Inside English vs Outside English

[jrctherake]

Agreed. When you've hit enough balls I believe you stop consciously thinking about swerve, deflection, etc. It's all done subconsciously.

I can't agree more. That is why I like equal offense and straight pool so much. I get to shoot a larger number of shots as well as, a larger variety in a given timeframe.

To me, it's a no brainer.

Rake

 

[goettlicher]

Maybe I missed the point but shouldn't you use the english that will get you proper shape whether it be inside or outside. I do agree with you that most players are more comfortable using outside (running) english but that doesn't mean it is the correct english.

Wow! Not all "outside" english is running english.

randyg

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Maybe I missed the point but shouldn't you use the english that will get you proper shape whether it be inside or outside. I do agree with you that most players are more comfortable using outside (running) english but that doesn't mean it is the correct english.

Wow! Not all "outside" english is running english.

randyg

If you think of those definitions the same way whether talking about CB/rail interaction or CB/OB interaction, then:

outside = spin that tends to add speed
inside = spin that tends to decrease speed

...and you can have multiple instances on the same shot.

I don't know if that's what philly means, but for me that's the simplest, most consistent and least confusing way to think about it.

It's one of those perennial debates.

pj
chgo

 

[HawaiianEye]

If you want to see the effects of inside, watch CJ Wiley play.

 

[philly]

If you think of those definitions the same way whether talking about CB/rail interaction or CB/OB interaction, then:

outside = spin that tends to add speed
inside = spin that tends to decrease speed

...and you can have multiple instances on the same shot.

I don't know if that's what philly means, but for me that's the simplest, most consistent and least confusing way to think about it.

It's one of those perennial debates.

pj
chgo

That is what I meant by outside "running english" adding speed, especially with high right or left and is used aggressively in 3 cushion.

 

[sixpack]

I think when players start out the main aiming error they make is not cutting the ball enough. Outside english throws the ball in a little and low outside causes a little swerve too which helps them pocket balls. This becomes a crutch and some shots they can only make with outside. For me it was back cuts to the corner. I could make them all day long with low outside but couldn't make them with no english to save my life. It took a long time to get that sorted out and I haven't quite yet.

I have really focused on inside english for a while now though and have a system for aiming them that is rock solid so now I love using inside english. And outside english. And no english. Heck, I just love whenever I have a chance to play.

 

[MattPoland]

I think when players start out the main aiming error they make is not cutting the ball enough. Outside english throws the ball in a little and low outside causes a little swerve too which helps them pocket balls. This becomes a crutch and some shots they can only make with outside. For me it was back cuts to the corner. I could make them all day long with low outside but couldn't make them with no english to save my life. It took a long time to get that sorted out and I haven't quite yet.

I have really focused on inside english for a while now though and have a system for aiming them that is rock solid so now I love using inside english. And outside english. And no english. Heck, I just love whenever I have a chance to play.

Love your enthusiasm! That was me when I started. I watched a lot of matches as a young kid at tournaments and I asked a lot of questions about cueball control. I learned a lot about object ball throw and cueball spin off the rail. So I put way too much english on the ball for every shot for decades. I definitely undercut a lot. Mostly because I’d align the center of the cueball to the contact point instead of doing whatever it takes to align contact points between both balls. I recall using helper english excessively and I think you’re right in that it turned into a crutch.


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[grindz]

Practicing 15 ball 'rotation'

Will force anyone to use it all....and if you don't
Will torture you until you do.....

That said..I feel like learning and using tangent lines
Has been at least as important as using either side...

Td

 

[ceebee]

After I learned the adjustment for inside English, a new world opened up for me. With Inside English, The HALT has to taken into consideration, but you still know the trajectory of the cue ball's path. When the secret is learned, a new way of playing is born...

 

[Dan Harriman]

Yep

If you think of those definitions the same way whether talking about CB/rail interaction or CB/OB interaction, then:

outside = spin that tends to add speed
inside = spin that tends to decrease speed

...and you can have multiple instances on the same shot.

I don't know if that's what philly means, but for me that's the simplest, most consistent and least confusing way to think about it.

It's one of those perennial debates.

pj
chgo

Yep, this is well articulated and I agree 100%.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Practicing 15 ball 'rotation'

Will force anyone to use it all.

That's exactly why I do.

pj
chgo

 

[ChrisinNC]

If you think of those definitions the same way whether talking about CB/rail interaction or CB/OB interaction, then:

outside = spin that tends to add speed
inside = spin that tends to decrease speed

...and you can have multiple instances on the same shot.

I don't know if that's what philly means, but for me that's the simplest, most consistent and least confusing way to think about it.

It's one of those perennial debates.

pj
chgo

I don't agree that statement that inside always decreases speed when the CB hits the rail, or outside always increases speed when the CB hits the rail. There are many shots in which you use inside english to get the CB to take off around 2-3 rails. Also there are some shots in which outside english is used to kill the CB off the rail. It all depends on the angle of the shot and the angle the CB is coming in to the rail at.

I do agree (only as as a generality) that inside is more often used to change the CB angle off the rail and kill the CB speed, and outside english (only when it is running english) will increase the CB off the rail.

For clarification / definition purposes - Inside refers to applying english on the same side of the CB as the direction you are cutting the OB in the pocket. Outside refers to applying spin on the opposite side of the CB to the direction you are cutting the OB in to the pocket.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I don't agree that statement that inside always decreases speed when the CB hits the rail, or outside always increases speed when the CB hits the rail. There are many shots in which you use inside english to get the CB to take off around 2-3 rails. Also there are some shots in which outside english is used to kill the CB off the rail. It all depends on the angle of the shot and the angle the CB is coming in to the rail at.

