Interesting article on over-training

[FranCrimi]

You either aren't understanding what I'm talking about, or you just enjoy tormenting me. Lol.

I agree that playing a lot is great for your game. However, for many players, playing a lot simply means repeating the same mistakes, the same errors, going through the same flawed motions and decisions, always wondering why their improvement is so slow. All they're doing is reinforcing bad habits that keep them from improving as quickly as they could if they spent a little time fixing one little thing here and there.

Anyway, I've played in plenty of tournaments and gambling sessions that lasted anywhere from 5 hours to nearly 20 hours, non-stop playing. I have never stated that players can't keep their focus/concentration while playing the game.

You certainly wouldn't try to fix or work on a problem area in your stroke, stance, or alignment while competing in a match. That would be disastrous. Instead, you would work on that specific element in a practice session focused only on what you're wanting to fix or change or figure out.

That is the type of practice I'm talking about, purposeful practice sessions in short timeframes where you can really stay focused on every little detail involved. Seriously, it applies to tennis, golf, music, chess, academics, and anything else that requires skill development... including pool.

What am I missing in your comments? Didn't you say "short little practice sessions"? That's what I'm disagreeing with. Didn't you say we can't concentrate for long periods of time? I'm disagreeing with that also. What happens to us in hours 4, 5 and 6 during a marathon practice session is pretty remarkable. I wouldn't want anyone to miss out on that.

I'm saying that for most players, it takes the first 2 hours of practice to get out of our own way, structured or not. I'm speaking from both personal experience and years of observing other players. So yes, the experts aren't exactly right about this. They need to get out of the lab and into real life. Studies and other theories are often proven wrong. We don't have to believe them just because they say so.

 

[BC21]

What am I missing in your comments? Didn't you say "short little practice sessions"? That's what I'm disagreeing with. Didn't you say we can't concentrate for long periods of time? I'm disagreeing with that also. What happens to us in hours 4, 5 and 6 during a marathon practice session is pretty remarkable. I wouldn't want anyone to miss out on that.

I'm saying that for most players, it takes the first 2 hours of practice to get out of our own way, structured or not. I'm speaking from both personal experience and years of observing other players. So yes, the experts aren't exactly right about this. They need to get out of the lab and into real life. Studies and other theories are often proven wrong. We don't have to believe them just because they say so.

I'm referring to real-life learning observations. And the studies I've mentioned have involved real-life athletes, musicians, students, etc... Most people, and that includes most pool players, don't maintain full focus and dedication for very long when trying to learn a complicated or multifaceted skill, especially after an hour or so of struggling to get it.

With that said, I play a couple of days per week for 4 to 5 hours each time, either playing races with a friend or gambling with somebody. That's not practice, other than the fact that it builds upon my experience and level of consistency. Of course it's practice if you and your friend discuss shot options and offer each other advice and redos on shots here and there. Other than that, playing pool is primarily performance. We are performing the skills we have already learned and developed. Of course, the more we perform, the better we get at it. That's the power of repetition. So, unless I'm actually working or focusing on a particular element of my game, I wouldn't say playing pool is "practicing".

I believe most of the time, not just for me but for most players, when we're playing pool ... we're just playing pool. Of course that has benefits also, but it's not the same as targeted/purposeful practice, where we narrow in and work on one known area of trouble or inconsistency. It is this type of practice that I am saying is best done in short, goal-oriented sessions, rather than multiple hour time-oriented sessions.

If a player can keep their initial focus high for an hour or more (not when playing the game, but when working/practicing on one specific element of their game), then that's great. But for the vast majority who get frustrated or bored after about 30 minutes of trying something new or difficult, spending anymore time than that is a waste of time.

 

[Wayne Crimi]

It seems to me the more you play the faster your development will occur and the higher the ulitmate peak will probably be, but there's a place for setting aside some of that time to work on specific shots, speciifc position shots and your form/technqiue where you know you have weaknesses within that.

As to how many hours of practice each session should be and how many hours you should play overall, that's probably an individual thing.

I know that in my practice sessions alone I start losing concentration after about 60-90 minutes and am probably doing more harm than good to continue. But I can last longer playing a game. I played a 14 houir session once and was playing as well as I ever played in hours 12-13 but was exhausted by the last hour and started falling apart. My best pattern has been to pratice alone for 60-90 minutes early in the day, rest and freshen up mentally, and then play again later. The second session (game or practice alone) would be sharp more often than not because I had some good practice underneath me but was mentally fresh.

