Interesting construction technique

[bandido]

I would guess these cues are only merrywidows or flat bottomed points? When you say proved otherwise do you mean they warp at the finger joint or end of the wrap?

Tracy

Flat bottomed that terminates hidden under the wrap. The finger joint is still a good 2 inches below the point where the wrap and forearm meets.

 

[bandido]

Why do all of these production makers do this? It doesn't make sense to me.

Thanks,

Jon

It actually hastens production as the board can be finger jointed before they're cut into 5/4 squares, turned then CNC inlayed all in a production line.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I will be making a tenon on the forearm and installing a new handle. I will be able to do the repair very easily, with no refinishing necessary.

I have never done a repair like this and I'm curious as to how you will hold the cue. There will be no room for error because you won't be able to take a "clean up" pass over the entire length of the cue after the repair is made. So if the tennons are just slightly off, the cue could easily end up with 3 axes that wouldn't be in line with each other: the front, the handle, and the butt cap.

When I do joint work the cue is long enough that it passes all the way through the spindle where I have a 4 jaw chuck attached at the left end. This allows me to adjust the runout at both ends of the spindle. But in this case, the wood is to short to pass through, so you can only indicate the end that sticks out of the chuck/collet.

Thanks,

Nick

 

[Fred Agnir]

Kinda like Balibushka did isn't it?
Moved the "A" joint back under the wrap where the wood was thicker.
Who made that cue, Sheldon?

Balabushka did have the A joint under the wrap on his earlier cues, but he didn't do a finger joint. On his ring-decorated cues, the A-joint was not under the wrap.

Fred

 

[Fred Agnir]

That's a Joss.
I believe Bushka made the wrap start a little higher on the full-splice blanked cues

I think it's more accurate to say that if he had an A-joint on a full-splice short blank, he would put the A-joint farther down (i.e., it would end up under the normal wrap) where the butt was thicker if he didn't have to put a decorative ring. He didn't simply move the wrap up over the A-joint.

Fred

 

[Sheldon]

I have never done a repair like this and I'm curious as to how you will hold the cue. There will be no room for error because you won't be able to take a "clean up" pass over the entire length of the cue after the repair is made. So if the tennons are just slightly off, the cue could easily end up with 3 axes that wouldn't be in line with each other: the front, the handle, and the butt cap.

When I do joint work the cue is long enough that it passes all the way through the spindle where I have a 4 jaw chuck attached at the left end. This allows me to adjust the runout at both ends of the spindle. But in this case, the wood is to short to pass through, so you can only indicate the end that sticks out of the chuck/collet.

Easy! stick a shaft on the forearm, that way have something coming out the back of the lathe to true up on. Cut the tenon, then install a NEW full length handle. Put the newly assembled cue between centers, and indicate at the A joint, moving the center at the handle end slightly if neccesary. Cut the new handle down to size, then tenon the end for the buttsleeve. (which you carefully bored and cut off of the old handle)

I use a similar technique for new forearms, I drill and tap the narrow end 5/16-18, face it between centers and then attatch it to a shaft with a small piece of threaded rod. This way, I can be sure the forearm is running perfectly true. I might not use this method if I was going to put a 5/16 pin in the cue later, I like to install the pin LAST and might not entirely trust the original hole. I made a dead center that I can stick in through the back of the lathe to hold shorter stuff, but it is not as true as I would like it to be due to the cheap chinese lathe I currently suffer using....

 

[blud]

glue

Where's the Glue????? If the joint would of been glued, this would of not come apart, as shown.. Maybe just broke, but it appears to have no glue. The handle is also laminated. Joss does not use laminated handles, to my knowledge. been in Dan's shop many times, never once saw any laminated handle stock. He maybe be using it now. About a year ago, he wasn't.

blud

 

[bandido]

but it is not as true as I would like it to be due to the cheap chinese lathe I currently suffer using....

That is the main reason why I do all my work over the bed. Those lathes need fine tuning after they're set where you want them.

 

[Sheldon]

The handle is also laminated. Joss does not use laminated handles, to my knowledge. been in Dan's shop many times, never once saw any laminated handle stock. He maybe be using it now. About a year ago, he wasn't.

blud

The handle is not laminated, it is plain maple.

 

[bandido]

Where's the Glue????? If the joint would of been glued, this would of not come apart, as shown.. Maybe just broke, but it appears to have no glue.
blud

Must be a case of the glue not stronger than the wood itself. Or this is a very good example of a production cue's higher possibility of sloppy work than a custom cue. Rush, rush, put 'em together as fast as you can so you don't hold up the production line! LOL

 

[iusedtoberich]

...I made a dead center that I can stick in through the back of the lathe to hold shorter stuff, but it is not as true as I would like it to be due to the cheap chinese lathe I currently suffer using....

Thanks for the explanation about centering the cue Sheldon.

About "cheap lathes"... On my lathe, and I suspect most lathes, only the outside of the spindle is precision ground. This is necessary because of the spindle bearings. However the inside bore of the spindle is not ground or precision machined, as there is no reason it needs to be. If you can somehow mount your center from the outside of the spindle perhaps you will get better concentricity. I suppose this would be easiest if there are several inches of exposed spindle to the left of the spindle bearing that you could use as a mounting surface.

