Lets say the 9-ball is hanging in the jaws of the corner pocket, and you are locked up in jail behind a cluster of balls. There is no way to kick and pocket the 9 to prevent an easy combination, and none of the balls the cueball is frozen to are in line with the 9 ball. If you intentionally follow thru and double hit the cueball so that your stick pushes it thru all the balls and you make the 9, even though it is an intentional foul, should that be loss of game?
Intentional Double Hit
- Thread starter cuetechasaurus
- Start date
jjinfla said:
Under the right circumstances, yes. Like I said, there are times when it's the best defense. If the alternative is likely to give your opponent BIH with a clean combo on the 9, yes, I would take away the 9, and hope I got another chance at the table.
Steve
I believe the foul occurs on the first bad hit and your opponent may replace the balls to their prior location, takin BIH, as per usual.
In one pocket, fouls like this are illegal, according to onepocket.org:
Cory
6.6 Intentional fouls are an accepted part of One Pocket tactics as long as they are played by use of a legal stroke, such as by lightly touching the cue ball with the cue tip; by rolling the cue ball to a new location without regard for legal contact with either an object ball or a cushion; by pocket scratching the cue ball; or by using a legal jump technique to force the cue ball off the table. However, if the acting official rules that a player has used an illegal technique to direct the cue ball or any object balls to a more desirable location, then the incoming player has the option of either playing the balls where they lie, or requesting the official to restore all such moved balls to their location prior to the illegal maneuver. The offending player is charged the standard one ball foul penalty, and in addition may be further penalized at the discretion of the acting official under the general rules of unsportsmanlike conduct.
I've never seen this come up in 8 or 9 ball, though. If the double-foul is legal, what about just tapping the 9 in with your hand and saying "you got ball in hand"?Cory
Cory in DC said:
I think that would not be a ball pocketed with a foul (which would make it spot-up), since it was your hand (or even the stick) that bumped or pocketed the ball, so this method could get you in really hot water (losing the game for you) since your opponent could easily argue for the spotting of the ball in its original position (in front of the pocket) and would shoot with ball in hand.
Last edited:
cuetechasaurus said:
This goes a bit beyond the "well, what do the rules say about THIS". Honestly, the rules say nothing specific about a player who deliberately disturbs the lay-out of the table by hitting the cue-ball multiple times (sounds bad when it's phrased this way, huh?). Any intelligent referee who recognized this as being deliberate would immediately penalize him one game and warn the shooter that doing it again would result in a loss of match.
Jude Rosenstock said:
I guess I mis-understood the original question. I would agree that deliberately disturbing the balls would be a poor solution. Powering into a cluster is almost always going to result in a foul. If, in the course of doing it, the nine drops, I would think it would be a BIH foul. If anything other than the cue ball causes other balls to move, I would agree with your assessment. Intentional fouls are a part of defensive strategy in some cases...deliberately moving balls is going beyond the scope of fair play. I would have to reconsider my initial response to the question, based on the circumstances involved.
Steve
Cory in DC said:
This is the rule for one pocket but even in tournament play its not always enforced. Take a look if you get a chance at Lou Butera vs Strawberry from the early 90s Legends of One Pocket. Strawberry is in a spot and he goes and shoots and then pushes through moving balls in the process. It almost looks accidental until you rewind and look at the layout again. Danny Diliberto is doing commentary on the tape and is clearly offended by Strawberry's move and he calls it out as a foul and a loss of game. Danny insists that were he gambling on that game he would never have let Strawberry get away with that.
uwate said:
I think it's pretty obvious. If a guy I was gambling with did this, we'd have a serious problem.
This is a gray area. I don't think that the rules are clear as to what to do. A less flagrant situation is: a ball is on the foot spot, the cue ball is where a second spotted ball would be but not quite touching the object ball. The nine ball is hanging in a head pocket and the one ball is perfectly hidden. A double hit on the cue ball pockets the nine.cuetechasaurus said:
A complication is that in some tournaments double hits are not called as fouls.
Jude Rosenstock said:
The first time I saw the tape I just thought it was an accident. Then another guy and I were talking and he said it was absolutely on purpose. So I went back and looked again and on further review I believe he was right and it was on purpose. I think its alot harder to address this if its done in a manner that it could have been an accident...
I guarantee it would depend on who you were playing and the score and the amount. Now if you were playing a complete sucker that you rob all the time than I am sure you are going to let him slide. Than again if your playing Earl in the final and it is double hill, hold the phone, stop the presses and respot the 9 ball in the corner and take ball in hand. The gray area on this is the circumstance. Are you really going to tell some sucker that you got stuck 20 games that that was an intentional foul and loss of game
Bob Jewett said:
Hey Bob, I just want to say that I always respect your opinion. Your responses are always well-thought and intelligent. However, if someone deliberately double-hit the cue-ball as the only means to create a path to pocket a hanging nine-ball, I'd probably flip out.
I remember reading a story about how Jersey-Red was told moving an object ball was a foul in 1-pocket. Jersey Red said, "Oh, it's a foul?" and proceeded to move all the balls near his pocket and say, "There, I'm on TWO!"
Jude Rosenstock said:
IIRC, his opponent's backer replied,"We quit, this guy knows too much...".
IIRC! Like I wars there or something!
pooltchr said:
It seems to me that if a person stroked the cue ball with one fluid motion, and drove the cue ball into a cluster in such a way that a double hit on the cue ball was inevitable and slammed the balls all around without the cue ball or any other ball touching anything but the tip of the cue that the foul would result in BIH.
Experts on the matter of fouls. please pontificate.
Flex
I'm an expert fouler, how would you like me to pontificate?Flex said:
Cory in DC said:
I would think that tapping it in with our hand would be a cause for an unsportmanslike conduct call and loss of game, and perhaps match.
A double hit on the cue ball is like any other foul. Unless the payer announces that he is intentionally fouling, who is to say whether it was intentional or not. Even if it was, an intentional foul is often the best defensive play and not "cheating."
More than once I have intentionally shot a hanging 9 ball into the pocket, had it spotted and given up BIH rather than leave it for my opponent when I had no shot. Did I feel bad about it? "No." I felt it was my best option within the rules.
My answer is that it would be loss of game because it was an illegal shot.
It is like the shot in the Byrne video where he strokes through the CB and the cb pushes a ball out of the way and the tip of the cue continues on and hits the OB and makes it. An obvious foul but is too fast for the eye to see.
The best thing is to stop hiim before he takes the shot. But then if you are still going to win the money who cares?
It is like the shot in the Byrne video where he strokes through the CB and the cb pushes a ball out of the way and the tip of the cue continues on and hits the OB and makes it. An obvious foul but is too fast for the eye to see.
The best thing is to stop hiim before he takes the shot. But then if you are still going to win the money who cares?