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Bavafongoul

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Has any Azer had experience transporting a cue with lots of ivory into the USA since enactment of the revised ivory ban reg?


I realize that shipping cues containing ivory overseas, and of course vice versa, is highly risk prone due to the ivory ban.
However, it's my understanding that possessing such a cue does not violate the new regulation and therefore is allowable
for travel. I just agreed to buy a very special cue that's overseas and the cue will be transported to the USA by a friend of
the seller who's coming to play in some pool tournaments.

After the cue arrives, it will be sent to a escrow agent to complete this purchase/sale. This is my "Golden Fleece" of pool cues
from a cue-maker I've only dreamed of owning......and now it's about to happen so I want this purchase to be problem free.

I'd appreciate any comments on how to avoid pitfalls or problems under the revised ivory ban when the cue is being personally
transported into the USA. Is any special certification required etc. and naturally, I'll pass along any useful information to the seller.

Thanks,

Matt B.

p.s. I posted this thread in the Main Forum today and so far no replies. Ergo, it dawned on me there'd be a better response here.
 
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My experience is a little different but I'm happy to share on how it went. In May of this year, I purchased a cue loaded with ivory from a seller located in Europe. He was coming into the US for business and we agreed that he would transport the cue with him and we would meet up locally (since the timing worked out) for me to inspect the cue and pay for the cue as well. Deal and purchase went off without a hitch. He transported the cue in a tube type case, though I'm not sure if he checked it in or was allowed to bring in on board as carry-on. No apparent issues with customs either.

Hope your deal works out for you. My guess is, if the transporter coming into the US from a more "friendly" or "welcomed" country, they would have less issues or worries. Can I take a wild guess if this is the "Prewitt" cue that was recently posted in the for sale section? ;) :thumbup:
 
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Don't need to over think at all, i buy cues all the time from the U.S and Europe(in your case i'm sure it's Germany) and shipping with ivory definitely has it's risk but not as hyped up as you think. It's risky if shipped via courier but when your transporting personally then the risk minimises drastically.

Enjoy the EP.
 
IC, thanks for sharing your experience which sounds like it went as perfect as one could hope for.
I had a hunch that there'd be more actual international travel experience with cues in this section.
All I can hope for is anything close to your experience and what Jive wrote about carrying the cue.

My cue-maker trilogy is Joel Hercek, Ed Prewitt & Danny Tibbits and if I had to pick one, it'd be Danny.
Unfortunately, his cues are so few and far between and his fancy versions are in Szamboti price range.
And Joel's spliced cues with the design, joint & my cue specs never seem to come up either, not so far.

Well, Detective ironchef, you got me and fortunately, the cue is originating from one of our closest ally nations.
Once I saw the cue specs, well, it was like an omen and I must also admit, a case of instant love at first sight.

Jive, after you got your EP cue last Fall, well, I was hypnotized by its design and knew that your cue had the
design I wanted. This EP cue weighs 18.5 ozs/12.9mm shafts & my ideal specs are 18.5 ozs/12.85mm shafts.
It was the right cue-maker, the right design and the right specs & well, I just took that as a signal to get this cue.

Matt B.
 
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Awesome! Seriously, good luck with the transaction and best wishes. That Prewitt is a BEAUTY and I was very tempted in breaking the piggy bank for chance at it. Cheers!
 
Old law

You get caught and they destroy the Cue and fine you. The old fine was $1500 but if a Cue maker wrote a statement to Customs stating when the Cue was made and made with pre ban Ivory it would only cost you $1500.
Now I think the fine is at least 5K and the Cue is not released. They impound and destroy the Cue.
The best advise is don't do it. There might be penalties greater than I have stated. Bama Cues posted the penalties up.
They are harsh.
Nick :)
 
Nick,

Thanks for the caution. I am nervous about this because of the overall uncertainty with how the ban will be enforced.
Once the cue successfully reaches the USA, it should be clear sailing with FAST_N_LOOSE handling the escrow.

