Intentional foul situation (straight pool)

[Vahmurka]

I decided to post it here instead of Straight Pool subforum, since there might be more feedback, though such situation could obviously arise in 14.1 only (probably One Pocket as well).

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AALW4BCpG3...HAUE3IAUj3JWRr4KDvW3LBjW3MFCQ4NBJl3OBql4PBqL@

I had to play intentional scratch since I couldn't make any ball or play good safety shot from where cb was. So I rolled the whitey precisely ending with a schoolbook position. You cannot move the cb by brushing the 1 because you will scratch either in the corner or in the middle.

What my opponent did was taking a cue in the balance point and tapping the cb on top with his tip. The position didn't change a single bit, and I had to move the cb a little taking second foul just to change the position.
I told my opponent I thought it was not proper hit, the way he did it. I think he was supposed to use normal stroke and alter the position, even in tiny amount.

There was a similar thread about intentional foul by grabbing the cb in hand, and I found relevant quotes there (bold font by me):

In the 2000 14.1 US Open, Efren Reyes plays Dallas West.
After a 141-ball run, a safetly battle ensues and Reyes takes an intentional foul, by tapping the cueball with his ferrule to keep it frozen to the ball. Because it wasn't a legal stroke, Reyes incurred a 15 (I think) point penalty.
Dallas realized this and called to verify the rule--that doing such was a particular trespass--and he was correct in doing so. Reyes was penalized appropriately, and it was clear that he wasn't aware of the rule prior to playing the foul.

You are required to shoot a shot when it's your turn, even if it is only tapping the ball with your tip.
The fundamental rule of cue sports is that the only way to play is by striking the cue ball forward with your chalked cue tip. Violating that fundamental rule, for example by pushing out with the side of your shaft, puts you in danger of forfeiting the rack, the match or your participation in the tournament.

"Striking forward" is exactly what I think (but earlier Bob Jewett mentions tapping as well). But there is no such words about "forward" in official rules. So, is such tapping with the tip legal or not?

 

[briandlau]

You could tap the cue into the 1ball. If they're frozen, then focus on the 1ball into the 15ball.

 

[Steve Lipsky]

Touching with tip only from on top is just fine, and in fact, often preferred.

Don't touch with anything else, though, as that is a flagrant foul.

 

[Drew]

I often use a different stroke. Lay the cue on the table with the tip under the cb. Now just lift the front of the cue barely skimming the ball as you come up.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I often use a different stroke. Lay the cue on the table with the tip under the cb. Now just lift the front of the cue barely skimming the ball as you come up.

This stroke has been specifically ruled to be a foul. Sadly, some instructors who don't keep up with the rules are actually teaching it.

A shot can only be made with a forward (forward along the axis of the stick) motion. Lifting the stick in this fashion is not a permitted shot. It is likely to be treated as unsportsmanlike conduct, just as if you had moved the cue ball with your hand.

 

[Drew]

This stroke has been specifically ruled to be a foul. Sadly, some instructors who don't keep up with the rules are actually teaching it.

A shot can only be made with a forward (forward along the axis of the stick) motion. Lifting the stick in this fashion is not a permitted shot. It is likely to be treated as unsportsmanlike conduct, just as if you had moved the cue ball with your hand.

I didn't know that. Thanks for the info. Guess I'll have to learn some other technique.

 

[Rarelymisses]

This stroke has been specifically ruled to be a foul. Sadly, some instructors who don't keep up with the rules are actually teaching it.

A shot can only be made with a forward (forward along the axis of the stick) motion. Lifting the stick in this fashion is not a permitted shot. It is likely to be treated as unsportsmanlike conduct, just as if you had moved the cue ball with your hand.

What is your source for such information ? When I shoot certain masse' shots, I am striking almost directly downward on the top of the cue ball. Is that an illegal stroke ? Why couldn't the same, but shorter, stroke be used in fouling intentionally ?

 

[Solartje]

i would think that lifting the cue from beneath the cb would not be a foul. As long as the cb has any horizontal movement and the movement was done by the cb touching the tip, it shouldnt be a fault.

but im in europe, and have no idea how the rulez are over the pond.

 

[Jimmy M.]

This stroke has been specifically ruled to be a foul. Sadly, some instructors who don't keep up with the rules are actually teaching it.

A shot can only be made with a forward (forward along the axis of the stick) motion. Lifting the stick in this fashion is not a permitted shot. It is likely to be treated as unsportsmanlike conduct, just as if you had moved the cue ball with your hand.

I wouldn't shoot this shot in this situation, and this is a little off topic, but there is a shot that I've often wondered whether it's a foul not. If an object ball is close to the rail, near frozen, and the cue ball is very close to the object ball, you can aim way off to the side of the cue ball that is opposite the object ball and miscue. It bumps the cue ball just enough to tap the OB to a rail. Now, if the ferrule hit the cue ball I would assume it's a foul but I can hit this shot pretty consistently and it doesn't feel like the ferrule is hitting the cue ball. Perhaps you've seen this shot before as I know I'm not the one who made it up or anything (I saw someone else doing it and tried it myself). I've often wondered how a tournament director would call that if I attempted it in an actual match.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I wouldn't shoot this shot in this situation, and this is a little off topic, but there is a shot that I've often wondered whether it's a foul not. If an object ball is close to the rail, near frozen, and the cue ball is very close to the object ball, you can aim way off to the side of the cue ball that is opposite the object ball and miscue. ...

