Internet Calcuttas

[poolpro2]

I live in Wa St. As far as I know calcuttas are illegal.
Everyone knows how much it can add to prize money.

Does anybody know (hypothetically of course) if a room in an area calcuttas were legal...if they had the capabilities of an on line auction, could I bid? I don't see much difference over E-Bay.

This is really what I am curious about. (hypothetically)
Also could we, (Wa. St.) offer an on line auction (calcutta) - maybe only to people who live in states that allow one?

This forum stuff is pretty advanced for me internet/technology wise, and I definitely don't know internet law. I have no clue how or even if it could be done.

Maybe the tournament could register with an auction site. Or someone start a site strictly devoted to this.

It could supplement events possibly more than sponsors. Then of course, when they (sponsors) see all that money they will jump in...then we will be like golf!

If someone makes this work - remember my jelly roll!

 

[ShootingArts]

against federal law

I live in Wa St. As far as I know calcuttas are illegal.
Everyone knows how much it can add to prize money.

Does anybody know (hypothetically of course) if a room in an area calcuttas were legal...if they had the capabilities of an on line auction, could I bid? I don't see much difference over E-Bay.

This is really what I am curious about. (hypothetically)
Also could we, (Wa. St.) offer an on line auction (calcutta) - maybe only to people who live in states that allow one?

This forum stuff is pretty advanced for me internet/technology wise, and I definitely don't know internet law. I have no clue how or even if it could be done.

Maybe the tournament could register with an auction site. Or someone start a site strictly devoted to this.

It could supplement events possibly more than sponsors. Then of course, when they (sponsors) see all that money they will jump in...then we will be like golf!

If someone makes this work - remember my jelly roll!

Unfortunately Uncle Sam takes a narrow view concerning interstate gambling. This site has already received a cease and desist letter for a related issue. It doesn't make particular sense what they decide is gambling and what isn't but Calcuttas are pretty solidly in the gambling realm.

If someone tried to make the flow of money appear to be anything other than what it was then the Fed's really get irked. Do a search on FullTilt Poker. That was a multi-billion dollar business that was shut down and folks are looking at real prison time, restitution, and lots of dollars in fines last I knew.

Hu

 

[1pocket]

Unfortunately Uncle Sam takes a narrow view concerning interstate gambling. This site has already received a cease and desist letter for a related issue. It doesn't make particular sense what they decide is gambling and what isn't but Calcuttas are pretty solidly in the gambling realm.

If someone tried to make the flow of money appear to be anything other than what it was then the Fed's really get irked. Do a search on FullTilt Poker. That was a multi-billion dollar business that was shut down and folks are looking at real prison time, restitution, and lots of dollars in fines last I knew.

Hu

what is gambling about it? I mean any more than putting up an entry fee for any tournament? Wouldn't it be correct to characterize a Calcutta as an auction of piggy back entry fees? Entry fees are legal online and auctions are certainly also legal -- why would an internet auction of entry fees not be legal? Say, for example, if you ran a tournament that instead of fixing the entry fees, the entry fees were simply auctioned? Still illegal?

I definitely claim to be no expert -- I am just asking...

 

[jason]

what is gambling about it? I mean any more than putting up an entry fee for any tournament? Wouldn't it be correct to characterize a Calcutta as an auction of piggy back entry fees? Entry fees are legal online and auctions are certainly also legal -- why would an internet auction of entry fees not be legal? Say, for example, if you ran a tournament that instead of fixing the entry fees, the entry fees were simply auctioned? Still illegal?

I definitely claim to be no expert -- I am just asking...

Calcuttas are pure gambling. If you bet on a horse, you are gambling. When yo bet on another player, you are gambling. An entry fee in a tournament is based on your skill. Something you can control. When you be on someone or something you can't control, you are gambling.

Personally, I have mixed feelings about online gambling. I think, as we have seen with poker, it has a lot of security holes. On the other hand, I see a lot of hard earned US dollars being sucked out of our economy into foreign countries. I'm not sure it is not in the best interest of the US to get in the game.

 

[Marie's husband]

Washington state does allow golfing sweepstakes, which is the same as a players auction or calcutta. RCW 9.46.0341 http://www.wsgc.wa.gov/newsletters/5-204b.pdf

Yes it is illegal to still do a pool players auction since the RCW specifically says Golf, I had to call the Gambling Commission to confirm that, and they did. So I asked if it was possible to get billiards added to that RCW? The GC basically told me "yes you can get that added by doing all the paperwork and getting the backing of government officials an all that, but just to let you know, there has never been a pool players auction shut down or any fines to business's in the state of Wa according to their historical records".


