Interesting (to me, anyway) Rules Question

[shinobi]

I've never seen anyone try this, but would a player be permitted to consult documentation during a match to help with a shot?

For example:
-- Look at a piece of paper to refresh themselves of a diamond/kicking system
-- Watch a video on their cell phone / ipod to remind them of a shot technique
-- Any other kind of paper/video that has to do with pool

I know a player cannot receive help from anyone off the table, but if it's their own notes I'm not sure.

Are there any rules that address this? If so, please cite the rule.

If there are rules against this, there should be some concern about potential loopholes. Can someone write the diamond system numbers on their shoe? Perhaps an inlay/decal on their pool cue (of a pool table with the numbers)? Perhaps write the numbers in Futurama's alien font to disguise them?

Again, this is not something I've ever done or seen. The question just came up when I was talking to another player about some kicking systems.

 

[cuenut]

I have not heard of that, but it would be possible. I think it might be hard to consult anything like that if put on a shot clock.

 

[shinobi]

I have not heard of that, but it would be possible. I think it might be hard to consult anything like that if put on a shot clock.

Yes, I considered the time violation possibility as well, but that might be a separate matter. Someone could consult a piece of paper with diamond numbers in seconds. Watching a video on the other hand probably takes 60 seconds or more, minimum.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Section 1.3 under the BCA League rules stipulates that no equipment other than those approved listed below (I would assume a rule book is OK) unless authorized by the TD is allowed.

1.3 Player?s Use of Equipment
The equipment must meet existing WPA equipment specifications. In general, players are not permitted to introduce novel equipment into the game. The following uses, among others, are considered normal. If the player is uncertain about a particular use of equipment, he should discuss it with the tournament management prior to the start of play. The equipment must be used only for the purpose or in the manner that the equipment was intended. (See 6.15 Unsportsmanlike Conduct.)
(a) Cue Stick ? The player is permitted to switch between cue sticks during the match, such as break, jump and normal cues. He may use either a built-in extender or an add-on extender to increase the length of the stick.
(b) Chalk ? The player may apply chalk to his tip to prevent miscues, and may use his own chalk, provided its color is compatible with the cloth.
(c) Mechanical Bridges ? The player may use up to two mechanical bridges to support the cue stick during the shot. The configuration of the bridges is up to the player. He may use his own bridge if it is similar to standard bridges.
(d) Gloves ? The player may use gloves to improve the grip and/or bridge hand function.
(e) Powder ? A player is allowed to use powder in a reasonable amount as determined by the referee.

 

[shinobi]

I also thought about the "equipment" angle, but in this case is a piece of paper categorized as "equipment"? It isn't actually used at the table.

If that is illegal, how about a tattoo of the diamond system on your arm?

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Unsportsmanlike conduct (cheating by using inappropriate means) would be grounds for disqualification. Yes a piece of paper or book would qualify under this rule. Gaining an advantage by illegal means is unsportsmanlike conduct.

No different than having an ear piece with a coach at the other end telling you what to do.... illegal.

You could be disqualified for the shoe note and tattoo also.

I also thought about the "equipment" angle, but in this case is a piece of paper categorized as "equipment"? It isn't actually used at the table.

If that is illegal, how about a tattoo of the diamond system on your arm?

 

[MikeMaaen]

If you can refer to a "Winning Blackkjack" card at the casino, why not a piece of paper during a pool match.

 

[cigardave]

I believe that referring to one's own notes inbetween shots would be OK. I certainly don't see any harm in doing so... nor should it distract your opponent while it's their turn at the table.

As to watching a video on your phone in between shots... well, I'd say that's a stretch. During a time out, I'd say it's OK.

 

[Cuebacca]

If you can refer to a "Winning Blackkjack" card at the casino, why not a piece of paper during a pool match.

I think it's because the casino still has the nuts. They probably figured out that they earn more money from the good will and perception of an advantage created than they lose due to the assistance that the cards create.

That could be analogous to two people gambling. It's up to the guy who feels he has the better end of the game to decide how much he lets the other guy get away with before he puts his foot down and risks the other guy quitting on him.

In a tournament or league the analogy might not fit quite as well.

 

[shinobi]

Unsportsmanlike conduct (cheating by using inappropriate means) would be grounds for disqualification. Yes a piece of paper or book would qualify under this rule. Gaining an advantage by illegal means is unsportsmanlike conduct.

No different than having an ear piece with a coach at the other end telling you what to do.... illegal.

You could be disqualified for the shoe note and tattoo also.

Tom,
or what it's worth I think it _should_ be illegal, at least by the spirit of the rules. There doesn't appear to be a specific rule against it so far.

