Inside English vs Outside English

[philly]

I think 90% of pool players are more comfortable using outside English.
For me, here is a rule I try to follow. If the cue ball is more than 4/5ft from the object ball, I try not to use very much English at all. It does no good to get that perfect shape if the English makes you miss the shot.
Ok, lets say the cue ball is only 3ft from the object ball. You know where you want to get for perfect shape on your next shot.....which English gets you there easier?
Other factors on which English you use may be the layout of the table, are other balls in the way of using outside or inside English? If so, you need to adjust and use what you need.
To play this game at a high level, you need to have both sets of English in your arsenal. This will separate the players from the bangers.

I don't think distance has anything to do with the use of english at all. I mean you still have to get the correct shape on your next ball regardless of distance. If you don't feel you can get shape because use of english will cause a problem then simply play safe. Makes it awful difficult getting through a rack though.

 

[Michael Andros]

I was taught how to shoot using center cue ball only. While practicing my coach wouldn't allow me to use english. In matches, sure; but not during practice sessions. Over time the english I elected to use during matches slowly diminished. Only after a year or so did my coach start working on my english during practice.

Theory being; if you can judge natural angles and momentum; you'll 1) not have to use as much English 2) Not have to use English as frequently and 3) begin deferring away from English in situations where it's simply not required.

This all being said, I still use English on occasion but not nearly as frequently as I had been previously. My cue ball control has improved quite quickly. I use whatever English is going to get me on the OB with the least amount of CB travel. I think that's how it is supposed to be.

Simplify the table.

Precisely why I said ideally, you would NEVER use english. Only speed, angle and only one of the three types of stroke, being the punch stroke, so you're literally bunting whitey on every shot. Of course, again, that is the IDEAL. But it's certainly worth working toward. In a word, as you said, "simplicity".

 

[Low500]

Sorry to disagree, but I'm the room owner and operator, I am 61, and I don't gamble with our regulars unless they are on my same skill level, and even then it's just cheap sets with players that I know can afford it. Your way of thinking is an extremely selfish viewpoint, particularly if it pertains to room proprietors like myself. I certainly hope your view is not shared by most of the regular posters here.
I feel that the better our regular players can play, the more pleasure they'll get out of this game, the longer they'll keep playing (each session and over the years to come), and thus the more time they'll spend here. I wish when I was learning this game that I had better players to learn from, share their knowledge, and offer suggestions, that would have sped up my learning process to become a better player.

Well, that being said, yes...I am a very selfish person. (just like everyone else in this world, only I'm one who will admit it. And even then, it's all a matter of degrees).
Since you own the poolroom, you run it as you see fit and that is not my business to comment on. You're cultivating customers and I would do exactly the same thing as you're doing....keep it up!
When I started out shooting pool there were PLENTY of better players to "help me along".......and at the customary sucker rates too. A smug self satisfied unlicked cub like me was too good of a thing to pass up.
It's a tough world but life goes on.
Good for you on having a successful pool room...they're rare these days.
Cheers, Happy Days, and all that rot.......
:thumbup:

 

[MattPoland]

I don't think distance has anything to do with the use of english at all. I mean you still have to get the correct shape on your next ball regardless of distance. If you don't feel you can get shape because use of english will cause a problem then simply play safe. Makes it awful difficult getting through a rack though.

It matters only in that the minor amount of masse (swerve) from using side spin with a cue that is likely not perfectly level will affect the shot more at greater distances. It’s something that can potentially go without saying since most here should understand that by now. But it also goes with saying because it’s intellectually satisfying to point it out for posterity sake.

Another example might be stunning the ball along the tangent line. That’s real easy close up and you can control how far along the line the ball travels. You can stun over just an inch if you want. Stunning over greater distances sometimes means executing a drag shot. Those tend to need to be hit harder so the drag doesn’t wear off too soon and turn into follow. That in turn makes it harder to hold the ball. There’s a minimum distance it wants to travel along the tangent. Sure, you can probably hold it with the balance of speed and low english but that is a more touchy stroke. Holding a full table stun to just an inch along the tangent line may not be an option.


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[Patrick Johnson]

I think you forgot to add "swerve" in to your equation for effects of outside and inside english, in regards to factors you need to consider in the aiming process, depending on how elevated your cue is through the stroke on any given shot.

I didn't think we were talking about how to aim with side spin, but you're absolutely right that swerve is a critical consideration - in fact, it's what makes squirt so hard to master. It's so important that we invented a word for it: squerve.

Do you think it has anything to do with the difference in difficulty between inside and outside spin?

pj
chgo

 

[ChrisinNC]

I didn't think we were talking about how to aim with side spin, but you're absolutely right that swerve is a critical consideration - in fact, it's what makes squirt so hard to master. It's so important that we invented a word for it: squerve.

