Interesting article on over-training

[boogieman]

I thought this article was worth sharing. Pool isn't as physical as running, but we can easily become overtaxed mentally, or for those of us without perfect bodies you can really overdo it in pool. Sometimes it can be hard to realize we've overdone it, the game is interesting and it's easy to just keep plugging away. https://www.outsideonline.com/health/training-performance/why-you-should-train-less/

I imagine most pool players can relate.

I've been through periods of just playing constantly and it gets to the point the game isn't enjoyable. Lately I've only been playing long sets a couple times a week. I enjoy the game more and feel I play better as long as I take the time to get warmed up.

Are there any general fun practice activities that might take 30 minutes or so, just to keep improving but without beating oneself up? I know that the pros practice for an eternity every day, but that's just not realistic for many if you have a day job and want some semblance of normality in your life.

Like, best bang for your buck practice routines or I hate to call them this, but drills?

 

[FranCrimi]

I think that article speaks for a very small group of people. Most people stop way short of the training time that would really help push them to the next level. We see it here all the time --- players complaining about why they can't improve, when they clearly haven't put in enough time. But they think they have.

 

[a1712]

I think that article speaks for a very small group of people. Most people stop way short of the training time that would really help push them to the next level. We see it here all the time --- players complaining about why they can't improve, when they clearly haven't put in enough time. But they think they have.

What is the ideal amount of time? Brian.

 

[FranCrimi]

What is the ideal amount of time? Brian.

As much as you can spare. If you practice for 2 hours and then say, okay, that's enough for today, even though you have more time available, you may be missing out on a major breakthrough in your game. If you can spare the time to play at least 4 hours straight with maybe a short break but not much.... you may cross a threshold that you weren't able to cross during the first 2 hours. With each hour you practice, your mind and body go through changes. If you never practice past 2 hours, how will you know what happens after the 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6 hour?

 

[3kushn]

As much as you can spare. If you practice for 2 hours and then say, okay, that's enough for today, even though you have more time available, you may be missing out on a major breakthrough in your game. If you can spare the time to play at least 4 hours straight with maybe a short break but not much.... you may cross a threshold that you weren't able to cross during the first 2 hours. With each hour you practice, your mind and body go through changes. If you never practice past 2 hours, how will you know what happens after the 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6 hour?

This kinda sorta ties into the older thread titled: "When do you play your best." or something like that

I'm too old to be ambitious but when practicing, I don't start really Learning till after about hour 2.
At that point, I've worked out all the kinks (that I know of) in my fundamentals, but I think more importantly, my rhythm and timing is working to my satisfaction.

 

[Bob Jewett]

What is the ideal amount of time? Brian.

To add to what Fran said, how good do you want to be? If you want to play a little better than your friends at the bar on Friday night, half an hour a week should be fine. If you want to raise your FargoRate from 500 to 600 in the next year you have to eliminate something like half your mistakes. That could easily take 20 hours a week. Some pro players put in 40 or more.

The other part is how you practice. When was the last time you spent half an hour on a single shot or type of shot? For SVB, I'll bet it was within the past week.

In any case, if your attention and focus wander, the practice time will not be of much use.

 

[a1712]

I know a bunch of guys who THINK they practice all the time. They'll shoot every single day, but I never see them practice, ever. Brian.

 

[FranCrimi]

This kinda sorta ties into the older thread titled: "When do you play your best." or something like that

I'm too old to be ambitious but when practicing, I don't start really Learning till after about hour 2.
At that point, I've worked out all the kinks (that I know of) in my fundamentals, but I think more importantly, my rhythm and timing is working to my satisfaction.

Yes, I think for a lot of us it takes the first two hours to get out of our own way. The only time that changes is when you're in dead stroke --- when you've put in the time and you're playing great. Usually, at that point all you need is a warmup before playing. That's when it's time to enjoy the fruits of your hard work. Then later, it's back to the drawing board again.

 

[BlueRaider]

To add to what Fran said, how good do you want to be? If you want to play a little better than your friends at the bar on Friday night, half an hour a week should be fine. If you want to raise your FargoRate from 500 to 600 in the next year you have to eliminate something like half your mistakes. That could easily take 20 hours a week. Some pro players put in 40 or more.

The other part is how you practice. When was the last time you spent half an hour on a single shot or type of shot? For SVB, I'll bet it was within the past week.

In any case, if your attention and focus wander, the practice time will not be of much use.

