intentional foul, kinda??

buck15

buck15

going broke! got there!
Silver Member
i was playing in a tournament last night, 9 ball. i playd a safe and froze my opponent to the side of 2 ball.he had no way to kick at it. the one ball i had bumped down near the 9 ball to set up for a combo. the hooked player pushed thru the 2 frozen balls, with his cue and cueball and scrambled the balls. i know that the push itself is a foul but is this legal?? i think it probably is in most formats but the way this person did it shows a lack of class. i thought i had watched an accustats tape where they discussed this and said it was lose of game. it shows a major lack of class in my opinion. what are your thoughts??:D
 
buck15 said:
i was playing in a tournament last night, 9 ball. i playd a safe and froze my opponent to the side of 2 ball.he had no way to kick at it. the one ball i had bumped down near the 9 ball to set up for a combo. the hooked player pushed thru the 2 frozen balls, with his cue and cueball and scrambled the balls. i know that the push itself is a foul but is this legal?? i think it probably is in most formats but the way this person did it shows a lack of class. i thought i had watched an accustats tape where they discussed this and said it was lose of game. it shows a major lack of class in my opinion. what are your thoughts??:D
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EDITTED:

Yes, it's a foul. Loss of game? Don't know, wouldn't bet against it in a tourney. Playing 1-on-1 however, why pick a fight.
 
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SpiderWebComm said:
I believe if the CB is actually frozen to another ball, the shooter may shoot through the ball - as a push - with no foul.
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You may be right, but I would think that is only true IF the frozen ball is the intended (legal) OB...which the 2 would not be when the 1 is on the table. Shooting thru the 2 to get to the 1 seems like a foul to me independent of being frozen or not.
 
I thought push shots were illegal?

I don't know about intentional fouls in 9-ball, but seems ok to me?
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I believe if the CB is actually frozen to another ball, the shooter may shoot through the ball - as a push - with no foul. The shooter must call the balls as frozen prior to shooting. I don't think it's a foul. If there is any separation between the balls, the shooter must 'shoot-away' as to not push. Anyone else wanna chime in?
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I don't think so..... there's this 45 degree rule.. you either have to be jacked up on the cue at least 45 degrees or on the ball (meaning you need to shoot away from the frozen ball) by 45 degrees or it's a push and all pushes are fouls.

I could be wrong, but anyway.... back to the original question... intentional 'scratches' are totally allowed. However, intentionally pushing a ball is like moving the balls with your hands - just bad behavior!!
 
Man, I was spacing out. I forgot he was talking about 9-ball. Of course it was a foul. If the CB was frozen to the 1-ball, he could push through it... no foul. Since he was frozen to an impeding ball - not the 1 - it's still a foul cause he hit another ball first.

Sorry, LOOOONG day at work.
 
If he pushed through and hit any ball except the cue ball with his cue, then I would question his ethics. However, it seems like he had to foul no matter what he did, so to me this would be kind of like trying to tie up a couple of balls while taking the intentional foul. Could be a smart move or not. Having not been there, it's kind of hard to judge.
 
y'all are on the wrong track. he's asking if it's an unsportsmanlike conduct foul to push through the 2, scrambling the 1-9 he lined up. i think the hit on the frozen ball is not the question...

edit: unsportsmanlike conduct would be loss of game i think.

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-s
 
1stLady said:
I don't think so..... there's this 45 degree rule.. you either have to be jacked up on the cue at least 45 degrees or on the ball (meaning you need to shoot away from the frozen ball) by 45 degrees or it's a push and all pushes are fouls.

I could be wrong, but anyway.... back to the original question... intentional 'scratches' are totally allowed. However, intentionally pushing a ball is like moving the balls with your hands - just bad behavior!!
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I'm pretty sure you can shoot-through frozen balls --- assuming the ball that's frozen to the CB is fair game to hit first. No 45 degree rule. I think that's a league rule or something.

I watched Allen Hopkins play Bob Maidoff at a 14.1 tourney in PA. Allen was frozen to a ball, called it frozen, shot through the ball, caromed into another ball (that he called) and BARELY missed it. Of course, this discussion was discussed in the crowd. Ultimately, if the CB and OB are truly frozen - you can shoot through as if the OB wasn't there - LEGALLY.
 
yep

steev said:
y'all are on the wrong track. he's asking if it's an unsportsmanlike conduct foul to push through the 2, scrambling the 1-9 he lined up. i think the hit on the frozen ball is not the question...

edit: unsportsmanlike conduct would be loss of game i think.

