Inspired thoughts by Kelly's 3 wing cutter thread....

BarenbruggeCues

Unregistered User
Silver Member
Call me crazy 🤪 but I've always had my best luck with wing cutters just holding in my hand and sharpening on a wheel this way. I should do a youtubers vid cause I believe some think I'm just pulling the wool. I've had them professionally ground and still get better cut results doing it my hillbilly way. I even sharpen them the "wrong way" off the top of the carbide and not the face so every time I go to the wheel the cutter is actually getting smaller in diameter and out of round per the height of all 3 wings. Doesn't seem to matter if one, two or all three wings are actually cutting, I get the same baby butt smooth cut either way.
I believe not only the correct type of cutter being used (thinnest one available) but the absolute correct set up is just as important as having the sharpest cutter available. If any 3 of these things are amiss you'll get not only spiraling, chatter cut, out of round cut because of tool push off and possibly a combination of all of the above in your cuts.
Cutting a smooth, tapered to approx a half inch in dia, 30 inch long cut that is not only cut round but needs very minimal sanding can be one of the most challenging in the entire building process.......IMO. The key is "minimal sanding." The more you sand the more out of round a shaft will become and the more chance you have a fish out water flopping around or an egg shaped cylinder when you roll it on a flat surface.
Why can this happen? Ask any professional woodworker and if they know anything about sanding wood they'll all tell you that end grain is much harder to sand than face grain. As you spin your shaft you are sanding 2 places of face grain and 2 faces of end grain. Common knowledge will tell you the 2 face grain surfaces are going to disappear quicker than the 2 end grain surfaces. Minimal sanding on shafts at any point in its life time is an absolute must to keep it as round as it should be. You can not sand an out of round shaft back to round nor can you sand a warped shaft back to straight.
Proof reading my post I almost posted this in Kelly's 3 wing cutter thread and I thought right before hitting the post button:unsure: I shouldn't hijack his thread (cause that's the kind, gentle type of person I am :rolleyes:) but when 3 wing cutters come up so many thoughts start going thru my head 🤯.
 

Sheldon

dontneednostinkintitle
Silver Member
Great post, this is important stuff if you want quality. If you sand more than a couple thousandths you're doing it wrong, in my opinion.
I often sharpen my 3 wings by hand, but I do try to keep the cutters concentric. I leave them in the holder, and chuck them up in the lathe then dial indicate the tips. I have them professionally done occasionally, but it's pretty expensive. Mostly I just have my 50 tooth saw blade done by the pros. Cuts like butter every time!
 

JC

Coos Cues
Gold Member
I use three wing carbide cutters that are so cheap you almost can't afford to sharpen them.
Proof reading my post I almost posted this in Kelly's 3 wing cutter thread and I thought right before hitting the post button:unsure: I shouldn't hijack his thread (cause that's the kind, gentle type of person I am :rolleyes:) but when 3 wing cutters come up so many thoughts start going thru my head 🤯.
JC-realizing he has considerably less couth than Dave. :cry:
 

BarenbruggeCues

Unregistered User
Silver Member
I believe multi toothed cutters cut better if all of the teeth are actually cutting their share.
One thing I would point out is I couldn't agree more.
However, taking into consideration my setup for this op I'd basically be chasing the dragon.
If I had the same setup I use for cutting my point pockets I would spend the extra time in the precision dept with the arbor and cutters like I do for that. The difference is I use a Bosch colt router for my taper machine and I use a Precise grind spindle for cutting point pockets. Just never upgraded on the taper machine.
With the point pocket cutter I send the cutters out to my grind guy still in the new bought packages for a specific type of grind. The factory tolerances on brand name cutters are horrible.
The reason I say chasing a dragon is with the Colt I have too many runout variables to make a consistent difference with a precision ground cutter.
The main thing is the they just don't have a very precise collet setup and you can get a different reading every time you open and close the collet.
I did try to minimize collet problems by making my own arbor and grinding it to except the wing cutter with the router running and then never opening the collet. Again thought I would have the problem minimized and start having cuts on shafts that would shine like a new bought car.
The problem with that theory is my router will eventually need new bearings and when they go poop I don't want to take the time to replace them immediately but instead just swap out routers and keep cutting. Well guess what.....when I do this I take my precision ground arbor out the collet it was ground in and put it in a different collet setup. Not running precise any more because Bosch colt routers are cheap for a reason.
Then I started looking at the actual wing cutters. The factory tolerances on these are the same or sometimes worse than the straight flute cutters I use for cutting my point pockets. The jobs these are designed to do originally are not the same precision jobs we want to use them for.
Then I started looking more into my actual overall setup and alignment of everything on the machine and not just what I thought was a cutter and cutter powered problem. It can be a deep rabbit hole chasing the dragon.
 

