Interesting observation in an old Mosconi vs Fats video

pt109 said:
Elaborate, please.
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methinks the point Dale was making was that McGoorty was being flippant when he threw out that number.

But if you take it apart, just a bit, what he was saying was that there were 20 guys who would be happy to do the very worst thing imaginable to play Fats for money. By extension, that means there were more guys that would be willing to do something, perhaps not so disgusting, to play Fats for money. Then perhaps another level, or two, or three, until you get to the point of guys being happy to walk across the street to play Fats for money.

So in reality, it's not that there were just 20 guys, it was 20 guys that would go *way* out of their way to play Fats for money and many more that would do something less putrid but would still be happy to play.

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa said:
Mosconi's schedule across the country was filled until the day he fully retired. He had a standard appearance contract that was negotiated by Brunswick or AJAY, whatever company he was representing. Perhaps, the room in Queens wanted something extra and that's why, in that instance, Mosconi was asking for dinner and whatnot as compensation. But there is no reason to believe those were standard clauses in his contract because he appeared at the same venues all across the country, year after year. I particularly doubt that you were aware of what terms he was on with the owners of "the dozens of places" in the city since there are accounts of him playing numerous exhibitions in New York, to include an exhibition match at Julian's on 14th Street that drew a particularly large crowd.

Fats put on a few exhibitions, nothing like the thousands of shows Mosconi gave for years. The ones he did give, folks enjoyed his patter and were willing to overlook him missing most of the trick shots in his repertoire.

Lou Figueroa
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Actually, Lou, I'm very aware of what was going on with Mosconi and pool rooms in NYC at the time. I was right in the middle of it. You asked for proof and I gave it and now you're disputing it. I don't make arbitrary statements. When I post something as fact, it's because I can back it up. In this case, I was actually there to witness it. Willie may have been busy giving exhibitions up until his retirement, but not in New York City. His attitude was the reason why.
 
FranCrimi said:
Actually, Lou, I'm very aware of what was going on with Mosconi and pool rooms in NYC at the time. I was right in the middle of it. You asked for proof and I gave it and now you're disputing it. I don't make arbitrary statements. When I post something as fact, it's because I can back it up. In this case, I was actually there to witness it. Willie may have been busy giving exhibitions up until his retirement, but not in New York City. His attitude was the reason why.
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Forgive me for being dubious concerning how you would know the details of one man's business contracts with dozens of rooms in a city as large as NYC.

Lou Figueroa
 
I'm really enjoying the commentary on this thread. As a kid and even now, Willie was my pool shooting hero. In the day no one came close. Around 1965 I saw Fats give a demo while selling pool tables at Joe Ordini's in Paterson, NJ.

To Lou's point, he did miss a bunch of set up trick shots. But boy could he talk the talk while setting up the balls for another try. Then again he was hustling pretty crappy pool tables. Maybe if it was a Brunswick?

That was the difference. Talk the talk or walk the walk. Mosconi could walk those balls anywhere.
 
Buzzard II said:
I'm really enjoying the commentary on this thread. As a kid and even now, Willie was my pool shooting hero. In the day no one came close. Around 1965 I saw Fats give a demo while selling pool tables at Joe Ordini's in Paterson, NJ.

To Lou's point, he did miss a bunch of set up trick shots. But boy could he talk the talk while setting up the balls for another try. Then again he was hustling pretty crappy pool tables. Maybe if it was a Brunswick?

That was the difference. Talk the talk or walk the walk. Mosconi could walk those balls anywhere.
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Fats did have great timing and delivery.

Even I found it funny when they were playing one of their grudge matches on TV and it was Fats' turn at the table. He slowly waddled up to the table, chalking his cue and goes, "You. Da great, Willie Mooooooooooooosconi... missed a ball?!"

I don't know which was funnier: Fats' mocking tone at the table or Willie sitting in the chair looking like he was going to blow an artery.

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa said:
(responding to FranCrimi)..Forgive me for being dubious concerning how you would know the details of one man's business contracts with dozens of rooms in a city as large as NYC.