Do you think it has anything to do with the difference in difficulty between inside and outside spin?

pj
chgo

That's a good question, but generally I just think when players first start experimenting with english, it is almost always outside english, so that is what they become far more comfortable using as opposed to inside, even after they've added inside english to their arsenal.

For me, I think when I'm using inside english it's generally a high inside stroke, in which I think I'm more likely to keep the cue more level with the table surface through the stroke - thus less swerve. By comparison, I tend to use outside english more with draw, in which at least for me there is a tendency to elevate the butt of the cue a little more throughout the stroke, adding more swerve to the aiming equation. This could be one reason why I seem to be more comfortable with inside spin, as there is less swerve to calculate in to the aiming process.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

That's a good question, but generally I just think when players first start experimenting with english, it is almost always outside english, so that is what they become far more comfortable using as opposed to inside, even after they've added inside english to their arsenal.

For me, I think when I'm using inside english it's generally a high inside stroke, in which I think I'm more likely to keep the cue more level with the table surface through the stroke - thus less swerve. By comparison, I tend to use outside english more with draw, in which at least for me there is a tendency to elevate the butt of the cue a little more throughout the stroke, adding more swerve to the aiming equation. This could be one reason why I seem to be more comfortable with inside spin, as there is less swerve to calculate in to the aiming process.

Good points. High/inside and low/outside are natural pairs (because they tend to enhance CB speed for position) - and they tend to produce different amounts of swerve. So aiming them tends to be different for that reason too.

pj <- as if we needed another reason
chgo

 

[Dan Harriman]

Insight

I may have some insight, many good responses here. The smaller the table the more spin on white is pertinent to running pool balls. 85 or 90 percent of shots that require opening up tangent will require inside spin - as this allows a thinner hit - helping to free up or open tangent line. Holding up tangent = outside most of the time. It takes a great instructor to set up and explain when the other ten % exception presents it's self.

When learning to pocket balls and or play position it's better to learn center ball, this is the main reason why the small table ( tavern table) is the wrong table to learn how to play position from. When learnin on bar box players will have to spin whitey frequently as there is much congestion.

 

[jrctherake]

I've noticed a number of our players in our poolroom, even some of the better ones, are just not nearly as comfortable using inside english for positioning as they are outside english. As I recall, many years ago, when first learning pool on my own which I assume is/was similar for most players, when I first started experimenting using english/spin on the CB it was outside english that I felt most comfortable with. I can say that I got to where even when I didn't need it for positioning, on angled cut shots I fell in to the habit of feeling more confident in my shotmaking when using some outside english.

It wasn't until after a number of years of playing that I really started feeling comfortable experimenting with inside english, and all the options it can provide in terms in offering additional positioning paths to get the CB where you need it for your next shot. After many years of playing, I am now to the point where I'd say if I have an option of positioning paths for the CB to take to get to an area on the table needed for the next ball, I will often choose the high inside english positioning route and going 2-3 rails for shape as opposed to the low outside english positioning route which may entail less rails for the CB to travel. This is puzzling to some of the younger players here when I'm playing with them that I would choose that option. For me, I just feel like the speed control is much more predictable when using the high inside english option, even it requires the CB to travel a further distance and more rails to get to the desired area for the next shot.

Just curious as to other players here in your learning process as a pool player, feeling comfortable using various spins, and whether or not you now prefer either outside or inside english, if you have an option in CB positioning routes? I stress to our younger players in here, that to become a complete player, you have to get to where you feel comfortable using all kinds of english, at any speed, for shotmaking and for positioning.

I learned early on to not force a screw driver to work when a larger or smaller driver is needed.

If I was not comfortable with inside, I would do nothing but inside spin drills until they felt natural.

Same with outside spin, top or bottom English.

To me, none of them are my "always use" anything. I try to use what is needed on every shot.

Rake

 

[Johnny Rosato]

Why tell them anything at all?
All you're doing is helping them develop into better players who will end up taking your money away from you.
Just keep on robbing them.....that's exactly what they intend to do to you if they can.
This is ONLY my opinion of poolrooms...it is not meant to start a fight here, change anyone's thinking, or cause trouble.
It's my OPINION only...so please don't 'batter me'.

I used to have a friend who thought like you concerning bass fishing and helping others learn the sport. He wasn't gonna help anyone anywhere, including children that were starting out. Like I said, he's a used to be friend, I wanted nothing to do with him when I saw his attitude on this. Not gonna argue with you or anyone else on this matter and I'm not asking a question, so no need to reply. This is just MY OPINION !!!