Ssonerai

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Nice over-view of the variables and stack tolerances starting with bearings in a spindle and working outward to the tool tip. And the fact that with a cheap spindle, none is fully controllable after the tool is changed. Sometimes not even when it is in use.

There's equipment here to make and sharpen cutters starting with making the tool bodies and silvering on the tips, & it gets used. Stellite or carbide tips. Stellite would probably be better for most woodworkers than carbide since it can intrinsically get sharper. Modern micro-grain carbides are catching up in that area, but then the edge quality is still iffy depending on sharpening method, grit, and post grind lapping, if any. Wood working tools degrade (get dull) from heat accelerated chemical erosion, more so than from simple abrasion as most people imagine. Stellite is more resistant to that factor in wood, and yet can actually be sharpened with normal AlO wheels (white, aluminum oxide grinding wheels) or hand stones.

I posted on Kelly's post my preference for sharpening & evening up carbide wing cutter tips in place is a simple diamond hand hone. (with a little mineral oil) It is probably a medium grit, fairly large, dense grit hone given to me by my (late) FIL, so don't know source, but sometimes use others, sometimes shop made diamond hones, and sometime use a loose diamond wheel around 220 - 400 grit.

Dave, if you are serious about the green wheel, you really ought to get a diamond. They are so cheap now days. Green grit does not actually sharpen carbide, it erodes the binder between the grains so they fall out. Diamond wheels last forever with that type of hand sharpening if occasionally dressed with a cleaning stick. Although many more wheels accumulated here in various sizes/shapes, the first one i ever bought, probably close to 40 years ago. is still in use.

PS, still got a couple old green face wheels, too. Sometimes they get used for roughing cast iron or something.

PPS: You guys that grind carbide, whatever method, it is more pernicious and dangerous than most of the exotic wood people worry about. Read about the dust, (and the mud, if coolant is used to keep the dust out of the air). Really bad stuff. If you can smell that fresh carrot smell, it is already hurting you.

smt
 

cueman

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Green wheel spinning....cutter held in hand.
;)
I knew you were a very talented man, but if you can grind multi wing cutters so every tooth is the same depth without any kind of jig you are even more talented than I thought.
 
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JC

Coos Cues
Gold Member
I knew you we a very talented man, but if you can grind muli wing cutters so every tooth is the same depth without any kind of jig you are even more talented than I thought.
I don't believe he claimed they were all the same depth. He said it doesn't matter to him if only one cutter is doing all the work. He sharpens all three to make sure which ever one is proud gets sharpened. My feelings exactly only I use carbide three wing cutters that are so cheap you almost can't afford to sharpen them. When the one doing the work gets dull you just reduce it slightly and let the next longest one spring into action. When all three are done you just install a new one. This is about a year or so down the road and they are about six bucks.
 

JoeyInCali

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
What we need a threaded wing cutter . Like the Whiteside 6801 but 1 7/8 OD and only 3/32 thick. That way you can sharpen them using the same arbor easily .
 

JoeyInCali

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Dave, if you are serious about the green wheel, you really ought to get a diamond. They are so cheap now days. Green grit does not actually sharpen carbide, it erodes the binder between the grains so they fall out. Diamond wheels last forever with that type of hand sharpening if occasionally dressed with a cleaning stick. Although many more wheels accumulated here in various sizes/shapes, the first one i ever bought, probably close to 40 years ago. is still in use.

PS, still got a couple old green face wheels, too. Sometimes they get used for roughing cast iron or something.

PPS: You guys that grind carbide, whatever method, it is more pernicious and dangerous than most of the exotic wood people worry about. Read about the dust, (and the mud, if coolant is used to keep the dust out of the air). Really bad stuff. If you can smell that fresh carrot smell, it is already hurting you.

smt
How cheap?
 

Ssonerai

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Joey commented:
you really ought to get a diamond.

How cheap?