I'd love to hear what Jay Helfert had to say about this.

Also, how would one practically enforce it, given the ability to take an unsupervised break during your turn

 

[shinobi]

If you can refer to a "Winning Blackkjack" card at the casino, why not a piece of paper during a pool match.

It's either a rule in pool or it isn't, and a casino analogy wouldn't matter.

 

[Pushout]

It's either a rule in pool or it isn't, and a casino analogy wouldn't matter.

That would be nice, is or isn't, however in reality, that ain't necessarily so. Even with commonly played games, rules can vary depending on the region and various other things, whether it's BCA, IPT, WPA, etc. How the people in question interpret the rules. Gah, I'm getting a headache.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Another good question... what if you were the player that got DQ'd because of this 'unsportsmanlike conduct' because a ref and TD decided your little note was considered illegal?

Since you state there is NO SPECIFIC rule, how would you state your case to the referee or tournament director?

Under the present set of rules (World Standard, BCALeague, Texas Express and of course all the different amateur leagues) do you notice any kind of recourse for you to take to get a ruling overturned?

 

[shinobi]

Another good question... what if you were the player that got DQ'd because of this 'unsportsmanlike conduct' because a ref and TD decided your little note was considered illegal?

Since you state there is NO SPECIFIC rule, how would you state your case to the referee or tournament director?

Under the present set of rules (World Standard, BCALeague, Texas Express and of course all the different amateur leagues) do you notice any kind of recourse for you to take to get a ruling overturned?

That could be a whole topic of itself, I imagine. Want to start a thread? :grin-square:

 

[jay helfert]

First of all, I think there should be no cell phones in use during a match, PERIOD! Turn 'em off is all I have to say about that. As far as referring to notes on the Diamond system or whatever, I have no problem with that between turns. When it's your turn to shoot, put those notes away. Don't bring them to the table or even go back and refer to them. I tend to agree with Tom here, and would probably issue a warning the first time, with loss of game if it happens again. The third time, well you know the answer to that one. But it will never go that far.

Everything cannot be covered in the rules and sometimes a tournament official must make a decision based on what is in the best interests of the tournament, and fairness. This is what we call a "judgement" call, and I've made my share. What happens when the player on the next table bumps your cue when you are shooting. I can't call a foul on him, can I?

 

[Tennesseejoe]

I have seen billiard players with diagrams of shots taped to their stick. It would be nice for some One Pocket banks.

 

[tatcat2000]

Official BCAPL Response

Consulting notes is not permitted at any time during a match in BCAPL play.

The subject actually received considerable discussion during the review of the 2008-2009 edition of the BCAPL Rules. Although no specific language was included, it was determined that it would most likely end up being ruled as UC, or be just as likely to cause unacceptable delays while the notes were being reviewed, also resulting in penalties.

Another comment during the BCAPL discussions was that it could be considered to be similar to coaching. If Ray Martin or Tom Rossman were watching your match, you would not be allowed to ask them questions. Why should you be allowed to consult their material? (Even if you've transcribed it into notes.)

The determing factor during the discussion was one that is extremely common: where do you draw the line?

For example - if you allow a person to quickly review, even for a moment, a small card referencing a kicking system, why do you not let him take a few more seconds to review a full page of notes? And if you do that, why not a few more seconds to review a small booklet? It's easy to see where this goes - soon you're allowing as much time as the player needs to dig whatever answer they want out of a book.

The next facet of the problem is: who is to decide how much time/volume of notes is allowed? The simple fact of the matter is that it is impossible to apply consistently. Practically impossible from referee to referee in a fairly large tournament, and completely impossible from event to event.

There are only two practical options for administrative bodies - let the player do as much research as they want to, or let them do none at all. It is simply not practical to pick anything in between.

The BCAPL picked none at all. The BCAPL is also of the belief that the spirit of the game is to play with the skill level that you bring to the table - not to use a match as a practice/research/refresher/experiment period.

Consulting a rule book is permitted, but delaying a match to do so is not. If a player wishes to take enough time to check the rule book they would probably have to use a time out if one is available.

However, in BCAPL play that would not be necessary, since BCAPL rules require referees answer players questions about the rules. That includes during a match, and regardless of how the player uses the information or whether the information provided affects how they proceed with their game. BCAPL Rules 9.2.1(a)(3) and 9.2.1(c) and Applied Ruling 9.2 apply.

The BCAPL has dedicated itself to removing inconsistencies in enforcement wherever possible. It doesn't really matter which side of this - or any other issue - you prefer. (At least) in BCAPL play, you usually have the answer available to you, one way or the other, in writing and in advance. If you bother to learn the BCAPL book, then you will never be surprised during a BCAPL event.

