
Click to expand...

Sorry JAM, that's way above my head (since I'm not a political kinda guy), but I've got one for you.....

Did you hear how much blow Charlie Sheen did last year? Enough to kill 2 and a half men. :p
 
JAM said:
A millionaire, a Tea Party-er, and a union member sit down at a table with a dozen cookies. The millionaire takes 11 and turns to the Tea Party-er and says, "Watch out! That union guy is trying to take your last cookie."

Now re-read the above paragraph and exchange the words "millionaire" for BCA, "Tea Party-er" for industry member, and "union member" for American professional pool player.
Click to expand...


JAM per the norm you are pointing your finger in the correct identifying the problem, but the problem is not fixed IMHO because most Pool Players do not care, or push for change.

Also IMHO pool has too many fish running their little peace of Pool, and want to be the big fish in their little piece of water.

Just look at how many League Organizations there are across the USA, hell in the Phoenix Valley we have like 6 or 7 if I recall, and all are trying to attract the same small group of players to their League.

Most successful Sport are being Governed by ONE ORGANIZATION with One Set of Rules, Professional Golf is a good example. They got the PGA Tour for the Men, Senior Tour for the Older Golfer, and the LPGA for the Lady Golfer, and most armature Golf is played under PGA Rules. PGA Handicaps.

When was the last time a Pro Golfer got a Rubber Check, or No Pay after winning an event run by the PGA?
 
The problem that pool has been facing comes down to a vicious circle. On the one hand, pool is in desperate need of media exposure, while on the other hand, in order for it to become interesting enough (since it lacks exclusiveness golf enjoys) there needs to be a lot of money involved (6 figures), which in turn is not feasible for that would require investors who at present have little to gain for the lack of the said media exposure. Euro tour winner gets a mere 5,000$ prize... And these guys, the pros, have to make a living out of that....?:confused:
 
CocoboloCowboy said:
JAM per the norm you are pointing your finger in the correct identifying the problem, but the problem is not fixed IMHO because most Pool Players do not care, or push for change.

Also IMHO pool has too many fish running their little peace of Pool, and want to be the big fish in their little piece of water.

Just look at how many League Organizations there are across the USA, hell in the Phoenix Valley we have like 6 or 7 if I recall, and all are trying to attract the same small group of players to their League.

Most successful Sport are being Governed by ONE ORGANIZATION with One Set of Rules, Professional Golf is a good example. They got the PGA Tour for the Men, Senior Tour for the Older Golfer, and the LPGA for the Lady Golfer, and most armature Golf is played under PGA Rules. PGA Handicaps.

When was the last time a Pro Golfer got a Rubber Check, or No Pay after winning an event run by the PGA?
Click to expand...

The rules are set forth by the USGA in the US (R&A most everywhere else), and the PGA follows them.

As far as the rubber check goes - check out this clip, watch the whole thing, but at 1:36 - that check prolly didn't cash! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXK6C1Us-As

:p
 
Pool has an *IMAGE* problem first and foremost.

Take a poll and ask people to describe a "golfer".

Take a poll and ask people to describe a "pool player".

Compare.

It doesn't matter if the stereotypes are true or not, but at the end of the day, Golf is a sport for the affluent. The almost affluent aspire to it, they want to be it. What average joe who golfs doesn't dream of beating the CEO by 10 strokes at the annual company tournament, getting noticed, and finally getting that corner office?

When I carry my cue into work I get all kinds of looks. The other day I had an interaction like this:

Lady - looking slightly concerned: "whats that?"
Me: "pool cue"
Lady - now looking slightly disgusted "I thought it was a sword"
Lady walks away.

She actually looked *MORE* disturbed when I said pool cue than when she thought I was toting a sword through the office and about to go Ninja on the accounting department.

Figure out how to change the perception of a pool player from some slimeball looking to steal everyones $$ to upper-middle-class-hero and you will "fix" pool. Otherwise, good luck getting a company that doesnt sell booze or pool products to pony up the big sponsership $$. JO might be pools "great white hope".
 
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