 

[BlueRaider]

It seems to me the more you play the faster your development will occur and the higher the ulitmate peak will probably be, but there's a place for setting aside some of that time to work on specific shots, speciifc position shots and your form/technqiue where you know you have weaknesses within that.

As to how many hours of practice each session should be and how many hours you should play overall, that's probably an individual thing.

I know that in my practice sessions alone I start losing concentration after about 60-90 minutes and am probably doing more harm than good to continue. But I can last longer playing a game. I played a 14 houir session once and was playing as well as I ever played in hours 12-13 but was exhausted by the last hour and started falling apart. My best pattern has been to pratice alone for 60-90 minutes early in the day, rest and freshen up mentally, and then play again later. The second session (game or practice alone) would be sharp more often than not because I had some good practice underneath me but was mentally fresh.

I used to do this a lot when I lived in an apartment that had a table in the rec area.

I'd go to the pool room during my lunch hour (or two) and work on stuff. Then I'd have a few things running through my head the rest of the day about certain shots or mechanics. Later that night, I'd head down to the rec room pool table for another 30 minutes to an hour to re-test a few things I'd worked on and experiment on things I hadn't quite worked out yet.

It was always really effective because I'd usually be chomping at the bit to get back down to the table at night to work on things I wasn't quite satisfied with yet from my daytime practice session. Energy and enthusiasm are must-haves for productive practice, IMO. If I stayed that extra amount of time on the table at the pool room, I I think I would have been too mentally fatigued to make the same progress.

 

[boogieman]

I appreciate the discussion and info. I thought it was an interesting article, though it doesn't really touch on my issue.

I can play for hours, but I lose focus quickly during practice. I've tried working on it and building extended focus, but it's slow (if any) progress. I have attention deficit disorder so focus is odd. Laser for hours if it's interesting to me or nothing. Practice is crucial but I have yet to find a way to make it interesting for long periods. Keeping score, progressive practice, etc.

After about 15-20 minutes of actual practice, I might as well go mow the lawn. Interest level drops to non existent and I find myself getting lazy or just pissing around and juicing the CB on normal shots that don't require it and shooting "trick shots."

If I'm in a set, even a long one, like race to 20, or multiple races to 20 I can maintain focus, no money needs be involved.

I debated medication for it, but honestly the only thing in life that suffers is focus during practice. I don't really want to be on stimulants just to make practice more interesting. That seems like a lose lose situation. I just settle for 15 minute practice sessions then go on with something else. It helps to have a table at home. Many days I might go downstairs several times but never for very long unless it's a game, then it can be for hours and hours.

 

[bbb]

I appreciate the discussion and info. I thought it was an interesting article, though it doesn't really touch on my issue.

I can play for hours, but I lose focus quickly during practice. I've tried working on it and building extended focus, but it's slow (if any) progress. I have attention deficit disorder so focus is odd. Laser for hours if it's interesting to me or nothing. Practice is crucial but I have yet to find a way to make it interesting for long periods. Keeping score, progressive practice, etc.

After about 15-20 minutes of actual practice, I might as well go mow the lawn. Interest level drops to non existent and I find myself getting lazy or just pissing around and juicing the CB on normal shots that don't require it and shooting "trick shots."

If I'm in a set, even a long one, like race to 20, or multiple races to 20 I can maintain focus, no money needs be involved.

I debated medication for it, but honestly the only thing in life that suffers is focus during practice. I don't really want to be on stimulants just to make practice more interesting. That seems like a lose lose situation. I just settle for 15 minute practice sessions then go on with something else. It helps to have a table at home. Many days I might go downstairs several times but never for very long unless it's a game, then it can be for hours and hours.

seems you are a testimony to 15-20 minute practice sessions
focusing on one skill
then take a break

 

[BC21]

I appreciate the discussion and info. I thought it was an interesting article, though it doesn't really touch on my issue.

I can play for hours, but I lose focus quickly during practice. I've tried working on it and building extended focus, but it's slow (if any) progress. I have attention deficit disorder so focus is odd. Laser for hours if it's interesting to me or nothing. Practice is crucial but I have yet to find a way to make it interesting for long periods. Keeping score, progressive practice, etc.

After about 15-20 minutes of actual practice, I might as well go mow the lawn. Interest level drops to non existent and I find myself getting lazy or just pissing around and juicing the CB on normal shots that don't require it and shooting "trick shots."