You can probably expect to see specific language concerning the consultation of written material in the Applied Rulings of the 2009-2010 edition of the BCAPL Rules.

"...do you notice any kind of recourse for you to take to get a ruling overturned?"

In BCAPL play your recourse, including procedures and whom will make the decision, is specifically and thouroughly addressed in BCAPL Rule 9.4. In most tournaments, the TD will be the end of the line. In most league play the League Operator will be the end of the line. At BCAPL national events, Mr. Bill Stock or his designate is the end of the line.

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Senior Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net
:smile:

P.S. - Jude/all - I haven't forgotten the other thread. Will get to it as soon as I can.


* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.4.3 and 9.4.4 apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* There is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules". The BCA does not edit nor is responsible for the content of the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.

 

[gulfportdoc]

I've never seen anyone try this, but would a player be permitted to consult documentation during a match to help with a shot?

It's hard to imagine someone doing that, but I don't see anything wrong with it, nor have I ever seen a rule that would prevent it. Certainly rules covering equipment wouldn't apply to "notes".

Obviously a TD could make any decision he seemed to be proper, but there is no standardized rule on the subject. The only rule that could apply would be those governing slow play. And those are not universal, but vary by specific tour or tournament.

Doc

 

[Bill S]

rule 1.3

Section 1.3 under the BCA League rules stipulates that no equipment other than those approved listed below (I would assume a rule book is OK) unless authorized by the TD is allowed.

1.3 Player?s Use of Equipment
The equipment must meet existing WPA equipment specifications. In general, players are not permitted to introduce novel equipment into the game. The following uses, among others, are considered normal. If the player is uncertain about a particular use of equipment, he should discuss it with the tournament management prior to the start of play. The equipment must be used only for the purpose or in the manner that the equipment was intended. (See 6.15 Unsportsmanlike Conduct.)
(a) Cue Stick ? The player is permitted to switch between cue sticks during the match, such as break, jump and normal cues. He may use either a built-in extender or an add-on extender to increase the length of the stick.
(b) Chalk ? The player may apply chalk to his tip to prevent miscues, and may use his own chalk, provided its color is compatible with the cloth.
(c) Mechanical Bridges ? The player may use up to two mechanical bridges to support the cue stick during the shot. The configuration of the bridges is up to the player. He may use his own bridge if it is similar to standard bridges.
(d) Gloves ? The player may use gloves to improve the grip and/or bridge hand function.
(e) Powder ? A player is allowed to use powder in a reasonable amount as determined by the referee.

Tom, rule 1.3 that you are quoting is from the World Standardized Rules, NOT the "BCA League rules" (which are "The Official Rules of The BCA Pool League").

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Tom, rule 1.3 that you are quoting is from the World Standardized Rules, NOT the "BCA League rules" (which are "The Official Rules of The BCA Pool League").

Thanks Bill

BCA League rules are worded quite differently than the WSR.

1.3 Use of Equipment
The BCAPL reserves the right to prohibit any equipment it deems untested or inappropriate, or that has not been evaluated by the BCAPL National Office.

1. You are responsible for all equipment and accessory items you bring to the table. You may not use, or attempt to use, equipment or accessory items in a manner other than their intended use:

a. You may use only your cue stick, held in your hand or not,
to help align a shot.
b. You may use either a built-in or an add-on cue extender.
c. You may use your own chalk provided the color is compatible with the cloth.
d. You may not use more than two mechanical bridges at any one time. A bridge may only be used to support the cue stick or another bridge.
e. You may not use any item to prop up your bridge hand. You may hold chalk in your bridge hand while bridging, but the chalk may not be used to elevate your hand off the table.
f. You may not use any ball, your cue stick, the rack, or any other equipment or width-measuring device to determine if the cue ball or any object ball would fit through a gap or to judge what ball the cue ball would contact first.

2. You may not wear any electronic headgear or use any electronic device during a match. Examples include, but are not limited to:
a. Headphones, earphones, or electronic earplugs, including Bluetooth accessories, whether turned on or not. Medically required hearing aids are permitted.
b. Cell phones, pagers, or music devices. Cell phones may be worn on the belt or kept in pockets, but may not be accessed for messages or conversations at any time during a match by singles or scotch doubles players or during your game in team play. You must turn off all audible ringers and other notification tones while on the event floor. Emergency communications are permitted at any time.

3. Violation of this rule is a foul, and an unsportsmanlike conduct warning must be issued; a second violation results in loss of game; a third violation results in loss of match.