I do agree (only as as a generality) that inside is more often used to change the CB angle off the rail and kill the CB speed, and outside english (only when it is running english) will increase the CB off the rail.

For clarification / definition purposes - Inside refers to applying english on the same side of the CB as the direction you are cutting the OB in the pocket. Outside refers to applying spin on the opposite side of the CB to the direction you are cutting the OB in to the pocket.

You’re using inside/outside only to describe the CB’s action against the OB. I use inside/outside to also describe the CB’s action against the rail (as I said in my first sentence). My way they always mean the same thing - your way they don’t. I don’t think there’s broad agreement on which way is “correct”.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

You’re using inside/outside only to describe the CB’s action against the OB. I use inside/outside to also describe the CB’s action against the rail (as I said in my first sentence). My way they always mean the same thing - your way they don’t. I don’t think there’s broad agreement on which way is “correct”.

Here are some illustrations and definitions from my english terminology resource page and online pool glossary that I think represent the "standard" and "most used" definitions:

​

inside english (IE): sidespin created by hitting the cue ball on the side towards the direction of the shot (i.e. on the “inside” of the cue ball). For example, when the cue ball strikes an object ball on the left side, creating a cut shot to the right, right sidespin would be called “inside english.”

outside english (OE): sidespin created by hitting the cue ball on the side away from the direction of the shot (i.e. on the “outside” of the cue ball). For example, when the cue ball strikes an object ball on the left side, creating a cut shot to the right, left sidespin would be called “outside english.”

reverse english: sidespin where the cue ball slows and has a smaller rebound angle after hitting a rail (i.e., the opposite of “natural” or “running” english). The spin is in the direction opposite from the “rolling” direction along the rail during contact.

running english (AKA “natural english”): sidespin that causes the cue ball to speed up after bouncing off a rail, also resulting in a wider (longer) rebound angle. The spin is in the direction that results in “rolling” along the rail during contact.

Regards,
Dave

 

[MattPoland]

You’re using inside/outside only to describe the CB’s action against the OB. I use inside/outside to also describe the CB’s action against the rail (as I said in my first sentence). My way they always mean the same thing - your way they don’t. I don’t think there’s broad agreement on which way is “correct”.



pj

chgo

I was pretty confident right english on a right cut will always be inside english and left english on a left cut will always be inside english. And as he said, it would only be running english depending on the angle coming into the rail. Take a shallow left cut near a rail as an example. Low right (low outside) would be running english. High left (high inside) would be running english. That’s a shot where high vs. low changes whether the english is running. I don’t think it makes sense to say high vs. low changes whether english is inside.

It’s so easy to talk about it in reference to looking at a shot. It’s tricky when talking about in reference to words describing a shot.

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[philly]

I was pretty confident right english on a right cut will always be inside english and left english on a left cut will always be inside english. And as he said, it would only be running english depending on the angle coming into the rail. Take a shallow left cut near a rail as an example. Low right (low outside) would be running english. High left (high inside) would be running english. That’s a shot where high vs. low changes whether the english is running. I don’t think it makes sense to say high vs. low changes whether english is inside.

It’s so easy to talk about it in reference to looking at a shot. It’s tricky when talking about in reference to words describing a shot.

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Relax. Patrick will argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin and what their names are. Two words: aiming forum, if you catch my drift, so a grain of salt is necessary.

 

[MattPoland]

Relax. Patrick will argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin and what their names are. Two words: aiming forum, if you catch my drift, so a grain of salt is necessary.

I’m chill as a breeze.

He likes to dissect, analyze, and discuss. Sometimes his approach to that irks people and flame wars emerge. I just happen to also get invigorated by dissecting, analyzing and discussing. So I love jumping into these things and comparing notes.

I just happen to have a knack for diffusing tension and steering the conversation constructively even if the person I’m engaging happens to disagree or have strong emotions about the topic, people, or tone thus far. I don’t see PJ and me ever really bumping heads.


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[ChrisinNC]

You’re using inside/outside only to describe the CB’s action against the OB. I use inside/outside to also describe the CB’s action against the rail (as I said in my first sentence). My way they always mean the same thing - your way they don’t. I don’t think there’s broad agreement on which way is “correct”.

pj
chgo

In all due respect, I believe Dr. Dave's clear analysis confirmed what I stated - inside and outside english refer to to the spin you put on the CB relative to the angle of the cut you are playing. This is completely independent of describing running english and reverse english, which are terms used to describe what spin is on the CB as it contacts a rail.

 

[garczar]

In all due respect, I believe Dr. Dave's clear analysis confirmed what I stated - inside and outside english refer to to the spin you put on the CB relative to the angle of the cut you are playing. This is completely independent of describing running english and reverse english, which are terms used to describe what spin is on the CB as it contacts a rail.

Exactly. Inside can be running. Say you've got a ball frozen to side rail and you want to go 2-3rails forward. You pocket the ball with inside and run it forward with inside spin. Inside/outside simply refers to which side of cue-ball is struck relative to the desired pocket.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... inside and outside english refer to to the spin you put on the CB relative to the angle of the cut you are playing. This is completely independent of describing running english and reverse english, which are terms used to describe what spin is on the CB as it contacts a rail.

I think that is the best way to describe what is going on. Inside/outside for the object ball rub and running/reverse for the cushion.

In the October 2011 Billiards Digest I asked readers to describe shots with all the possible combinations of spin relative to the ball and cushion along with possible positions where each particular combination of spin was best. The ball side spins were inside/outside/center, plus follow/draw/stun and for the cushion it was running/reverse. (I suppose neutral would have been a third cushion possibility.) No one submitted a list in spite of the offer of a prize.