Think i've seen 2 carat single stones for under $25 within the past year. Norton branded single 2 carat stones are around $100 depending.. There's at least one vendor on ebay claiming single stone 5 carat for $69.99 on the end of stick, but it looks small to my eye. Norton is reliable.

smt
 
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BarenbruggeCues

Unregistered User
Silver Member
you really ought to get a diamond.
That's what she said! :LOL: Maybe one day....maybe one day.
It's one of those things that happen in the shop that I've done for so many years...quick, easy solution to a problem I'm having and keep moving.

Been wanting to upgrade my whole turning system. The relic I use for tapering has a lot of memories. It was my first lathe investment way back when all my madness started and has a little sentimental value. One of those finds that you're not looking for and just happen to stumble up on while involved in another project. For pocket change it was hard to pass up. The guy even dropped it off at the house on his way home that eve. Maybe one day.
if you can grind muli wing cutters so every tooth is the same depth without any kind of jig you are even more talented than I thought.
The actual quote was......
Doesn't seem to matter if one, two or all three wings are actually cutting, I get the same baby butt smooth cut either way.
It's all just a state of mind. If you can think it...you can do it! (I'm sure I'm quoting someone much older than me) Chris, I never said I had such talent. If I grind all 3 maybe 1 or 2 or if I get real lucky all 3 may hit. But if I get a edge on even only one I really can't tell a visual difference between the final outcome. Put an edge on.....view under magnification....shave the top side of my thumb nail to check for sharpness....reinstall.... make depth adjustments....continue cutting.

Oh... Had I read a little further I'd have just let JC explain it for me> ;)

What we need a threaded wing cutter . Like the Whiteside 6801 but 1 7/8 OD and only 3/32 thick.
I like Whiteside bits and use their slot cutters. They used to be cheaper :unsure: but then again I only paid 11.9 cents per gallon of gas at one point in my life also. 🤣
 

JoeyInCali

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Joey commented:




Think i've seen 2 carat single stones for under $25 within the past year. Norton branded single 2 carat stones are around $100 depending.. There's at least one vendor on ebay claiming single stone 5 carat for $69.99 on the end of stick, but it looks small to my eye. Norton is reliable.

smt
Can't find any video how they are used to sharpen slot cutters .
Joey commented:




Think i've seen 2 carat single stones for under $25 within the past year. Norton branded single 2 carat stones are around $100 depending.. There's at least one vendor on ebay claiming single stone 5 carat for $69.99 on the end of stick, but it looks small to my eye. Norton is reliable.

smt
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Value-Coll...sser-7-16-Shan/282911821303?campid=5335988529 Like that ? Sorry, absolutely clueless how that's even used .
 

Ssonerai

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Joey in observing your comments, you often have an interesting or ironic way with words.
Said with some appreciation, too.
I assumed you were asking straight faced about my typo, for getting a diamond, singular.
So i answered it with a straight face as well.
A diamond dresser for conventional grinding wheels is a great source of cheap relatively large single diamonds. Just don't tell the girl where you bought it. When she looked at it, she'd believe the honest answer....

If in fact you understood my reference to diamond wheels, they are easy to google and search.
There's at least a dozen in various shapes and grits here in the shop.

For freehand grinding, i have generally used an 11A2 shape = flaring cup with flat face.

For setting up on a T & C cutter grinder, an 11 shape = cup with the diamond grit wrapping the corner,
Or with a saucer shape, same deal - sharp corner. Both these last for getting in the pocket while facing teeth.
Since the diamond on an 11 shape is actually around the periphery, as it is used up or knocked off, the inside edge of the soft aluminum wheel is dressed out at an angle, to keep a rim of bare diamond. This should not be overdone, just the bulk of the metal near the very edge. Too much just knocks out and wastes diamond.

180 - 220 grit is good all purpose including roughing. 220 sort of light finishing. I would not bother with finer than 320 for a first wheel. Nor finer than 220 for freehand. Finish the freehand grind with a hand hone. That can be finer.

Most tooling carbide is ground with organic bond.
Metallic bond is usually used with wheels intended to grind stone & glass.

Part of the spec of a diamond wheel will also be the "percent concentration". Of course "100%" won't really be solid diamond, there is still quite a bit of matrix. It's more comparative. I have heard that 50% or 75% grinds cooler, but never experienced it. I usually use mist, or sometimes flood coolant assuming the mud is easier to deal with than an osmora in the air. As far as any big discount over 100% my figuring was that it did not save enough to go less than 100%. People who use these with a more technical/economic metric in mind might have better advice. Except the the first diamond wheel, indeed a 220 grit 100% conc, 3-3/4" 11A2 with a 1-1/4" bore, all the rest have been ebay snipes or machine shop auction buys.