My personal feelings behind it, as long as the auction is not taking money from the prize pool, then it would be hard for anyone to actually do anything major to the people conducting the auction. Now if the business or auctioneer is making a profit from the auction, then I could see some seriouse fines or jail time.

Hopefully I will never have to hear what a judge's interpretation is....lol

I dont know about the internet thing, but I know I wouldnt want to deal with all the legal parts of that scenario.

 

[1pocket]

Calcuttas are pure gambling. If you bet on a horse, you are gambling. When yo bet on another player, you are gambling. An entry fee in a tournament is based on your skill. Something you can control. When you be on someone or something you can't control, you are gambling.

Personally, I have mixed feelings about online gambling. I think, as we have seen with poker, it has a lot of security holes. On the other hand, I see a lot of hard earned US dollars being sucked out of our economy into foreign countries. I'm not sure it is not in the best interest of the US to get in the game.

"pure gambling"? I do not agree with that. Sure, it would be "pure gambling" if you had no idea who you were bidding on, or if the winner was going to be determined randomly, but this is an auction, where the bidding is not based on some random chance of winning -- clearly the reason some players go higher in the auction is because they are more skilled, not luckier. There is a risk of course, that even the favored player won't win, but I think there is a difference between "gambling" and risk. Also, usually -- or at least often -- the player goes in with the calcutta bidder anyway, so now what's the problem?

 

[jason]

"pure gambling"? I do not agree with that. Sure, it would be "pure gambling" if you had no idea who you were bidding on, or if the winner was going to be determined randomly, but this is an auction, where the bidding is not based on some random chance of winning -- clearly the reason some players go higher in the auction is because they are more skilled, not luckier. There is a risk of course, that even the favored player won't win, but I think there is a difference between "gambling" and risk. Also, usually -- or at least often -- the player goes in with the calcutta bidder anyway, so now what's the problem?

I understand your view point on "pure gambling", but you don't have any physical control of the outcome. So therefore I don't consider it a game of skill from the viewpoint of a non-player, a calcuttee if you will. In horse racing, there are clearly better horses just like there are better players in pool, but it is still considered gambling. I do agree there is an intellectual aspect to calcuttas and horse racing vs. most casino like gambling games.
You could clearly make the argument there is skill in sports betting too. Is it any different then a calcutta? I don't think so and the IRS is definitely isn't going to think so either.

 

[foxcues]

In some states if a portion of cacutta proceeds are donated to charity it is then leagle.

 

[jason]

In some states if a portion of cacutta proceeds are donated to charity it is then leagle.

In some states lotteries are legal. In some states gambling is legal. In some states prostitution is legal.

You need to back up your claim with facts and a list of states.

 

[poolpro2]

Thanks people, got a couple of things I didn't know or hadn't thought of.

I remember a few (calcuttas) back in the day, but then they put pull-tabs in the bars, the owners won't risk their gambling license for anything.

Right after they changed things some places would even tell you "don't put your money on the table." Evidently the act of putting it on the table constituted betting, paying each other hand to hand was OK.

Even though it is an obvious 4 man ring game, a line of guys waiting, playing continuously for 12+ hours.

 

[foxcues]

First,I don`t need to back up anything.I have been all over the u.s. and been to tournaments of all types(pool,golf,darts,horsesoes,poker,etc).I have staked and run around with many worldclass and road players.I only posted what has been said by several tournament directors in different states that were doing the calcuttas and they have been doing them for many years without being busted.I have been to some where some of the players and bidders were police officers,and county officials.
Second after reading your post it sounds like you are against calcuttas and gambling and would like to see gambling done away with or at least made to where uncle sam gets his share.I would never disclose a location or a tournament that has a calcutta on the internet or a website for everyone to see.There are to many snitches and detectives on the internet these days.Everyone at a tournament with a calcutta can choose to bid or not it is their choice.It`s not my place to try and save them from gambling or using their money how they want.That`s the problem with the world today everyone wants to butt into your busines and control your life for you instead of their own.

 

[ridewiththewind]

I am not a fan of calcuttas..seen them alter the final outcome of a tournament...seen players collude to cost their calcutta owners their winnings. Just too many shady doings when calcuttas were involved.

One incident involved a player attempting to control the way the calcutta was gonna pay out by his placement already in the tournament. A little 'blackmail' was attempted. The TO wound up DQing the player...only to have the player leave and call the local authorities to report gambling taking place at the tournament.

I do not think calcuttas are good for tournaments.

Sent from my VM670 using Tapatalk

 

[jason]

I only posted what has been said by several tournament directors in different states that were doing the calcuttas and they have been doing them for many years without being busted

As I stated, you need to back up your statement with evidence or it is just hearsay. I hardly believe the word of some tournament director to be an authority on the law, especially when it is in their best interest to have a calcutta. I don't believe a used car saiesman either when he tells me a little old lady was the sole owner of the car he is trying to sell me.