Cuennoiseur is a great person to do business with and utilizing an escrow agent for the sale/purchase also helps.
Since the cue is being brought across the pond by a professional pool player, and possession of a cue with ivory of
and by itself does not violate the regulation, I am hopeful this provides a legal method for bringing the cue into the USA.

Nonetheless, there's always genuine horror stories on the risks of doing something like this and I am hoping that this
purchase doesn't go sideways as much for the seller as myself. I draw confidence from the fact that Dirk wouldn't arrange
to have someone transport the cue as personal luggage only to have it confiscated because of the new ivory regulation.
His confidence is reassuring and encouraging since he's the cue owner and I don't think he'd risk losing his Prewitt cue.

Understandably, I am keeping my fingers crossed because I know the cue's journey to me is wrought with risk and perils.
In a few weeks, I'll either be cheering from the rooftops or singing the blues and you know which outcome I'm pulling for.

Thanks,

Matt B.
 
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For someone who has jumped in on so many for sale threads about the dangers of shipping ivory in and out of the States, I think you have a nerve! Hypocrite doesn't even come close hahaha!! I know the seller of this cue well, and he is a complete gentleman, I just hope if anything goes wrong it ends up on your side Bavavongoul....
 
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I would be VERY clear about who is taking the financial risk here. Normally I would say that it won't be an issue unless the cue is insured for a huge amount raising a red flag. I probably wouldn't have put it on the forum either.
 
JB Cases said:
I would be VERY clear about who is taking the financial risk here. Normally I would say that it won't be an issue unless the cue is insured for a huge amount raising a red flag. I probably wouldn't have put it on the forum either.
Click to expand...

1000% agree!!
 
Be very careful

Hi,

It is really not worth the risk to ship ivory or be involved in a transaction whereby you are complicit as part of a deal to cross a boarder. Everything is alright until you have a problem as they say.

My friends company was fined 150,000.00 for shipping pre ban ivory to Japan.

They paid the fine because it was not worth going to court. The Feds suggested they pay the huge fine and avoid all the legal fees involved in a federal case as their best move to make. The prosecutor told them if they paid the fine and plead guilt he would not move against the employees involved with charges personally that could result in jail time. So they really had no choice when you follow logic in that decision making process.

When they got you by the balls, they know how to squeeze very hard. That's their job! And remember they all what a notch on their gun handle and want to make a name for themself.

If you buy a cue from someone in your own country and that cue was brought in before you were negotiating a deal you should be fine because you are and inocent person.

If you buy a cue from someone in your country that acted as a mule and took it across the boarder and it can be proved that you were part of a deal or conspiracy to promote that transaction you could find yourself in deep do do.

If the mule is squeezed and gives up your name all it would take is an email archive to put you in the box. Shipping a cue and getting caught the first time, paying the fine and saying I am sorry and really did not understand the laws is one thing and you could get away with a 1500.00 fine. Being caught in a conspiracy to smuggle ivory, pre ban or not can result in huge fines and possible jail time. From what has been explained by Joe Barringer the Cities Act Laws are very clear about this kinda thing.

Joe Barringer sold a loaded up cue to and undercover agent from England and the feds tore him a new A hole. Lucky Joe had deep pockets and survived the ordeal.

Government agents will give someone immunity if they flip and rat you out. They always want to go after the person who has the deepest pockets.

Forewarned is forearmed so be very careful my friends. If someone wants to sell you a cue in your country make sure that they know up front that you only buy cues in your country that you can inspect in person before making a an offer. Also make sure that in any emails you do speak directly to the fact that you only consider cues that are not in violation of any Cities Act laws.

JMO,

Rick
 
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Stupid Question: the Cue will goes directly with the plane and later will shipped to someone for escrow, okay, BUT what happened when this Person said this is not in perfect shape and the Deal went south? How the Cue can going back without risk to the Seller ( not the transporter)?
I know this Cue personal and it's perfect in my Eyes.
Only want to hear your mind.
 
Hey folks...simmer down....and I'm not a hypocrite on this either.