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-s
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thats what i thought. i think i saw it on a tornament once.
 
steev said:
y'all are on the wrong track. he's asking if it's an unsportsmanlike conduct foul to push through the 2, scrambling the 1-9 he lined up. i think the hit on the frozen ball is not the question...

edit: unsportsmanlike conduct would be loss of game i think.

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-s
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Not the same shot, but had/seen similar situations and seen guys shot the two into the 9 to break up the combo. It's a foul but never heard of loss of game for doing this. I think it's not a respectful shot, but seen it done and even have been told to do it during league.

ez
 
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now that we cleared up the question :D

I think all's fair, just a normal foul. In referee'd situations the unsportsmanlike call could come into play.

consider the case where you shoot the duck 9 straight in to spot it instead of fouling to give away the easy easy 1-9 combo. kinda the same deal...

-s
 
This topic has been discussed on AZ before. In a professional matchup, that would almost surely be immediate loss of game. In a local tournie? Guess it depends on the rules your TD goes by.

Any way you look at it, it's a very low class move, to shoot "through" the two, double hit the cue ball, and to send them towards the 1-9 to break it up. Might as well just walk up to the 9 ball with his cue and shoot it. It's as bad.
 
I've had this happen to me before. Playing 9ball my opponent (very good player) scratched on the break and the balls clustered again by the spot. There was an easy way to three foul him so I played another safe locking him up on the 2ball for the 2nd foul, just as described. He knew I would play another lockup safe how the balls were positioned so he shot through the two ball to break the cluster up so I may have a hard chance at the 3rd foul. He actually made it easier and I did complete the 3 foul.

Personally I do not see a problem with this. He is taking an intentional foul and whatever happens to the balls on the table happens. Just like taking a foul and moving a ball next to a lower ball by the rail so the uncoming player has to break it out down the road. Not unsportsmanlike, just strategy.

Now if he shot through the balls, faked tripping, and he cue swept 4 or 5 balls around the table with the side of his shaft then that would be deemed unsportsmanlike....still his strategy...but also still unsportsmanlike.
 
UWPoolGod1 said:
Now if he shot through the balls, faked tripping, and he cue swept 4 or 5 balls around the table with the side of his shaft then that would be deemed unsportsmanlike....still his strategy...but also still unsportsmanlike.
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Why is it only unsportsmanlike if it's 4 or 5 balls moved in this manner? Isn't 1 just as bad? Where do you draw the line? 2.7 balls? heh
 
In terms of sportsmanship, it seems to me it makes a difference whether the balls were frozen or not and how he hit it. If he made a deliberate double-hit and pushed the balls around, then it would be, at minimum, unsportsmanlike I think. But pushing through a frozen ball seems no different than deliberately hitting the wrong ball to tie them up.
 
I don't think it was unsportsmanlike, considering the CB was frozen to the 2. If another ball is frozen to the CB, you can legally stroke through both balls...according to the general rules of pocket billiards. The fact that the 2 wasn't the lowest numbered ball on the table made that particular shot a foul.

The real question is if the CB and 2 were NOT frozen, and he intentionally stroke through both balls. Now, I would deem that as unsportsmanlike. There is a difference.
 
jsp said:
I don't think it was unsportsmanlike, considering the CB was frozen to the 2. If another ball is frozen to the CB, you can legally stroke through both balls...according to the general rules of pocket billiards. The fact that the 2 wasn't the lowest numbered ball on the table made that particular shot a foul.

The real question is if the CB and 2 were NOT frozen, and he intentionally stroke through both balls. Now, I would deem that as unsportsmanlike. There is a difference.
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In your scenario, you need to call the TD over to determine if it's a "foul" or "intentional foul" or "unsportsmanlike foul" by checking whether the two balls were frozen? Heh... I'd like to see THAT one :D
 
Intentional foul okay by me...

According to the table diagram posted here I see nothing wrong with taking an intentional foul...and in the process spoiling a future shot that your opponent may be looking forward to.

Suppose the 9-ball was hanging in one of the top corner pockets...I see nothing wrong with taking an intentional foul by pocketing it...you are giving away ball in hand...but taking away your opponent's obvious game win.

You'll probably still lose the game...but you raise your hope level...and I see nothing wrong with making it a bit more difficult for your opponent. I don't see where it can be ruled unsportsmanlike.

Mike
 
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