Intentional Double Hit

[Bob Jewett]

... However, if someone deliberately double-hit the cue-ball as the only means to create a path to pocket a hanging nine-ball, I'd probably flip out.
...

OK, but suppose you then went to the tournament director and explained the shot and he says, "That's a permitted stroke in this tournament." (I'm talking about the single ball interfering case.) That is the way some tournaments are run. I remember one World 14.1 Championship in NYC that was run that way. Surely if the stroke itself is legal, taking a foul using the stroke should also be a permitted foul.

At 14.1 a common technique when playing soft safeties on the rack is to kind of push the cue ball into the stack. Probably two or three contacts, maybe more. Should that be a 15-point penalty? Plus ball in hand? Plus keelhauling?

I think the technique is probably more commonly useful at one pocket where your opponent's goal is to freeze you to a ball blocking the path to where you would like to go. I've heard of a player who was so trapped behind one ball and double-hit through to pocket his opponent's well-hidden hanger. His opponent was surprised but then admitted it was a pretty smart play.

So far I haven't said here what should and should not be permitted. If anyone reading this far thinks I've committed myself that far, they need to review. What I have said is that it seems to me that the rules do not cover this case well. Even the rules from onepocket.org could be a little clearer, as could the DCC rules where they talk about double hits at one pocket.

 

[supergreenman]

Should that be a 15-point penalty? Plus ball in hand? Plus keelhauling?

LOL @ keelhauling I guess it's something to watch out for now that they put pool tables on the new cruise liners.

 

[kingwang]

Dredging this thread back up after 20 years - have any updates been made to the rules since then or is this still a grey area?

Asking because it happened during a match yesterday. Both of us are seasoned players and we also had a touring pro, Boris Ivanovski, around us but we didn't really come up with a conclusion other than that it's a grey area. We were going to ask John Leyman his opinion next time we saw him, but I figured I'd ask AzB first.

Screenshot 1 - this was basically the situation in our match (other balls not shown for simplicity). My opponent purposefully pushed through the 7 to break up the dead combo. Legality here seems like a grey area.

Screenshot 2 - what if he pushed through the 7/8 cluster here? That oddly seems less legal.

Screenshot 3 - what if he pushes through with a super long follow through? Or intentionally miscues and scoop jumps over the cluster? Seems definitely not legal.

Screenshot 4 - what if he taps the cueball to reposition it and hits it again while it's moving to break up the cluster? Not legal without doubt.

 

[Tennesseejoe]

WORLD STANDARDIZED RULES
Unsportsmanship like conduct is defined as any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or disrupts fare play.
ALTERING BALL POSITIONS...Changing position of balls in play by any other method other than a legal shot.

To me it is just like raking the balls off of the table...END OF GAME.

 

[Sheldon]

Most rule sets treat “intentional foul” and “unsportsmanlike conduct” separately:

• A “routine” intentional foul (like taking a deliberate foul to break up a cluster in some games) is usually penalized the same as any other foul: ball‑in‑hand and spotting the 9.reddit
• “Unsportsmanlike conduct” covers actions that bring the sport into disrepute or clearly abuse the rules of fair play (for example, moving balls by hand, sharking, or repeatedly abusing intentional fouls).

Under WPA rules, unsportsmanlike conduct can be penalized as a serious foul, up to loss of rack or stronger discipline, but it is at the referee’s discretion.wpapool

In most modern 9‑ball interpretations, the specific tactic you describe—knowingly fouling to knock in a hanging 9 so it gets spotted—is treated as a perfectly legal tactical foul:

• Common league and tournament guidance explicitly notes that pocketing the 9 on a foul results in the 9 being spotted and ball‑in‑hand, and players sometimes choose this intentionally to avoid leaving an easy win.
• As long as you’re not doing anything outside the normal stroke (like pushing balls around with your hand), it’s usually not considered unsportsmanlike and not loss of game.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Roll call! Who's still here after 20 years.

I think both the 1st post in this thread and the 20 year resurrection post could and should be treated as "unsportsmanlike conduct" and loss of game.

Since this thread was started, in one pocket, an intentionally double hit to freeze the CB to the tit is often now played a foul plus BIH.

 

[iusedtoberich]

@kingwang I'd like to know what search terms you used to find this thread

 

[kingwang]

@kingwang I'd like to know what search terms you used to find this thread

One of the first things that popped up when I googled "intentional double hit"