I have always posted that I thought the ivory ban was nothing to worry about long term and I'm not.
I recently posted the NRA will pressure Congress to revise the regulation because it affects guns too.
I have always stated I love using ivory as the material for my cue joints, ferrules, inlays & butts.

Now I have never even implied that cues can be shipped internationally without risk since the reg was enacted.
And I have never said I would stop buying cues that contained ivory and all my discussions with cue sellers,
my AZ posts and threads lucidly state my position and feelings about this matter. So the last thing I am, as
contrasted with so many others on the Forum, is hypocritical. You might not likewhat I write but I don't flip flop
and stand my ground on issues I agree or disagree with.....hypocrisy????

The cue is question is secure and the seller and I am making arrangements to handle this transaction legally
and the cue can be carried into the USA as personal property in full compliance with the regulation. The seller does
not want to risk confiscation....who would? And I don't want to risk the money...who would? So the cue arrival has
been rescheduled which is absolutely of no concern or of any consequence to anyone other the two parties involved
and the last time I checked, I am of one of them and you aren't. It's my money and someone else's cue so why r u involved?
 
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Bavafongoul said:
Hey folks...simmer down....and I'm not a hypocrite on this either.

I have always posted that I thought the ivory ban was nothing to worry about long term and I'm not.
I recently posted the NRA will pressure Congress to revise the regulation because it affects guns too.
I have always stated I love using ivory as the material for my cue joints, ferrules, inlays & butts.

Now I have never even implied that cues can be shipped internationally without risk since the reg was enacted.
And I have never said I would stop buying cues that contained ivory and all my discussions with cue sellers,
my AZ posts and threads lucidly state my position and feelings about this matter. So the last thing I am, as
contrasted with so many others on the Forum, is hypocritical. You might not likewhat I write but I don't flip flop
and stand my ground on issues I agree or disagree with.....hypocrisy????

The cue is question is secure and the seller and I am making arrangements to handle this transaction legally
and the cue can be carried into the USA as personal property in full compliance with the regulation. The seller does
not want to risk confiscation....who would? And I don't want to risk the money...who would? So the cue arrival has
been rescheduled which is absolutely of no concern or of any consequence to anyone other the two parties involved
and the last time I checked, I am of one of them and you aren't. It's my money and someone else's cue so why r u involved?
Click to expand...

You're still encouraging the smuggling of ivory into the States. Whether or not it jiggles your moral compass, it is wholly illegal.
 
fwiw many musicians have been having their instruments confiscated due to the ivory issues. this is affecting orchestras that travel. it is not 100% safe to think that an ivory laden cue is allowed to criss cross borders just because a person claims it is a personal possession. I was once detained in Germany for an hour while customs inspected several cue they thought had ivory in them. had they determined that the cues contained ivory I would have been arrested and lost $8000 in cues.
 
John,

How is it smuggling? I've had five separate conversations starting with the Dept. of the Interior to US Fish & Wildlife in Washington, DC and actually met with a person at CA Fish & Wildlife. Cues with ivory are not against the law to own This is not raw elephant ivory and it's certainly not a "commercial" sale of life as defined by the UCC or the regulation. All elephant ivory pre-1978 is legal and there's a lot of that in the USA......yes, legal ivory. The cue was made years ago and it will be brought into the USA legally so how is that committing or encouraging smuggling?

The cue will be carried through US customs openly, not hidden away. The possession of any artifact, curio, pool cue, etc. does not violate the regulation which is quite clear about possession of ivory. Once the cue is in the USA, it is not illegal to sell the pool cue and it would be a person to person transaction, i.e., private sale. Under contract law, acceptance of the contract is where title gets conveyed so technically it truly is a domestic transaction and hence, the original domicile of the cue seller does not make it an international sale. I reviewed this step by step with U.S. Fish & Wildlife and it's all legal. If I could get a C.I.T.E.S. certificate issued, I'd have already have the cue in my hands but that wasn't possible so instead, this is how I was told to proceed. Any musician can obtain a C.I.T.E.S.certificate allowing them to travel internationally with their musical instrument(s) but pool cues are more difficult.