 

[blud]

my mistake

The handle is not laminated, it is plain maple.

Sheldon, I just glanced at it. Sorry for it's my mistake,sir. Those are growth rings.
blud

 

[blud]

lathes

Thanks for the explanation about centering the cue Sheldon.

About "cheap lathes"... On my lathe, and I suspect most lathes, only the outside of the spindle is precision ground. This is necessary because of the spindle bearings. However the inside bore of the spindle is not ground or precision machined, as there is no reason it needs to be. If you can somehow mount your center from the outside of the spindle perhaps you will get better concentricity. I suppose this would be easiest if there are several inches of exposed spindle to the left of the spindle bearing that you could use as a mounting surface.

Hey Guys, this is what I have done to my lathes, from the get go...

I have the inside of my spindles, ground dead on to the outside. I simply tear them down, before they are ever turned on, send the spindle to a grind shop to grind the ID parallel to the OD. Then at the same time, have a dead 60 degree center ground and made to fit the newly ground inside spindle. Re-install the spindle, and your dead on when machining the shorter stock.

The cost is about $400.00. Pretty cheap for what it does. About a day for tear down and re-build......[one day, no head-ackes].........stuff be dead on, from now on...

I have found with external fixtures, you have to re-adjust to often and when it's got to reach up inside so far, and your only holding your dead-center from the back end, [ left side end], you could have a sag within your center. It's just to far from your short work piece. Holding it up needs to be at the work pieces end.

With a dead center being about 10" long, sliding in the spindle,as deep as you need, shorty's are no problem. It's got a flat machined on the side of it, used for a thumb screw to hold it in place. Just drill and tap your spindle, 1/4"X20 thread.

You can get "CENTERED" right up to the short end. Nothing hanging out borad, that's to heavy, and could cause your part to move, inside..Balanced through out.

The only external fixtures I use, is for holding butts, and shafts sticking out. These fixtures are very short, [ about 2" over-all],and very stable, fixed to the out-board end of the spindle, by way of spindle threads, then threaded on and set with "allen set" screws..

Short collets, made of delrin, to fit all parts that might be sticking outboard.

blud

 

[Sheldon]

Hey Guys, this is what I have done to my lathes, from the get go...

I have the inside of my spindles, ground dead on to the outside. I simply tear them down, before they are ever turned on, send the spindle to a grind shop to grind the ID parallel to the OD. Then at the same time, have a dead 60 degree center ground and made to fit the newly ground inside spindle. Re-install the spindle, and your dead on when machining the shorter stock.

The cost is about $400.00. Pretty cheap for what it does. About a day for tear down and re-build......[one day, no head-ackes].........stuff be dead on, from now on...

Yeah, that sounds like an excellent plan. I actually had my spindle out a while back, I should have done it then. Ideally, I would like to have a backing plate put on the back of the spindle and then have that ground perfectly perpendicular to the spindle as well. that would allow you to mount a second chuck very accurately.

 

[Jon]

Yeah, that sounds like an excellent plan. I actually had my spindle out a while back, I should have done it then. Ideally, I would like to have a backing plate put on the back of the spindle and then have that ground perfectly perpendicular to the spindle as well. that would allow you to mount a second chuck very accurately.

Or you could just get a tool post grinder with a really looooooooooooong extension , and grind it yourself lol... but good luck.

Thanks,

Jon

P.S. I haven't tried it... but i might

 

[blud]

chucks

Yeah, that sounds like an excellent plan. I actually had my spindle out a while back, I should have done it then. Ideally, I would like to have a backing plate put on the back of the spindle and then have that ground perfectly perpendicular to the spindle as well. that would allow you to mount a second chuck very accurately.[/QUOT

Sheldon,

I have seen many differant ways for an "OUT-BOARD", centering device.
I don't like a chuck "hanging out there. To much weight and if it ever came loose. Man what a mess it would make, not only to your product, shop, and your head. Scares heck out of me.

I use some aluminum stock, bore it, thread it to fit the spindles threads, on the out isde of the spindle. If the spindle has no threads on the OD, just make your piece a "snug" slip fit, and use three set screws to hold it on the OD of the spindle. This way, your dead center will pass through the new out-borad fixture.

On the inside of it, I machine it straight,for a slip fit or thread fit.. Then I attach another piece [aluminum], with it tapered inside, then drill and tap using, 3 -10X32 bolts holding it on the threaded or slip fitted pieces out-board end.{ kinda like stacking two on top of each other}. Bore your 10X32 holes a little sloopy, so you can move the tapered piece around for alignment.

Then i make about 20 "collet bushings" out of delrin, with a taper on the outside of them. These are of various sizes to fit from 12MM up to and including large butts.

The collet bushings do a great job, holding your stock on center. It's not only easier than a large chuck, it's much safer. No twisting a TEE wrench, or looking for it. just simply, push on push off the required collet bushing.

Mount your indicater on the lathe, and dial in the out-board sleeve that's tapered.