Just because police are present and choose not to enforce a law doesn't make it legal either. We have plenty of corrupt police and politicians in every state and city in this country. Police and the feds are not going to go after the small fish. It is not worth their time. I grew up in a town with gambling machines (i.e. cherry masters) in the taverns. For years they got away with it by paying off corrupt officials. Until one day the government got them, shutting down 26 taverns in a single day.

You can judge for yourself whether I am pro, anti or some where in between about gambling. It makes no difference to me. You can also speculate whether I'm a snitch or not. If I am, I might just come to Florida and bust your grandma's church bingo game and your home poker game. (lol)

The bottom line of this thread is about the legality of caluttas not the morality of them. So if you are going to spew out hearsay information about legal issues, you should back them up with facts.

 

[1pocket]

As I stated, you need to back up your statement with evidence or it is just hearsay. I hardly believe the word of some tournament director to be an authority on the law, especially when it is in their best interest to have a calcutta. I don't believe a used car saiesman either when he tells me a little old lady was the sole owner of the car he is trying to sell me.

Just because police are present and choose not to enforce a law doesn't make it legal either. We have plenty of corrupt police and politicians in every state and city in this country. Police and the feds are not going to go after the small fish. It is not worth their time. I grew up in a town with gambling machines (i.e. cherry masters) in the taverns. For years they got away with it by paying off corrupt officials. Until one day the government got them, shutting down 26 taverns in a single day.

You can judge for yourself whether I am pro, anti or some where in between about gambling. It makes no difference to me. You can also speculate whether I'm a snitch or not. If I am, I might just come to Florida and bust your grandma's church bingo game and your home poker game. (lol)

The bottom line of this thread is about the legality of caluttas not the morality of them. So if you are going to spew out hearsay information about legal issues, you should back them up with facts.

Okay, so we have heard your personal view, jason -- or at least a little of it, since you apparently want to keep your overall view of pool gambling out of the conversation. But where is it that you provided any of the kind of "back up your statement with evidence" that you demand of another poster that at least just went through a pretty long list of personal direct experience?

Obviously none of us here so far are experts on this kind of law (if you were, I presume you would have cited something). We are all just applying our experience, opinions and our own version of logic. Unfortunately for the opening poster, Uncle Sam and the state laws in his own area go by their own interpretations of laws not necessarily even based on "logic" or even worse, based on special interest motivations!

 

[jason]

Okay, so we have heard your personal view, jason -- or at least a little of it, since you apparently want to keep your overall view of pool gambling out of the conversation. But where is it that you provided any of the kind of "back up your statement with evidence" that you demand of another poster that at least just went through a pretty long list of personal direct experience?

Obviously none of us here so far are experts on this kind of law (if you were, I presume you would have cited something). We are all just applying our experience, opinions and our own version of logic. Unfortunately for the opening poster, Uncle Sam and the state laws in his own area go by their own interpretations of laws not necessarily even based on "logic" or even worse, based on special interest motivations!

The statement you gave was written in such a way that it was almost assumed to be true. I, like yourself, am not an expert in law. I'm not saying your statement isn't true, but I doubt it is. Stranger laws have been passed and I'm pretty sure most church bingos are tax exempt (go figure and yea this is hearsay too).

All I'm asking is if you make a claim, to back it up or defend with some real facts. I as I see it stands at the same place where it began...hearsay. I'm not playing the "my sister's boyfriend's uncle who went to law school in 1973 said it so it must be true" game.

I think in the context of this thread, hearsay should be left out of the conversation or a least qualify it by saying something like, "I heard this but I'm not sure if it is true..."

 

[Marie's husband]

Obviously none of us here so far are experts on this kind of law (if you were, I presume you would have cited something). We are all just applying our experience, opinions and our own version of logic. Unfortunately for the opening poster, Uncle Sam and the state laws in his own area go by their own interpretations of laws not necessarily even based on "logic" or even worse, based on special interest motivations!

Logic,,,,why would anyone think that......lol

That is why I called the Gambling Commission to begin with. I kept hearing that in WA state you werent allowed to have players auctions so when I saw the golf sweepstakes I called the GC and asked about it.
If your allowed to do a players auction in golf, why wouldnt you be allowed to do it in other types of events? I would think you would, at least that was my logic. And their logic is,,,because it says golf, no other reason, just because it says golf. I just had to laugh, guess you cant make your own decisions with what you do with your own money unless its specifically states it in writing, what a joke.

 

[Mark Griffin]

Internet calcuttas

There are 3 elements that must be present to constitute gambling. All 3 MUST be present.

They are prize, consideration, and chance.

Let me tell you a little story. As many know, I was the owner of anchorage billiard palace in anchorage, Alaska. Opened in 1988 and sold in 2003.