Lou Figueroa
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Boy, talk about being 'flippant' Lou.:sorry:..But you are never going to succeed at making Mosconi as well liked, or as popular as Fat's with very many knowledgable pool people!.. It was always his burning desire to 'show off' his skills, that caused him to travel the world doing exhibitions. (and pissing people off)..He would have done that, with or without the sponsorship of Brunswick!..

I've been exposed to him enough to know, that he was simply a classless, boring prima donna, his entire life!..I also question your accuracy, in saying Mosconi did more talk shows than Fat's!..Willies lack of personality, kept him at permanent 'one timer' status with the networks who ran the talk shows..Fat's always had many more offers than he could accept!..

As you said Lou, Willie was an expert at 'pouting' in public, if things didn't go his way..As hep as you are about most things pool related, I am shocked that you try to elevate WM, to anything more, than a boring savant!..Could we please have a simple, two question poll to determine a majority of peoples concept of the two...:cool:

[A]..Was Mosconi always a complete jerk, who just happened to be a very good pool player?
or ..Was Fat's simply an amusing character, who only used pool to enjoy a lavish lifestyle?

I'll take [A] for a boatload of cash!..:p ;) :thumbup:
 
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SJDinPHX said:
Boy, talk about being 'flippant' Lou.:sorry:..But you are never going to succeed at making Mosconi as well liked, or as popular as Fat's with very many knowledgable pool people!.. It was always his burning desire to 'show off' his skills, that caused him to travel the world doing exhibitions, and pissing people off!..He would have done that, with or without the sponsorship of Brunswick!..

I've been exposed to him enough to know, that he was simply a classless prima donna, his entire life!..I also question your accuracy, in saying Mosconi did more talk shows than Fat's!..Willies lack of personality, kept him at 'one timer' status with the networks who ran the talk shows..Fat's always had many more offers than he could accept!..

As hep as you are about most things pool related, I am shocked that you try to elevate WM, to anything more, than a boring savant!..Could we please have a simple, two question poll to determine a majority of peoples concept of the two...:cool:

[A]..Was Mosconi always a complete jerk, who just happened to be a very good pool player?
or ..Was Fat's simply an amusing character, who only used pool to enjoy a lavish lifestyle?

I'll take [A] for a boatload of cash!..:p ;) :thumbup:
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In no way am I trying to paint Mosconi as "well liked." He was what he was: a high strung, temperamental genius. If you liked him, he was an acquired taste.

And you are wrong about his motivation for touring and giving exhibitions: he did it to support his family. He actually had something resembling distain for the game because it just came so easy to him.

One last thing: Mosconi died in the loving care of his family. Fats died broke in a Nashville hotel.

In the game of life I would say Mosconi beat Fats (again).

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa said:
In no way am I trying to paint Mosconi as "well liked." He was what he was: a high strung, temperamental genius. If you liked him, he was an acquired taste.

And you are wrong about his motivation for touring and giving exhibitions: he did it to support his family. He actually had something resembling distain for the game because it just came so easy to him.

One last thing: Mosconi died in the loving care of his family. Fats died broke in a Nashville hotel.

In the game of life I would say Mosconi beat Fats (again).

Lou Figueroa
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I am very surprised at the callous way you compared their passings!..How do you know Mosconi died "in loving care"?..All families will claim to 'love' a patriarch when they die..Thats where the inheritance $$$ come from!..Do you think Fat's lived less of a full life than Willie, because he died broke?..I'm convinced Fats lived an infinitely happier life, than Mosconi ever dreamed of!..When the smoke cleared, I think Fatty easily won the battle for a satisfying, contented time spent on earth!

PS..I know, if I were forced to choose, which life I would have chosen!..But then, I'm not a world class pool champion, nor a broke!
..I am leaving my entire net worth, ($112.75) to charity!..I don't want my kids fighting over it!..;)

...Cocktail time, adios for now! :p
 
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lfigueroa said:
One last thing: Mosconi died in the loving care of his family. Fats died broke in a Nashville hotel.

