Intentional double hit

S

smoooothstroke

JerLaw
Silver Member
This subject was brought up the other day in the pool room.

While playing 1 pocket (gambling) a player intentionaly hits the CB twice with his cue.The reason for this is to foul wile also moving the CB to a safe spot.Myself I see this as pretty much the same as raking the balls or intentionaly bumping a ball with your hand.

Is/should this be:

A) a foul

B) loss of game

C) fist fight
 
IMO its just a foul im mean whats the difference between that and taking a intentional scratch?
 
intentional double hit

Over the years I have seen players do this in one pocket- say your opponent needs 1 ball and has a ball so deep in his hole that you can't remove it and there is a ball on the table that your opponent could make
if he had ball in hand behind the string line if you made his ball and scratched. Simply double hit the cue ball
real easy and make the ball in his pocket but don't scratch. The ball you made comes up plus one of your's- I always thought it bordered on
cheating but on the other hand I not aware of a rule against it and you're still alive!
 
i believe grady matthews addressed this in the accu-stats highlight video. there was a situation like this in a one pocket match, they took it as a foul and the offending player owed one but grady was annoyed at it and said that in a gambling match that should be a lost of game.

in my opinion u get warned once and if u do it again u lose. i believe that double hit rule is to prevent shots where the cue and object balls are close together and a double hit can be used to guide the object ball. in this case, that's not happening so in my mind this rule does not apply. and this is different from an intentional foul since the foul shot was performed during your turn. in this case i would consider it sharking since u're technically hitting the cue ball when its no longer ur turn at the table. after first contact with the cue ball ur turn ends unless something goes in, so to intentionally hit it again when its no longer ur turn is unsportsmanlike and u should be punched in the face for it.
 
I agree. It's unsportsmanlike, and deserves a punch in the face or even a free kick to the stones..



Danktrees said:
i believe grady matthews addressed this in the accu-stats highlight video. there was a situation like this in a one pocket match, they took it as a foul and the offending player owed one but grady was annoyed at it and said that in a gambling match that should be a lost of game.

in my opinion u get warned once and if u do it again u lose. i believe that double hit rule is to prevent shots where the cue and object balls are close together and a double hit can be used to guide the object ball. in this case, that's not happening so in my mind this rule does not apply. and this is different from an intentional foul since the foul shot was performed during your turn. in this case i would consider it sharking since u're technically hitting the cue ball when its no longer ur turn at the table. after first contact with the cue ball ur turn ends unless something goes in, so to intentionally hit it again when its no longer ur turn is unsportsmanlike and u should be punched in the face for it.
Click to expand...
 
derekdisco said:
loss of game, i had this happen to me one time. .
Click to expand...

Louie Roberts vs Strawberry Brooks (Accu-Stats)

Straw "follows thru" and moves about 5 object balls to his side of the table. Louie treats it as a foul.

I think it was Grady Mathews in the booth who informed the viewers that in his opinion, such a deliberate foul constitutes loss of game per the rules.
 
In 14.1, it happens in almost every game....pushing into the CB to form a tangent out of danger.

I don't see anything wrong with it based on how the rules are written. Meaning, if someone miscues during a draw and it was "unintentional" - scoops the CB-- it's not a foul. Yet, if some moron tries to scoop - it is. This whole thing of things being "intentional" or not is stupid since it's near impossible to prove. Someone who pushes into the CB to get a specific outcome can say "I wasn't trying to double hit that..." or act confused when you get into the double hit talk. It's gray area and nearly impossible to enforce.
 
These things usually take care of thenselves. Sometimes only a mention of the offense, sometimes out back. The best solution is to come to an agreement on such matters before the match begins. My second wife, and I, solved all of our problems this way. I've been married three times.
 
"Intentional Fouls" and "Deliberate Fouls" in 14.1 Straight Pool

SpiderWebComm said:
In 14.1, it happens in almost every game....pushing into the CB to form a tangent out of danger.

I don't see anything wrong with it based on how the rules are written. Meaning, if someone miscues during a draw and it was "unintentional" - scoops the CB-- it's not a foul. Yet, if some moron tries to scoop - it is. This whole thing of things being "intentional" or not is stupid since it's near impossible to prove. Someone who pushes into the CB to get a specific outcome can say "I wasn't trying to double hit that..." or act confused when you get into the double hit talk. It's gray area and nearly impossible to enforce.
Click to expand...