In the new revision of the WPA World Standardized Rules, it is unsportsmanlike conduct to miscue intentionally. Such a shot is not a permitted shot. It is not part of the game. Here is an excerpt from the draft revision:

... Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
(a.) distracting the opponent;
(b.) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing, ...​

Bob Jewett
WPA Rules Revision Committee

 

[Bob Jewett]

What is your source for such information ? When I shoot certain masse' shots, I am striking almost directly downward on the top of the cue ball. Is that an illegal stroke ? Why couldn't the same, but shorter, stroke be used in fouling intentionally ?

In a masse shot, and even in those 14.1 safes where the tip taps the top of the cue ball, the stick is moving forward along its main axis when it hits the cue ball.

 

[Dan White]

... Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
(a.) distracting the opponent;
(b.) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing, ...​

I think they missed one, IMO:

(d.) shooting jump shots.

dwhite

 

[Bob Jewett]

I think they missed one, IMO:

(d.) shooting jump shots.

dwhite

While there is no specific official penalty for shooting a jump shot, there is no way I can stop you from "educating" the perps in the alley behind the pool hall when the constabulary is elsewhere. Of course, nothing said here should be taken as promoting such an educational program.

 

[Slider]

If an object ball is close to the rail, near frozen, and the cue ball is very close to the object ball, you can aim way off to the side of the cue ball that is opposite the object ball and miscue. It bumps the cue ball just enough to tap the OB to a rail. Now, if the ferrule hit the cue ball I would assume it's a foul but I can hit this shot pretty consistently and it doesn't feel like the ferrule is hitting the cue ball. Perhaps you've seen this shot before as I know I'm not the one who made it up or anything (I saw someone else doing it and tried it myself). I've often wondered how a tournament director would call that if I attempted it in an actual match.

Unfortunately, what a TD might call is an unknown, and varies from TD to TD.

In the new revision of the WPA World Standardized Rules, it is unsportsmanlike conduct to miscue intentionally. Such a shot is not a permitted shot. It is not part of the game. Here is an excerpt from the draft revision:

... Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
(a.) distracting the opponent;
(b.) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing, ...​

Bob Jewett
WPA Rules Revision Committee

Bob,

What about Jimmy M's shot makes it a miscue? (other than his misuse of the term) Is there a definition for miscue which would include this type of stroke?

The way I view this, is that if the tip of the cue makes some sort of movement through space, and that movement incorporates a single, momentary contact with the cue ball due to a hand motion from the stroking hand, it would be a legal stroke. While it's true that it might be representative of a style which could be described as "extreme english", that's a matter of cueing style. If we start to make subjective judgements of what constitutes a legal stroke based on a ratio of forward stroking motions vs. side stroking motions (A.K.A. BHE), then we are headed down a path of endless controversy.

Ken

 

[Bob Jewett]

... What about Jimmy M's shot makes it a miscue? ...

The tip slides on the surface of the ball. It clearly does not stick to it, or the cue ball would get a fair amount of speed and serious spin. In a normal (non-miscue) shot, the tip sticks to the cue ball and does not slide on its surface. You might argue that maybe on normal shots the tip moves a little on the surface of the ball, but it is the nearly perfect sticking of the tip to the cue ball's surface that makes playing pool possible. Those who don't believe this should try playing spin shots with a clean, wet tip.

 

[Vahmurka]

Here is an excerpt from the draft revision

did I understand it right that these are future changes/additions to current WPA rules?

Bob, could you also share your opinion on my described situaton? The cue was not moving along it's axis, my partner just touched the top of cb with the edge of his tip. I wonder if it is present in rules of play already (striking forward or along cue's axis) or is intended to be included; can't check the rules myself now.

 

[Steve Lipsky]

did I understand it right that these are future changes/additions to current WPA rules?

Bob, could you also share your opinion on my described situaton? The cue was not moving along it's axis, my partner just touched the top of cb with the edge of his tip. I wonder if it is present in rules of play already (striking forward or along cue's axis) or is intended to be included; can't check the rules myself now.

Vahmurka, as I mentioned early in this thread, this is a perfectly legal stroke for an intentional foul.

I'm a bit confused actually why some people are suggesting to do other things. How hard is it to lower the tip onto the cueball, as in a masse stroke? I've been doing this for well over a decade and can't remember even a single instance where I inadvertently moved the cueball appreciably.

- Steve

 

[Cuebacca]

did I understand it right that these are future changes/additions to current WPA rules?

Bob, could you also share your opinion on my described situaton? The cue was not moving along it's axis, my partner just touched the top of cb with the edge of his tip. I wonder if it is present in rules of play already (striking forward or along cue's axis) or is intended to be included; can't check the rules myself now.

Vahmurka, as I mentioned early in this thread, this is a perfectly legal stroke for an intentional foul.

I'm a bit confused actually why some people are suggesting to do other things. How hard is it to lower the tip onto the cueball, as in a masse stroke? I've been doing this for well over a decade and can't remember even a single instance where I inadvertently moved the cueball appreciably.

- Steve

Are you guys describing the same shot? It sounds like Steve's shot uses a cue that's elevated to 90 degrees and the center of the tip touches the cueball. I think the shot Vahmurka is describing has the cue parallel to the table and the side of the tip is lowered to touch the top of the cueball. Are they both legal as intentional fouls, or only the shot that Steve is describing?

 

[Steve Lipsky]

Ohhh, thanks for clearing that up cuebacca. You are correct; I was misunderstanding the initial question.

 

[Cuebacca]

You're welcome, Steve. So, based on the requirement that Bob stated, where the cue must move move along its axis, the shot that Vahmurka describes would be an illegal intentional foul? If so, what would be the penalty for doing that in 14.1? How about in 1-Pocket?