In the game of life I would say Mosconi beat Fats (again).

Lou Figueroa
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Fata lived the last part of his life as he deserved....good hotel, dined well and surrounded
by people who thought well of him.
He had helped a man earlier in life when that guy was broke...that man became wealthy.
Fats lived as his guest til the end....
Karma came through for this man who lived on the edge.

And yes, Willie got what he deserved also...he fought for his family all his life.
 
SJDinPHX said:
I am very surprised at the callous way you compared their passings!..How do you know Mosconi died "in loving care"?..All families will claim to 'love' a patriarch when they die..Thats where the inheritance $$$ come from!..Do you think Fat's lived less of a full life than Willie, because he died broke?..I'm convinced Fats lived an infinitely happier life, than Mosconi ever dreamed of!..When the smoke cleared, I think Fatty easily won the battle for a satisfying, contented time spent on earth!

PS..I know, if I were forced to choose, which life I would have chosen!..But then, I'm not a world class pool champion, nor a broke!
..I am leaving my entire net worth, ($112.75) to charity!..I don't want my kids fighting over it!..;)

...Cocktail time, adios for now! :p
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How do I know, Dick? Because I've read what Mosconi's son and wife had to say about his life and details concerning his passing of complications of Alzheimers. As to callousness, yes, facts can appear that way. Would you prefer me to dress it up in the same way you've disparaged Mosconi in this thread? I think that would turn out a little worse for Fats, don't you?

So Mosconi was not the huggable, lovable type for most fans of the game. It does not mean that he did not have many, many friends in the industry and thousands of fans across the country who admired, in some amount of in awe, his incredible skill, and who to this day remember watching him play.

I suppose neither you nor I would have been pals with Bobby Fischer. It dan't mean we can't be fans of his genius.

Lou Figueroa
 
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pt109 said:
Fata lived the last part of his life as he deserved....good hotel, dined well and surrounded
by people who thought well of him.
He had helped a man earlier in life when that guy was broke...that man became wealthy.
Fats lived as his guest til the end....
Karma came through for this man who lived on the edge.

And yes, Willie got what he deserved also...he fought for his family all his life.
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PT, Interesting..I never knew that about Fat's final days..Care to elaborate on it, or furnish a link for further review?..Thanks
..And not to make Willie less than he was, but what man wouldn't fight for his family?
 
SJDinPHX said:
PT, Interesting..I never knew that about Fat's final days..Care to elaborate on it, or furnish a link for further review?..Thanks
..And not to make Willie less than he was, but what man wouldn't fight for his family?
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This is all second hand info, Dick.
I was at the Nashville BCA trade show in '89.
I was told the name of his benefactor, but I can't remember it......
....Fatty was telling a story once and called him for confirmation....
....the man immediately left his office and came down to support him...he loved Fats.

we took a taxi one night to go clubbing..(I like C n W)....the taxi driver raved about Fatty...
...anytime his name came up, it seemed Nashville was overjoyed to have him.

Somebody on AZ may remember this man's name......
 
lfigueroa said:
How do I know, Dick? Because I've read what Mosconi's son and wife had to say about his life and details concerning his passing of complications of Alzheimers. As to callousness, yes, facts can appear that way. Would you prefer me to dress it up in the same way you've disparaged Mosconi in this thread? I think that would turn out a little worse for Fats, don't you?

So Mosconi was not the huggable, lovable type for most fans of the game. It does not mean that he did not have many, many friends in the industry and thousands of fans across the country who admired, in some amount of in awe, his incredible skill, and who to this day remember watching him play.

I suppose neither you nor I would have been pals with Bobby Fischer. It dan't mean we can't be fans of his genius.