Ebay is still a pretty good market place for such items.

It is also essential to have a cleaning stick. The wheels get gummed up, then overheat and deteriorate at the same time they quit cutting. This can happen pretty quick when freehand grinding.
I didn't shop for you on price,, but this is an example of the type product. They are consumables, and cleaning frequently keeps a diamond wheel face in shape and cooler, freer cutting.


As an aside, carbon (diamond) dissolves into steel at high temperatures. So grinding ferrous material is a good way to rapidly consume & to booger up (technical term) a diamond wheel.

smt
 
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JoeyInCali

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Joey in observing your comments, you often have an interesting or ironic way with words.
Said with some appreciation, too.
I assumed you were asking straight faced about my typo, for getting a diamond, singular.
So i answered it with a straight face as well.
A diamond dresser for conventional grinding wheels is a great source of cheap relatively large single diamonds. Just don't tell the girl where you bought it. When she looked at it, she'd believe the honest answer....

If in fact you understood my reference to diamond wheels, they are easy to google and search.
There's at least a dozen in various shapes and grits here in the shop.

For freehand grinding, i have generally used an 11A2 shape = flaring cup with flat face.

For setting up on a T & C cutter grinder, an 11 shape = cup with the diamond grit wrapping the corner,
Or with a saucer shape, same deal - sharp corner. Both these last for getting in the pocket while facing teeth.
Since the diamond on an 11 shape is actually around the periphery, as it is used up or knocked off, the inside edge of the soft aluminum wheel is dressed out at an angle, to keep a rim of bare diamond. This should not be overdone, just the bulk of the metal near the very edge. Too much just knocks out and wastes diamond.

180 - 220 grit is good all purpose including roughing. 220 sort of light finishing. I would not bother with finer than 320 for a first wheel. Nor finer than 220 for freehand. Finish the freehand grind with a hand hone. That can be finer.

Most tooling carbide is ground with organic bond.
Metallic bond is usually used with wheels intended to grind stone & glass.

Part of the spec of a diamond wheel will also be the "percent concentration". Of course "100%" won't really be solid diamond, there is still quite a bit of matrix. It's more comparative. I have heard that 50% or 75% grinds cooler, but never experienced it. I usually use mist, or sometimes flood coolant assuming the mud is easier to deal with than an osmora in the air. As far as any big discount over 100% my figuring was that it did not save enough to go less than 100%. People who use these with a more technical/economic metric in mind might have better advice. Except the the first diamond wheel, indeed a 220 grit 100% conc, 3-3/4" 11A2 with a 1-1/4" bore, all the rest have been ebay snipes or machine shop auction buys.

Ebay is still a pretty good market place for such items.

It is also essential to have a cleaning stick. The wheels get gummed up, then overheat and deteriorate at the same time they quit cutting. This can happen pretty quick when freehand grinding.
I didn't shop for you on price,, but this is an example of the type product. They are consumables, and cleaning frequently keeps a diamond wheel face in shape and cooler, freer cutting.


As an aside, carbon (diamond) dissolves into steel at high temperatures. So grinding ferrous material is a good way to rapidly consume & to booger up (technical term) a diamond wheel.

smt
Much appreciated .
 

conetip

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
We dress the diamond wheels with a piece of mild steel that is ground. It will correct the shape if it has some uneven wear. Then run the dressing stick over it to remove some of the bonding agent. The lower concentration wheels are cheaper, don't last as long, and don't seem to cut any cooler. To cut cooler , use a more course wheel, or dress away some of the bond, that leaves more diamond exposed. On cup wheels, they can be dressed easily with a flat plate, (Cast iron is good) and some carborundum grit, and rub the wheel in a figure 8 pattern. Also great for flattening oilstones and Arkansas stones too. When making cutters, the finer the surface finish all round, the longer the cutter will last before it requires a resharpen. Looking under a loupe or mini microscope shows the micro cracking that can happen with carbides if they are over heated etc.
My best results with the trimming were with the 8 wing uneven spaced and 6 wing uneven spaced cutters that I got made with PCD inserts. Somewhere is info about it and in the Album. They were very expensive to get made. I still have all of them.
 
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