So when some prestigeous cue-maker made a cue years ago and it contained ivory, that cue is legal to sell here but had that same cue worked its way overseas, that very cue forever more can never....never.... get sold in the USA because of the ban? What if the cue owner was moving to the USA from Sweden? Would he have to sell his cues before moving or give them away? It doesn't work that way. Admittedly, it's a lot more complicated now than before because of the revised regulation but still permissible if you adhere to the terms of the regulation. As I understand the term, smuggling would involve hiding the cue from US Customs and not declaring it upon entry which would not be the situation with this pool cue.

I am not disputing your personal bad experience or the experience of others transporting cues with ivory internationally. If that happened, it's a fact and as such, speaks for itself. Nonetheless, this is what I was told and frankly, this matter should be pretty much closed since only two people are involved. But when I read some of the posts and then when GS posted that I was being hypocritical, I had to set his ass straight. Why do you think I stopped posting on this thread since 8/24? Everything was being worked out to "legally" bring the cue here and while some may disagree. it is legal to sell a pool cue in the USA that contains ivory & if the cue is in the USA, it can be legally purchased. I'm starting to get the distinct feeling some Azers are rooting against me....I dunno why? Maybe they're envious, jealous, fervent anti-ivory advocates, perhaps they wanted to buy the cue but I beat them out or could even be personal animosity towards me. Anyway, none of that really matters because not to be sound redundant but really......."There's only two people involved with this pool cue sale and none of you are either."

Matt B.
 
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Bavafongoul said:
John,

How is it smuggling? I've had five separate conversations starting with the Dept. of the Interior to US Fish & Wildlife in Washington, DC and actually met with a person at CA Fish & Wildlife. Cues with ivory are not against the law to own This is not raw elephant ivory and it's certainly not a "commercial" sale of life as defined by the UCC or the regulation. All elephant ivory pre-1978 is legal and there's a lot of that in the USA......yes, legal ivory. The cue was made years ago and it will be brought into the USA legally so how is that committing or encouraging smuggling?

The cue will be carried through US customs openly, not hidden away. The possession of any artifact, curio, pool cue, etc. does not violate the regulation which is quite clear about possession of ivory. Once the cue is in the USA, it is not illegal to sell the pool cue and it would be a person to person transaction, i.e., private sale. Under contract law, acceptance of the contract is where title gets conveyed so technically it truly is a domestic transaction and the origin domicile of the cue seller does not make it an international sale. I reviewed this step by step with U.S. Fish & Wildlife and it's all legal. If I could get a C.I.T.E.S. certificate issued, I'd have already have the cue in my hands but that wasn't possible so instead, this is how I was told to proceed. Any musician can obtain a C.I.T.E.S.certificate allowing them to travel internationally with their musical instrument(s) but pool cues are more difficult.

So when some prestigeous cue-maker made a cue years ago and it had ivory, that cue is legal to sell here but if the cue worked its way overseas, that cue forever more can never be sold in the USA because of the ban? What if the cue owner was moving to the USA from Sweden? Would he have to sell his cues before moving or give them away? It doesn't work that way. Admittedly, it's a lot more complicated now than before because of the revised regulation but still permissible if you adhere to the terms of the regulation. As I understand the term, smuggling would involve hiding the cue from US Customs and not declaring it upon entry which would not be the situation with this pool cue.

I am not disputing your personal bad experience or the experience of others transporting cues with ivory internationally. If that happened, it's a fact and as such, speaks for itself. Nonetheless, this is what I was told and frankly, this matter should be pretty much closed since only two people are involved. But when I read some of the posts and then when GS posted that I was being hypocritical, I had to set his ass straight. Why do you think I stopped posting on this thread since 8/24? Everything is being worked out to "legally" bring the cue here and while some may disagree. it is legal to sell a pool cue in the USA that contains ivory & if the cue is in the USA, it can be legally purchased. I'm starting to think some Azers might not want to see me get this cue....maybe they jealous over my price, or envious of me owning this cue, or more likely, personal animosity towards me. Shit, it really doesn't matter. Like I said and let me crystal about this......."Only two people are affected and none of you are either of them".......NUF SED!