If I'm in a set, even a long one, like race to 20, or multiple races to 20 I can maintain focus, no money needs be involved.

I debated medication for it, but honestly the only thing in life that suffers is focus during practice. I don't really want to be on stimulants just to make practice more interesting. That seems like a lose lose situation. I just settle for 15 minute practice sessions then go on with something else. It helps to have a table at home. Many days I might go downstairs several times but never for very long unless it's a game, then it can be for hours and hours.

You are not abnormal or alone in this. What you've described is exactly what studies have shown, that most people tend to lose focus within 30min.

Making your practice session more like a game or a challenge can help, but it's important to realize when when your focus begins to fade. And that's when it's best to take a break and get away from the table for a while, then return later and try some more.

 

[tomatoshooter]

You are not abnormal or alone in this. What you've described is exactly what studies have shown, that most people tend to lose focus within 30min.

Making your practice session more like a game or a challenge can help, but it's important to realize when when your focus begins to fade. And that's when it's best to take a break and get away from the table for a while, then return later and try some more.

How important is laser focus in practice anyway? I can certainly understand the benefits of condition yourself to be 100% focused when your bridge hand touches the cloth but as long as I'm not actually practicing bad mechanics I will still be building good muscle memory. Maybe this is what is holding me back, but I'm rarely a focused during practice as in a match. I don't suggest practicing when distracted.

I guess another question is about the nature of focus. For me, pool focus is about the absence of non pool thoughts at least as much as focusing a laser on the game. I'm still trying to find the balance but when I'm shooting well there's not a lot of mental effort. I think it's like driving a manual transmission, I'm not thinking about being smooth with the clutch and the revs, it's happening on a subconscious level.

This may also depend on what I'm practicing. I'm usually practicing repetitive shots and trying to refine my execution, the decision making part of the game still needs focus.

 

[BC21]

How important is laser focus in practice anyway? I can certainly understand the benefits of condition yourself to be 100% focused when your bridge hand touches the cloth but as long as I'm not actually practicing bad mechanics I will still be building good muscle memory. Maybe this is what is holding me back, but I'm rarely a focused during practice as in a match. I don't suggest practicing when distracted.

I guess another question is about the nature of focus. For me, pool focus is about the absence of non pool thoughts at least as much as focusing a laser on the game. I'm still trying to find the balance but when I'm shooting well there's not a lot of mental effort. I think it's like driving a manual transmission, I'm not thinking about being smooth with the clutch and the revs, it's happening on a subconscious level.

This may also depend on what I'm practicing. I'm usually practicing repetitive shots and trying to refine my execution, the decision making part of the game still needs focus.

During your repetitive shot practice, do you set a goal to execute a certain amount of successful shots in row? If so, is the goal easy or does it take a while to finally achieve?

What I'm getting at is this: If it's challenging, you'll really have to bear down to accomplish it. That's what I mean by "focus". You have to really focus on how the shot feels and looks during execution. By "feels" I mean how the stroke feels and how the cue feels when the tip strikes the cb. This helps tie your muscle memory to that specific shot.

A good practice session should force us to push ourselves to the edge of our current limits, else we are not really expanding our limits. In other words, we're just repeating things that we're already good at, not exactly stepping into new boundaries. Repetition is great, but it's best when you have to work extra hard to achieve a certain goal in the process.

 

[tomatoshooter]

During your repetitive shot practice, do you set a goal to execute a certain amount of successful shots in row? If so, is the goal easy or does it take a while to finally achieve?

What I'm getting at is this: If it's challenging, you'll really have to bear down to accomplish it. That's what I mean by "focus". You have to really focus on how the shot feels and looks during execution. By "feels" I mean how the stroke feels and how the cue feels when the tip strikes the cb. This helps tie your muscle memory to that specific shot.

A good practice session should force us to push ourselves to the edge of our current limits, else we are not really expanding our limits. In other words, we're just repeating things that we're already good at, not exactly stepping into new boundaries. Repetition is great, but it's best when you have to work extra hard to achieve a certain goal in the process.

I mostly just shoot a fixed number of shots, my pockets hold seven so I'll do that on each side. Or I'll set up two object balls and go back and forth between them for fifteen minutes. I stopped counting because I was constantly calculating the percentages in my head and getting distracted and frustrated.

Bearing down? To me, that suggests a conscious effort and the more I shut down my conscious mind, the better I shoot.