 

[philly]

It matters only in that the minor amount of masse (swerve) from using side spin with a cue that is likely not perfectly level will affect the shot more at greater distances. It’s something that can potentially go without saying since most here should understand that by now. But it also goes with saying because it’s intellectually satisfying to point it out for posterity sake.

Another example might be stunning the ball along the tangent line. That’s real easy close up and you can control how far along the line the ball travels. You can stun over just an inch if you want. Stunning over greater distances sometimes means executing a drag shot. Those tend to need to be hit harder so the drag doesn’t wear off too soon and turn into follow. That in turn makes it harder to hold the ball. There’s a minimum distance it wants to travel along the tangent. Sure, you can probably hold it with the balance of speed and low english but that is a more touchy stroke. Holding a full table stun to just an inch along the tangent line may not be an option.


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Wow. Personally if I put that much thought into every shot I would forget how to stroke the cue. I'm a feel player. Hit a million balls guy. I survey the situation and use the english I feel is necessary to get shape regardless of distance. If I feel I cannot achieve the goal of my shot, I play a safety.

If I have a full length table shot and I have to use hard draw then that's what I do. if force follow using high left or high right is required then that's what I do.

 

[MattPoland]

Wow. Personally if I put that much thought into every shot I would forget how to stroke the cue. I'm a feel player. Hit a million balls guy. I survey the situation and use the english I feel is necessary to get shape regardless of distance. If I feel I cannot achieve the goal of my shot, I play a safety.



If I have a full length table shot and I have to use hard draw then that's what I do. if force follow using high left or high right is required then that's what I do.

I’m similar. I don’t try to calculate all that and adjust for it on every shot. It’s good to know about the physics of pool but my brain usually feeds me this information on a shot subliminally in terms of instinctively knowing what CB paths are feasible and which are not. It also feeds me which shots are harder to execute. The reason why behind all that is driven by the awareness of those technical details, but I’m not scrutinizing those details in my shot planning.


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[philly]

I’m similar. I don’t try to calculate all that and adjust for it on every shot. It’s good to know about the physics of pool but my brain usually feeds me this information on a shot subliminally in terms of instinctively knowing what CB paths are feasible and which are not. It also feeds me which shots are harder to execute. The reason why behind all that is driven by the awareness of those technical details, but I’m not scrutinizing those details in my shot planning.


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Agreed. When you've hit enough balls I believe you stop consciously thinking about swerve, deflection, etc. It's all done subconsciously.

 

[ChrisinNC]

Agreed. When you've hit enough balls I believe you stop consciously thinking about swerve, deflection, etc. It's all done subconsciously.

Agreed, but my problem is I've been experimenting with switching shafts, with of course, different amounts of deflection in how they each shaft plays, and on top of that my playing/practice time is limited to 6-8 hours a week. Now that I've found the shaft I'm committed to sticking with, it will take a bit of time for me to lock in on adjusting my subconscious brain to how much to adjust my aiming when applying various spins on shots.

 

[philly]

Agreed, but my problem is I've been experimenting with switching shafts, with of course, different amounts of deflection in how they each shaft plays, and on top of that my playing/practice time is limited to 6-8 hours a week. Now that I've found the shaft I'm committed to sticking with, it will take a bit of time for me to lock in on adjusting my subconscious brain to how much to adjust my aiming when applying various spins on shots.

Been there with the shaft and tip thingy. I have finally decided that old school is the proper way to go and so much in the pool world is promotion. I am back with plain hard maple shafts and hard pressed non layered Triangle tips.

Not to switch the subject and go off on a tangent but I will buy a Revo shaft when they are $700. Then I will know they are really good. LOL.

There is no substitute for hitting a million balls. A 700 Fargo can pull a house cue off the wall and beat most anybody in the room.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Wow. Personally if I put that much thought into every shot I would forget how to stroke the cue.

I guess it's a good thing, then, that you don't play while talking about pool online. Talking about it here doesn't mean thinking about it while playing - it might mean thinking about it while practicing and learning it...

pj
chgo

 

[Michael Andros]

There is no substitute for hitting a million balls.

A frickin' men.

 

[alstl]

Why do they refer to it as English?

 

[Michael Andros]

Why do they refer to it as English?

"The expression comes from English snooker, a pool game where one of the main strategies is to block an opponent from having a straight line shot at a ball he must hit.
To do this, the shooter will create a spin on his shot to circumvent the obstruction.
This spin is called “putting English on it.”


Or, so says one of 34,802,667,109 sites on the internet! :grin:

 

[philly]

I guess it's a good thing, then, that you don't play while talking about pool online. Talking about it here doesn't mean thinking about it while playing - it might mean thinking about it while practicing and learning it...

pj
chgo

Patrick, only you can decipher yourself so enjoy yourself.