I recently went to the pool room every day for a week for about two hours per visit. During that time, I shot nothing but vertical axis, medium distance straight-ins. I thought I had good mechanics and a good pre-shot routine going into the "experiment," but shooting a few thousand of these in a short time period showed me where I could improve (and not just on these shots, but on all shots). It was honestly one of the most productive weeks I've ever had practicing pool.

 

[BC21]

I know a bunch of guys who THINK they practice all the time. They'll shoot every single day, but I never see them practice, ever. Brian.

This is the biggest problem I see. Players are told that if they want to get better they have to put in more table time. This is partly true, but it's not that simple. Players shouldn't automatically, and incorrectly, associate skill development/improvement with more table time.

Basically all they're doing is spending more time repeating the things they're currently doing wrong, or things they're already good at doing, rather than actually working on improving specific skills or fundamentals that would help them improve their game overall.

When it comes to developing skills or talents, research has proven that goal-oriented practice is much more effective than time-oriented practice. Bob Jewett mentioned 20 hours a week. That's a good, realistic number, plenty enough time for improvement, considering how you spend that 20 hours, how you divvy up that time.

Forcing yourself to practice 3 hours straight every day is typically not the best use of time. After about an hour (usually less than an hour), most people will just be beating in the time, not really focusing on what needs attention.

A more effective method, rather than setting a timeframe and watching the clock, is to set a goal that focuses on a specific skill or trouble area with your game. The goal should be hard to reach, but not so hard that it seems impossible.

Your goal might be to successfully repeat a certain shot or stroke 10 times in a row. If you hit the goal in 5 minutes, it was too easy. Set the goal higher and do it again. It should be difficult, just barely outside your reach, a goal that you can hit within 20 or 30 minutes of pushing yourself. When you hit the goal, that specific session is over. Take a break and give your brain some time to process what you just did. Come back to the table a while later and either do it again or work on something else.

If you insist on being a clock watcher (time-oriented practice), then at least break up your time into segments. 2 or 3 hours of daily practice would then be several 30 minute sessions. A session could be focused on repetition or on reaching a defined goal as described above. Repetition could involve stepping into the shot line, focusing on foot placement and body position each time, doing it deliberately, slowy, paying attention to how everything feels and looks. After the session, take a break before starting another session.

The break between sessions can be 10 or 15 minutes, or several hours. It really depends on whether or not you're home or at a place where you're paying table time. During the breaks, leave the table and do something unrelated to pool. Seriously, this will allow your brain to reset, so when you come back to the table you'll be ready to grow and work a little more.

Damn...sorry so long. Didn't realize.

 

[Zerksies]

The people that are going to suck this up is the low level Apa player that plays league night and maybe if lucky 20 minutes of other time a week. And they are going to use the excuse of I’m paying too much And it’s hurting my game. And that is far from the fact.

 

[FranCrimi]

This is the biggest problem I see. Players are told that if they want to get better they have to put in more table time. This is partly true, but it's not that simple. Players shouldn't automatically, and incorrectly, associate skill development/improvement with more table time.

Basically all they're doing is spending more time repeating the things they're currently doing wrong, or things they're already good at doing, rather than actually working on improving specific skills or fundamentals that would help them improve their game overall.

When it comes to developing skills or talents, research has proven that goal-oriented practice is much more effective than time-oriented practice. Bob Jewett mentioned 20 hours a week. That's a good, realistic number, plenty enough time for improvement, considering how you spend that 20 hours, how you divvy up that time.

Forcing yourself to practice 3 hours straight every day is typically not the best use of time. After about an hour (usually less than an hour), most people will just be beating in the time, not really focusing on what needs attention.

A more effective method, rather than setting a timeframe and watching the clock, is to set a goal that focuses on a specific skill or trouble area with your game. The goal should be hard to reach, but not so hard that it seems impossible.

Your goal might be to successfully repeat a certain shot or stroke 10 times in a row. If you hit the goal in 5 minutes, it was too easy. Set the goal higher and do it again. It should be difficult, just barely outside your reach, a goal that you can hit within 20 or 30 minutes of pushing yourself. When you hit the goal, that specific session is over. Take a break and give your brain some time to process what you just did. Come back to the table a while later and either do it again or work on something else.

If you insist on being a clock watcher (time-oriented practice), then at least break up your time into segments. 2 or 3 hours of daily practice would then be several 30 minute sessions. A session could be focused on repetition or on reaching a defined goal as described above. Repetition could involve stepping into the shot line, focusing on foot placement and body position each time, doing it deliberately, slowy, paying attention to how everything feels and looks. After the session, take a break before starting another session.