Matt B.
Click to expand...
I thought you were asking us for our thoughts on the matter. My layman's thoughts are as I outlined. Muscians who have owned their instruments with ivory in them for decades have had their instruments confiscated. If you have your bases covered then great. However you have described in detail a transaction where you have agreed to purchase an ivory cue that will be transported into the USA by a third party and handled in escrow by a fourth party who is getting a fee for his services. If that doesn't fit the criteria for a sale, commerical or otherwise, then I don't know what does.

Since you asked I told you of my experience as well as what has been reported in the news in the past few months on this issue.

And the way I read the law is that if you conspire to bring in goods that contain ivory without declaring it and providing the proper CITES documentation then it is smuggling. If you use a professional player to do this for you then that player can lose his rights to enter the United States for a period of years, up to forever which would deprive him of his ability to earn money going to US tournaments.

Now if you think that you are on solid legal ground then great. But in reality it seems like the pro is incurring risk on the behalf of the seller and you to bring what I presume is an undocumented item containg ivory into the USA.

As I stated before Iwould have not posted this on the forum at all. It's not incoceiveable, although improbable, that someone in a position to care just happens across this conversation through casual browsing on the web and decides to put out a flag for German Pro Player entering the USA so that they will have their cues inspected rigorously. Now, if your paperwork is in order then I guess that won't be a problem. If it's not then someone is out a cue and someone is probably looking at some sort of charges.

Not a situation I would want to be in nor one which I would have brought up on an open forum.

Google does after all index AZB forum content every single day. Who knows what day someone at Fish and Game or Customs will be bored and googling ivory cues to fill out their cross reference index of brands for their watch list?
 
also when an item like this is brought into the USA customs will often ask if it is intended to be sold in the usa, and a no answer would be perjury. A yes answer makes it an international sale I would think.

Anyway hope you all really do have it all worked out and if it goes well please tell the forum the steps you took so that they can all buy and sell cues safely and legally.
 
I was also responding to an insult and stating as factually as possible how the regulation reads, what the regulation allows,
and what U.S. Fish & Wildlife explained to me. Then this becomes a discussion about how I am a smuggler.......or contributing
to ivory poaching or have my moral compass screwed up or I'm a hypocrite so I came in spikes up which wasn't the situation before.

This is just getting silly and out of hand. I am sorry for my brash reply but this was all put to bed last month and now a mini shit storm is brewing.
Please, just leave it alone or else come visit me in jail if that's what anyone is rooting for. And know what, if I couldn't get this cue, I'll just
get another big one. Please everyone just leave it be but enough already.....After all it's my dough at risk (fines etc), my moral compass, my ass,
and the seller's and no one else's. And then again, some people that like to drive slowly by a traffic accident so they can stare will just never stop.

John, thanks and any info I can share I'll do so. I'm not trying to break the law but abide by it and take advantage of every loophole just as if this was
my personal tax return. And if I can find a way to obtain C.I.T.E.S. for previously manufactured cues, and naturally fwith retired or deceased cue-makers
that's probably impossible I'll certainly share that as well.
 
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Bavafongoul said:
It's my money and someone else's cue so why r u involved?
Click to expand...

Because you asked for opinions on a public forum about bringing ivory into the country, ...if you don't like the answers, don't ask the questions in the first place. From what you have described so far...(way too much considering your deal appears to be illegal) I expect the cue to be held up at customs and the seller out of a cue, the transporter possibly facing charges, and you will get off scott free. I'm not an expert, but recently a bunch of students had their bagpipes confiscated at the border...http://boston.cbslocal.com/2014/08/05/nh-teens-recover-prized-bagpipes-seized-at-canadian-border/
So unless you know someone...it looks bleak, especially since you blabbed it all in public before hand.:thumbup:
Just MHO,
Dave
 
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