Dave:

Actually during the Efren Reyes vs. Dallas West 2000 14.1 Straight Pool championship match (on Accu-Stats), after Efren runs a 141 and misses the rack during a break shot, they get into a little safety play. Then a couple balls here and there, and finally another safety battle. Efren takes an intentional scratch, Dallas replies with an intentional scratch (they each are now on one foul), and then Efren lightly taps the cue ball with the side of his ferrule (not the tip) with the intention of taking his second intentional foul. Dallas jumps out of his chair and calls the ref over -- he calls a "deliberate foul," which, according to the rule books, is an immediate 15-point penalty, plus the point penalty for the scratch itself. (Remember, that was only Efren's second foul.) The ref and the commentators agree, and 16 points are deducted from Efren's score. Poor Efren looks confused, but the match plays on, and Efren still wins the match convincingly.

So I guess my point is there's a difference between an "intentional foul" and a "deliberate foul" -- the latter being more serious and invoking an immediate 15-point penalty + 1-point for the scratch itself.

I'm thinking the same thing *should* exist (doesn't mean it does, but "should" in this poster's eyes) for One Pocket. Or, immediate loss of game as others have pointed out.

-Sean
 
sfleinen said:
Dave:

Actually during the Efren Reyes vs. Dallas West 2000 14.1 Straight Pool championship match (on Accu-Stats), after Efren runs a 141 and misses the rack during a break shot, they get into a little safety play. Then a couple balls here and there, and finally another safety battle. Efren takes an intentional scratch, Dallas replies with an intentional scratch (they each are now on one foul), and then Efren lightly taps the cue ball with the side of his ferrule (not the tip) with the intention of taking his second intentional foul. Dallas jumps out of his chair and calls the ref over -- he calls a "deliberate foul," which, according to the rule books, is an immediate 15-point penalty, plus the point penalty for the scratch itself. (Remember, that was only Efren's second foul.) The ref and the commentators agree, and 16 points are deducted from Efren's score. Poor Efren looks confused, but the match plays on, and Efren still wins the match convincingly.

So I guess my point is there's a difference between an "intentional foul" and a "deliberate foul" -- the latter being more serious and invoking an immediate 15-point penalty + 1-point for the scratch itself.

I'm thinking the same thing *should* exist (doesn't mean it does, but "should" in this poster's eyes) for One Pocket. Or, immediate loss of game as others have pointed out.

-Sean
Click to expand...

I'm aware of the deliberate foul thing. The thing is... SOOOO many players take intentionals by running the tip along the cloth to the bottom of the ball, touching their tip to the very top of the ball- or tapping the CB with their ferrule that I've quit bringing it up during matches. People seem to look at me like I'm crazy (and these are guys who have been playing for decades).

It's just one of those things that are never enforced unless you're in a US Open / World Championship environment. 95% of league play or gambling matches -- you just don't see it. Not saying it's right/wrong-- I'm just saying no one enforces it or is even aware of it. I felt like I was fighting a losing fight even saying something-- so I now ignore it and do the same thing back to whoever I'm playing.
 
There seems to me to be a certain stentch to this type 'intentional' foul. It is one thing to intentionally foul to remove a possible easy scoring opportunity for you opponent, but to intentionall double hit, especially to move a ball into your favor seems beyond reasonable to me. Why not just move the object ball with you cue and not even use the cue ball?

Can anything in this rule (from the World Rules) be used in this case?

6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
The normal penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is the same as for a serious foul, but the referee may impose a penalty depending on his judgment of the conduct. Among other penalties possible are a warning; a standard-foul penalty, which will count as part of a three-foul sequence if applicable; a serious-foul penalty; loss of a rack, set or match; ejection from the competition possibly with forfeiture of all prizes, trophies and standings points.
Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
(a) distracting the opponent;
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing;
(d) continuing to play after a foul has been called or play has been suspended;
(e) practicing during a match;
(f) marking the table;
(g) delay of the game; and
(h) using equipment inappropriately.

I think (b) or (c) might fit. In (b), your shot ends after first contact, but you intentionally hit the cue ball twice, creating the intentional double hit foul.

I agree with sfleinen that it should be considered a 'deliberate' foul and punishable by more that a simple foul...it should fall into the Unsportsmanlike Conduct (6.16) catagory. But as mentioned, hard to prove sometimes.

L8R...Ken
 
mike8or9 said:
Over the years I have seen players do this in one pocket- say your opponent needs 1 ball and has a ball so deep in his hole that you can't remove it and there is a ball on the table that your opponent could make
if he had ball in hand behind the string line if you made his ball and scratched. Simply double hit the cue ball
real easy and make the ball in his pocket but don't scratch. The ball you made comes up plus one of your's- I always thought it bordered on
cheating but on the other hand I not aware of a rule against it and you're still alive!
Click to expand...

according to the onepocket.org site, the rules to one pocket state...
6. Fouls

6.2 Any scratch or foul results in the end of the shooter’s inning, as well as a standard one ball penalty. All balls pocketed in the shooter’s pocket as a result of a stroke that includes a foul do not count for the shooting player and are to be immediately spotted, along with the standard one ball penalty. Also, any balls pocketed in the opponent’s pocket on a stroke that ends in either a pocket scratch or with the cue ball off the table are not to be counted for the opponent, and are to be immediately spotted. However, on a stroke when any other foul is committed (such as a push shot, double-hit or illegal ball contact), any balls scored into the opponent’s pocket are to stay down and be counted for the opponent.