The break between sessions can be 10 or 15 minutes, or several hours. It really depends on whether or not you're home or at a place where you're paying table time. During the breaks, leave the table and do something unrelated to pool. Seriously, this will allow your brain to reset, so when you come back to the table you'll be ready to grow and work a little more.

Damn...sorry so long. Didn't realize.

Some players do need an organized schedule for themselves because that's their personality. However. I watched Jeanette show up at the pool room every day during her learning years and just play --- game after game after game for hours and hours and hours against other people. Her goals weren't to accomplish a particular shot. She had a kill list of people to beat.

I'm not saying she didn't practice on her own, but I never saw her hit balls alone for more than 10 minutes at a time. She was always playing against someone, observing and studying and learning from her opponent. Sometimes that person was her teacher, but they were always playing against each other in real game situations.

So it's probably not a good idea to generalize about how people can only concentrate for a short amount of time, because some people just play all day long and they just keep getting better and better.

 

[tomatoshooter]

I had the week between Christmas and new years off and put in about 6 hours a day. Shooting and practice. It was amazing how sharp I was. Unfortunately I can't maintain that schedule.

 

[BC21]

Some players do need an organized schedule for themselves because that's their personality. However. I watched Jeanette show up at the pool room every day during her learning years and just play --- game after game after game for hours and hours and hours against other people. Her goals weren't to accomplish a particular shot. She had a kill list of people to beat.

I'm not saying she didn't practice on her own, but I never saw her hit balls alone for more than 10 minutes at a time. She was always playing against someone, observing and studying and learning from her opponent. Sometimes that person was her teacher, but they were always playing against each other in real game situations.

So it's probably not a good idea to generalize about how people can only concentrate for a short amount of time, because some people just play all day long and they just keep getting better and better.

I wasn't generalizing. I was simply stating what research has shown when it comes to developing skills and talents. My long post was strictly geared toward skill development, learning the intricacies of the stroke, stance and aiming elements of the game. That stuff is best learned in short practice sessions, where the player's focus is 100% goal-oriented.

Actually playing the game against opponents, for as many hours as you can, definitely has benefits. It allows the player to practice numerous things at once, rather than working on one specific skill that needs developed. Playing against other players provides both practice and experience at the same time. The player can work on strategy, PSR/consistency, dealing with pressure and status anxiety, confidence, etc... These things are best developed through actual play, which involves time-oriented sessions rather than specific goal-oriented sessions.

However, if a player thinks all they have to do is play a several hours a day in order to develop the skills needed to beat better players, they will likely spend years doing that, only to never reach the level of play they desire. Alone time on a table, or individual time with a good instructor, where the player can work on specific weaknesses in short little practice sessions, will boost your overall game a lot faster. Without that, the road to improvement could be quite long and bumpy.

 

[FranCrimi]

I wasn't generalizing. I was simply stating what research has shown when it comes to developing skills and talents. My long post was strictly geared toward skill development, learning the intricacies of the stroke, stance and aiming elements of the game. That stuff is best learned in short practice sessions, where the player's focus is 100% goal-oriented.

Actually playing the game against opponents, for as many hours as you can, definitely has benefits. It allows the player to practice numerous things at once, rather than working on one specific skill that needs developed. Playing against other players provides both practice and experience at the same time. The player can work on strategy, PSR/consistency, dealing with pressure and status anxiety, confidence, etc... These things are best developed through actual play, which involves time-oriented sessions rather than specific goal-oriented sessions.

However, if a player thinks all they have to do is play a several hours a day in order to develop the skills needed to beat better players, they will likely spend years doing that, only to never reach the level of play they desire. Alone time on a table, or individual time with a good instructor, where the player can work on specific weaknesses in short little practice sessions, will boost your overall game a lot faster. Without that, the road to improvement could be quite long and bumpy.

Interesting, but that's not what I saw during the 30 years I spent in pool rooms. The ones who eventually excelled, played hours and hours on end against other players during their formative years. They did practice alone, but usually infrequently, and when they did practice, it was usually marathon sessions of several hours at a time working on a particular thing.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Interesting, but that's not what I saw during the 30 years I spent in pool rooms. The ones who eventually excelled, played hours and hours on end against other players during their formative years. They did practice alone, but usually infrequently, and when they did practice, it was usually marathon sessions of several hours at a time working on a particular thing.