I read of an experiment. They had two groups of people, both without experience. They told one group "you have an hour, make me the best clay pot you can." They told the other group "you have an hour, make me as many clay pots as you can." The second group wound up making better pots.

There are times when my practice more closely resembles the more conscious effort I think you are describing, really examining how the shot feels, etc. Those sessions are actually relatively brief, but my practice is never just mindlessly hitting balls. Which is still kind of fun. I like the challenge, I like the competition, I like putting money in my pocket, but it's also important to just enjoy rolling balls into holes.

I think there is a bit of a tradeoff between the super focused practice and a more laissez faire approach. I may get more improvement per shot with maximum focus, but I'm cooked after 50 shots, or I can pace myself and shoot hundreds of shots. And I don't smash my cue. It's wind sprints versus a mile.

I gotta go wear out the practice table, talk to you later!

 

[tomatoshooter]

So, in my previous post I made a comparison between short intense practice vs longer less focused sessions and wind sprints vs running a mile. Now I'm thinking about the benefits of high intensity interval training. I'm going to try to incorporate some brief sessions of more difficult drills into my practice. I'm not sure what form it will take but I need to see and process all the possibilities on the table more easily. I'm pretty happy with how I'm striking the ball right now, I lose games because my shooting cant overcome the sub optimal decision making.

 

[FranCrimi]

So, in my previous post I made a comparison between short intense practice vs longer less focused sessions and wind sprints vs running a mile. Now I'm thinking about the benefits of high intensity interval training. I'm going to try to incorporate some brief sessions of more difficult drills into my practice. I'm not sure what form it will take but I need to see and process all the possibilities on the table more easily. I'm pretty happy with how I'm striking the ball right now, I lose games because my shooting cant overcome the sub optimal decision making.

Why are your longer sessions less focused?

 

[tomatoshooter]

Why are your longer sessions less focused?

Limited mental capacity and patience. I can't maintain the same level of focus for several hours as I can for 15 minutes. I don't usually struggle with focus on games and tournaments so I don't think a slightly more casual approach is hurting me. Although more focused practice could help in matches, the familiarity of hitting hundreds of shots is also very beneficial.

I think I may also be describing things differently. When I'm playing my best, I don't feel focused as much as I feel like I'm mentally out of the way. Those thousands of shots on the practice table have burned into my subconscious and my body knows what to do. It feels effortless, actively engaging my brain tends to ruin the whole thing. When I think of focus, I am associating it with an actual effort, like starting at a chess board and trying to imagine the various moves and counters. If I don't focus then, I don't see myself opening up a lane for my opponent's bishop.

How would you describe the ideal mental state? I don't think we are that far apart but perhaps I am describing things poorly.

 

[FranCrimi]

Limited mental capacity and patience. I can't maintain the same level of focus for several hours as I can for 15 minutes. I don't usually struggle with focus on games and tournaments so I don't think a slightly more casual approach is hurting me. Although more focused practice could help in matches, the familiarity of hitting hundreds of shots is also very beneficial.

I think I may also be describing things differently. When I'm playing my best, I don't feel focused as much as I feel like I'm mentally out of the way. Those thousands of shots on the practice table have burned into my subconscious and my body knows what to do. It feels effortless, actively engaging my brain tends to ruin the whole thing. When I think of focus, I am associating it with an actual effort, like starting at a chess board and trying to imagine the various moves and counters. If I don't focus then, I don't see myself opening up a lane for my opponent's bishop.

How would you describe the ideal mental state? I don't think we are that far apart but perhaps I am describing things poorly.

Ah okay, I get it now. I think you may be equating focus with being conscious as opposed to a back and forth flow of conscious and subconscious behavior. That balanced back and forth between the two is what I would consider to be the ideal mental state. Alpha brain waves are usually present during that time which encourage more of a relaxed state. I think that's why long sessions work well for some players, because they eventually start to relax and alpha brain waves appear and then you have that back and forth going on. It's hard to bring it on right from the start.

 

[tomatoshooter]

It's hard to bring it on right from the start

A lot of times I'll be at home warming up for a tournament, planning on leaving at 6:30. We'll, I'm shooting like poo-poo so I might as well stay at home and practice. Wouldn't you know it, at 6:45 it's like a switch has been flipped and the balls suddenly know what they are supposed to do. It's like going from seven year Olds playing pop Warner to Tom Brady and Randy Moss.