6.3 Following either a pocket scratch or the cue ball jumping the table, the incoming player has cue ball in hand behind the head string. Following any other foul, the cue ball is played where it lies.
 
The way you get around that.....

If you then say, you didn't see the double hit / foul, and you don't think it was a foul.

they want to be underhanded.. respond in kind.
 
mike8or9 said:
Over the years I have seen players do this in one pocket- say your opponent needs 1 ball and has a ball so deep in his hole that you can't remove it and there is a ball on the table that your opponent could make
if he had ball in hand behind the string line if you made his ball and scratched. Simply double hit the cue ball
real easy and make the ball in his pocket but don't scratch. The ball you made comes up plus one of your's- I always thought it bordered on
cheating but on the other hand I not aware of a rule against it and you're still alive!
Click to expand...

Read the rules. In the BCA rule book it clearly states that a ball made in an opponents pocket stays down unless the cue ball either scratches or leaves the table. On all other fouls only the player who fouls spots one of his balls. It is stated in 2 different places, both under scoring and under fouls.

Dick
 
Also.. bring this up if it's done.

http://www.onepocket.org/one_pocket_pool_rules.htm

6.6 Intentional fouls are an accepted part of One Pocket tactics as long as they are played by use of a legal stroke, such as by lightly touching the cue ball with the cue tip; by rolling the cue ball to a new location without regard for legal contact with either an object ball or a cushion; by pocket scratching the cue ball; or by using a legal jump technique to force the cue ball off the table. However, if the acting official rules that a player has used an illegal technique to direct the cue ball or any object balls to a more desirable location, then the incoming player has the option of either playing the balls where they lie, or requesting the official to restore all such moved balls to their location prior to the illegal maneuver. The offending player is charged the standard one ball foul penalty, and in addition may be further penalized at the discretion of the acting official under the general rules of unsportsmanlike conduct.
 
rhncue said:
Read the rules. In the BCA rule book it clearly states that a ball made in an opponents pocket stays down unless the cue ball either scratches or leaves the table. On all other fouls only the player who fouls spots one of his balls. It is stated in 2 different places, both under scoring and under fouls.

Dick
Click to expand...

That would be the simplest way to go... read the rule books. Why didn't I think of that.

good one.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I'm aware of the deliberate foul thing. The thing is... SOOOO many players take intentionals by running the tip along the cloth to the bottom of the ball, touching their tip to the very top of the ball- or tapping the CB with their ferrule that I've quit bringing it up during matches. People seem to look at me like I'm crazy (and these are guys who have been playing for decades).

It's just one of those things that are never enforced unless you're in a US Open / World Championship environment. 95% of league play or gambling matches -- you just don't see it. Not saying it's right/wrong-- I'm just saying no one enforces it or is even aware of it. I felt like I was fighting a losing fight even saying something-- so I now ignore it and do the same thing back to whoever I'm playing.
Click to expand...

Now I am confused.If my opponent is on a foul and I don't want to move the cue ball I do the run the stick along the cloth and touch the cue ball thing all the time, and I do it one handed mostly, I thought as long as you touch it with the tip it was ok.
steven
edit: this situation comes up in straight all the time and this is what I am referring to.
 
Last edited:
loss of game IMO

Just to be clear I am talking about a double stroke or a very long slow stroke (deliberate foul).

What DD posted is the exact situation that was brought up.

I got this from the 1P rules that Pony posted:

6.6 Intentional fouls are an accepted part of One Pocket tactics as long as they are played by use of a legal stroke, such as by lightly touching the cue ball with the cue tip; by rolling the cue ball to a new location without regard for legal contact with either an object ball or a cushion; by pocket scratching the cue ball; or by using a legal jump technique to force the cue ball off the table. However, if the acting official rules that a player has used an illegal technique to direct the cue ball or any object balls to a more desirable location, then the incoming player has the option of either playing the balls where they lie, or requesting the official to restore all such moved balls to their location prior to the illegal maneuver. The offending player is charged the standard one ball foul penalty, and in addition may be further penalized at the discretion of the acting official under the general rules of unsportsmanlike conduct.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top