Lou Figueroa
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Lou, Everybody dies of something, and the ones who loved them will mourn!..My 'disparaging' remarks about Mosconi, were only
related to his personality, (or lack thereof) never to his qualities as a human being!..Whereas your obvious disdain for Fats, covered the entire spectrum of his life, and even his death! (are you sure you're not related to Deliberto or Coco? :o)..I think we have both made our positions quite clear, in this somewhat senseless debate!..I see no need to pursue it any further! :frown:

PS..Funny thing though, you should bring up Bobby Fischer!..There was another complete jerk! (personality-wise) :rolleyes: ;) :D :D
 
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pt109 said:
This is all second hand info, Dick.
I was at the Nashville BCA trade show in '89.
I was told the name of his benefactor, but I can't remember it......
....Fatty was telling a story once and called him for confirmation....
....the man immediately left his office and came down to support him...he loved Fats.

we took a taxi one night to go clubbing..(I like C n W)....the taxi driver raved about Fatty...
...anytime his name came up, it seemed Nashville was overjoyed to have him.

Somebody on AZ may remember this man's name......
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Was it maybe Morley Safer, or Harry Reasoner?..or someone from "60 minutes" fame? ..Seems to me I read something about whoever it was that did that 60 minutes interview with UJ Puckett, also later became quite enamored with Fats! :confused:

Edit;..PT, I just did a google and I see Puckett died in '92, and Fats in '96..So its very possible Reasoner may be the guy you are referring to, as Fats benefactor!
 
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This thred has been both entertaining and informative! But I got to say as a child in the 70's I've heard of fats (household name) and my dad drove me a few hrs to see him perform. While it wasn't until my teenage years of going to pool halls that I learned of Mosconi. That being said, for me personaly it was fats that made me pick up a cue, it was fats that was the ambassador of pool.
 
mvp said:
This thred has been both entertaining and informative! But I got to say as a child in the 70's I've heard of fats (household name) and my dad drove me a few hrs to see him perform. While it wasn't until my teenage years of going to pool halls that I learned of Mosconi. That being said, for me personaly it was fats that made me pick up a cue, it was fats that was the ambassador of pool.
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LOL...Take that Lou, (and Coco).. A bit of genuinely impartial middle America weighing in!...Sorry Lou, couldn't resist! :p

PS..My last post on the subject..I promise! :D
 
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SJDinPHX said:
Lou, Everybody dies of something, and the ones who loved them will mourn!..My 'disparaging' remarks about Mosconi, were only
related to his personality, (or lack thereof) never to his qualities as a human being!..Whereas your obvious disdain for Fats, covered the entire spectrum of his life, and even his death! (are you sure you're not related to Deliberto or Coco? :o)..I think we have both made our positions quite clear, in this somewhat senseless debate!..I see no need to pursue it any further! :frown:

PS..Funny thing though, you should bring up Bobby Fischer!..There was another complete jerk! (personality-wise) :rolleyes: ;) :D :D
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Personality/human being... interchangeable. What are we but the personalities we display to the world.

And yes, I purposely brought up Bobby Fischer to illustrate the fact that intelligent folks should be able to make a distinction between a man and his genius at a particular skill.

Lou Figueroa
 
SJDinPHX said:
LOL...Take that Lou, (and Coco).. A bit of genuinely impartial middle America weighing in!...Sorry Lou, couldn't resist! :p

PS..My last post on the subject..I promise! :D
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One guy? Really, lol?!

OK, Dick, I totally get that lots of folks dug Fats and his banter and that he revved them up about pool. But a lot of us got a charge out of seeing Mosconi walk into our pool room for the first time -- white hair freshly groomed, impeccably dressed in coat and tie, wing-tips burnished to a glow -- and then racking the balls, rolling out a break ball, running 28, and then sitting down and saying, "I'm ready."

New city, new joint, new table, new opponent...and he'd run 100 and then make every trick and masse shot on the first try. On to the next city.

That he made it look *so easy, so effortless* got a lot of us right where we lived and we never forgot it.

Lou Figueroa
 
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Enjoyed this thread!
Weird tidbit:
I've lost many a $5 betting that some of our young apprentices would know who Minnesota Fats was. (Not sure how I even came up with that bet)

Seems even he is fading some.

I love all the stories of them both.

They didn't know Willie either. Damn. :frown:
 
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