I check mine every couple weeks or so. I haven't had to re-set it,for a couple years now.

hope this helps, or at least gives you some ideas.

blud

 

[JoeyInCali]

Or you could just get a tool post grinder with a really looooooooooooong extension , and grind it yourself lol... but good luck.

Thanks,

Jon

P.S. I haven't tried it... but i might

Or you could get an ole American-made lathe and a 6-jaw Buck Chuck.
You can get the chuck down to less than half a thou of runout and not worry about the spindle hole b/c it is dead nuts anyway.
Then make a few collets. One very useful one would be a long rod with a dead center that fits the spindle snug.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I have a similar "small fixture" design as Bluds. I have a tube about an inch long that I machined that fits into the end of my spindle with a friction fit. Its walls are about 3/16 thick. I drilled and tapped for 4 setscrews 90 degrees apart on its diameter. I stick the shaft/butt through the machine with a delrin collar that will be located under the 4 screws. Then I lightly tighten the 4 screws on the collet and adjust the runout just as one would when using a 4 jaw chuck. It is time consuming, but it works well.

Blud, I'm not quite sure how you are getting the adjustment of the tapered piece. Are you using the 3 10-32 screws like you would with a 4 jaw chuck, except with 3 instead of 4 screws of course? Also, what keeps the tapered collets locked in the aluminum piece? Are you simply "pulling" the cue to the right and then closing the main right side chuck/collet to keep the outboard collet closed?

Thanks

 

[blud]

screws

I have a similar "small fixture" design as Bluds. I have a tube about an inch long that I machined that fits into the end of my spindle with a friction fit. Its walls are about 3/16 thick. I drilled and tapped for 4 setscrews 90 degrees apart on its diameter. I stick the shaft/butt through the machine with a delrin collar that will be located under the 4 screws. Then I lightly tighten the 4 screws on the collet and adjust the runout just as one would when using a 4 jaw chuck. It is time consuming, but it works well.

Blud, I'm not quite sure how you are getting the adjustment of the tapered piece. Are you using the 3 10-32 screws like you would with a 4 jaw chuck, except with 3 instead of 4 screws of course? Also, what keeps the tapered collets locked in the aluminum piece? Are you simply "pulling" the cue to the right and then closing the main right side chuck/collet to keep the outboard collet closed?

Thanks

Hey Rich,
The 10X32's are pararllel to the spindle, and mount in the ends of the two pieces.The one threaded or slip fitted piece on the spindle, has 3 holes drilled and taped on it's out-borad end. The next one [tapered] has 3 drilled holes for it's intire lenght, with slop, so you can move this one around to fine tune it.

The collects are slipped on the shaft or butt work pieces, [ either end], and then it all slips in from the left side to the right, making the collet close in the out-board sleeve, that's tapered.


Joey,

I no longer use the buck-chucks. They are OK, but not as close as should be.

I now use [and have been for about 10 years or so], a 2-J collet system on my lathes. Spin the wheel and tighten the collet up. Real easy. No TEE wrench...Just use your hand...

A back plate and about 20 collets, along with the closer chuck, cost about $3,000.00.... Not to bad for what it does for you...


I have 3 of my lathes with this set up. All my set ups are the same, just like my center drill device, center drills all pieces the same depth.....Very important when turn cutting shafts or butts. if one is to deep, it makes the piece come out smaller than should be.

You just got to have all your parts machined to the same size, [meaning fronts, are all the same size, as well as handles]. Each front has the exact same size flat spot, as well as each handle is the same....


When turn cutting short stuff, I machine a "flat" spot on the back end of the forearm, for about 2", so when it's bored and the threads are ground, for the pins,the collets do hold it perferctly, from the 2" flat spot. I do the same on the handles. This system holds everthing perfectly...

Joey,

The trouble you will have by making a long center [ to reach up inside], is with some sort of support "inside", as you mentioned, is that the spindle not being ground the same throughtout and ground straight, the dead centers "end support", will be off at differant lenght's within the tube. Won't work....

Jon,
your idea of grinding it yourself, without removing it is good, but an expensive way to do it..

However it's much cheaper to hire it done. The du-more grinder and the long tool is very expensive.

I have a du-more grinder for making mandrels, and centers. The grinder alone without diamond wheels, was about $1,300.00..........Wheels cost me another $400.00 or so.

Send it out, a good machine shop can do it in about 5 to 6 hours.....Keep on working at building cues...

blud

 

[iusedtoberich]

Thanks for the clarification Blud.

Is the 2J collet system you have the Jacobs "rubber flex" collets? Are they like 5C collets where they only hold one size or are they expandable for a small range? I was going to get a set on eBay but decided to go with an adjust-tru chuck for now, as I only have one lathe, and that would offer me the most versatility for now.

I was also thinking about buying plastic or brass "blank" collets and machining them with an inside taper to match the outside taper of various parts of cues. This would mean you wouldn't need a separate collar between the cue and the chuck/collet to hold the cue. But since I'm only doing repair work now, every cue is different and that would mean I would have to make many collets. Do you think this method would work well on building cues, since they would all be the same size and taper? I'm talking about for holding operations near the end of the building process after the taper of the cue is cut, like installing the joint.

Thanks,

Nick