At the PBIA/ACS Instructors' Summit in Quincy this past week, I heard a related story.

There was a tournament in Las Vegas on 7-foot tables. SVB was not satisfied with the way he was breaking. A ref/TD went down to check out the tournament room about 7 in the morning. Shane was there with a helper. The helper would rack and Shane would break. In the mean time the helper had gone to the next table to rack. Shane followed the helper around the tables, breaking, breaking, breaking. He had been doing that since about 3:30. He continued to do it after the TD left.

Some people are capable of spending hours on a single task without losing attention. It's a talent. Another of those people is Raymond Ceulemans who has said that his family and friends were driven to distraction by how long he spent practicing single shots. He also played about twice as well as everybody else at the time.

 

[BC21]

Interesting, but that's not what I saw during the 30 years I spent in pool rooms. The ones who eventually excelled, played hours and hours on end against other players during their formative years. They did practice alone, but usually infrequently, and when they did practice, it was usually marathon sessions of several hours at a time working on a particular thing.

I'm not saying the old-school method of beating in hour after hour each day doesn't work. Plenty of great players did exactly that, including you, I suppose. But that doesn't change the fact that all the studies done on skill and talent development over the last few decades describe a more efficient and more effective way of learning. And that goes for hand-eye coordination skills that require muscle memory, as well as simple things like studying for a school exam.

 

[FranCrimi]

I'm not saying the old-school method of beating in hour after hour each day doesn't work. Plenty of great players did exactly that, including you, I suppose. But that doesn't change the fact that all the studies done on skill and talent development over the last few decades describe a more efficient and more effective way of learning. And that goes for hand-eye coordination skills that require muscle memory, as well as simple things like studying for a school exam.

I don't consider playing a lot as 'old school.' It's how you get really great at something. You have to do it a lot. You have to completely immerse yourself in it. Two hours a day will not get you past mediocre.

I remember playing in WPBA tournaments where Saturday on the losers side was an all day affair. I remember once at a WPBA stop in Rochester NY I lost my first match and played all day on Saturday, match after match from 10 AM to 2. AM. Freddie Agnir was there. He'll confirm my story. I fought my way back, match after match and finished 5th that event. Imagine if I couldn't concentrate for more than two hours? Ha! I doubt I'd make it to the second match that day if that were the case.

 

[BC21]

I don't consider playing a lot as 'old school.' It's how you get really great at something. You have to do it a lot. You have to completely immerse yourself in it. Two hours a day will not get you past mediocre.

I remember playing in WPBA tournaments where Saturday on the losers side was an all day affair. I remember once at a WPBA stop in Rochester NY I lost my first match and played all day on Saturday, match after match from 10 AM to 2. AM. Freddie Agnir was there. He'll confirm my story. I fought my way back, match after match and finished 5th that event. Imagine if I couldn't concentrate for more than two hours? Ha! I doubt I'd make it to the second match that day if that were the case.

You either aren't understanding what I'm talking about, or you just enjoy tormenting me. Lol.

I agree that playing a lot is great for your game. However, for many players, playing a lot simply means repeating the same mistakes, the same errors, going through the same flawed motions and decisions, always wondering why their improvement is so slow. All they're doing is reinforcing bad habits that keep them from improving as quickly as they could if they spent a little time fixing one little thing here and there.

Anyway, I've played in plenty of tournaments and gambling sessions that lasted anywhere from 5 hours to nearly 20 hours, non-stop playing. I have never stated that players can't keep their focus/concentration while playing the game.

You certainly wouldn't try to fix or work on a problem area in your stroke, stance, or alignment while competing in a match. That would be disastrous. Instead, you would work on that specific element in a practice session focused only on what you're wanting to fix or change or figure out.

That is the type of practice I'm talking about, purposeful practice sessions in short timeframes where you can really stay focused on every little detail involved. Seriously, it applies to tennis, golf, music, chess, academics, and anything else that requires skill development... including pool.

 

[tomatoshooter]

You certainly wouldn't try to fix or work on a problem area in your stroke, stance, or alignment while competing in a match. That would be disastrous. Instead, you would work on that specific element in a practice session focused only on what you're wanting to fix or change or figure out

I know everybody's different, but no matter how much I play, if I don't practice, my skills go off. You have to play to develop the decision making and learn to handle pressure, but I think practice is the best way to improve execution. I don't shoot one bank every rack, there's no possible way I will develop that skill as much playing games as I will if I just practice banking for half an hour.