We ran calcuttas for the 2 major tournaments and returned 100% of all Calcutta proceeds. In Alaska the dept of revenue handles the alcohol beverage control AND the gaming division.

We were singled out by the gaming people and they came in our place during the finals with a warrant. They tried to locate the prize fund - but they were not successful. This was around 2001 or so.

The bottom line was they tried to confiscate our liquor license! It was total bullsh*t. It cost us $20,000 in legal fees. This was because there were a couple of enforcement officials in he gaming commission that had a strong dislike for e as an individual. (I was also in the gaming industry as a bingo supply distributor).

So just because it is 'tolerated' as it had been in Alaska for years, things can change because of an outside source. BTW, in Alaska only charitable gaming is allowed.

Mark griffin

 

[poolpro2]

Hey, has the AZ Forum changed any laws/codes yet?

Well, you all have inspired me to at least look into this a little bit.

Marie's Husband - I checked out the RCW in your post and sent an e-mail to the Tacoma office asking for specific procedures to add another activity to the sweepstakes #3 auctions for golf. Basically, do I fill out a request form, or do I have to lobby congress.

I don't know where it will go, or if I can follow up, will welcome suggestions and advice from anyone.

Who knows, maybe if we can get calcuttas going up here, it could make it worth while for a few more players to keep traveling after Reno an Sacramento.

 

[Marie's husband]

Well, you all have inspired me to at least look into this a little bit.

Marie's Husband - I checked out the RCW in your post and sent an e-mail to the Tacoma office asking for specific procedures to add another activity to the sweepstakes #3 auctions for golf. Basically, do I fill out a request form, or do I have to lobby congress.

I don't know where it will go, or if I can follow up, will welcome suggestions and advice from anyone.

Who knows, maybe if we can get calcuttas going up here, it could make it worth while for a few more players to keep traveling after Reno an Sacramento.

Here is Washingtons Governments page that will help you out it starting the process.

http://www.wsgc.wa.gov/rules/rule_change.asp

My suggestion is to start filling them out so that you can have an idea of the questions the GC are going to want answers for when talking to the them. It will also give you a point of reference to ensure you are using the proper wording when discussing this subject, that is very critical when talking to the GC either by phone or email.

When I was looking into it, i contacted all the different regions and basically each and every one of them had me contact main headquarters in Olympia. So, dont be surprised if that is the reply you get back from Tacoma. They arent blowing you off, its just not too many people within the GC even know how to deal with this questoin since only one or two people within the GC have even seen or heard of a golf sweepstakes auction.

Good luck and if you have more questions, pm me.

 

[ShootingArts]

my state is equally silly

Logic,,,,why would anyone think that......lol

That is why I called the Gambling Commission to begin with. I kept hearing that in WA state you werent allowed to have players auctions so when I saw the golf sweepstakes I called the GC and asked about it.
If your allowed to do a players auction in golf, why wouldnt you be allowed to do it in other types of events? I would think you would, at least that was my logic. And their logic is,,,because it says golf, no other reason, just because it says golf. I just had to laugh, guess you cant make your own decisions with what you do with your own money unless its specifically states it in writing, what a joke.

I did some reading a year or so ago. Gambling is illegal in Louisiana. No ifs, ands, buts, or maybes! Then they define what isn't gambling . . . Church and licensed nonprofit raffles and bingo aren't gambling. Betting in a casino isn't gambling. Betting at a paramutuel horse track isn't gambling. Private wagers between individuals on games of skill is mentioned I believe. The statute reads funny as hell because of the way it is written.

I don't remember if it was state law just more heavily enforced or local law but we never put money on the light in EBR Parish when I was gambling there. That would get you busted and the first thing done was to confiscate the money as evidence ala Jerry Reed's "When You're Hot You're Hot". No gambling signs posted everywhere too and thoroughly ignored. Gambling is probably as deeply embedded in the culture in south Louisiana as anywhere in the country and it is or was common as dirt to see everyone from the sheriff to the local judges and politicians gambling. Come election time or somebody wanting to raise a ruckus there could be a bust. Funny thing, busting a gambling ring in a small town or rural parish could blow up in your face at the polls, sometimes the majority didn't want too much law and order even if they didn't gamble themselves!

As I mentioned in my first post, interstate gambling and gambling by wire is regulated by the feds. The feds have decided that "by wire" includes the internet despite the fact it didn't exist when the law was passed. I have seen the feds slap wrists when busting huge operations and I have seen them run over a pissant with a bulldozer. No particular rhyme or reason to either choice. Left me with a strong desire to not monkey with the feds. I categorically deny any activities in a misspent youth involving agricultural m-80's and mail boxes!

Hu