IPT - Forgotten Victims and Overlooked Losses
- Thread starter sjm
- Start date
ribdoner said:Can't think of any that enjoy it.
A few might accept it.
The majority will explore their options
I suppose you are right. I have gotten closer to this situation than I wanted and have become very pissed off about the whole thing. That isn't going to change anything either.
Some of the "oh well, they had it coming" attitudes really get to me.
The Tour Card qualifier tournament is scheduled for December. So technically that is still on. 2007 hasn't happened yet so there is no loss there, yet. The Chicago tournament has not been canceled by the IPT officially so it is still "on". As of right at this moment, legally, there is no loss of income other than the unpaid prize money.
Those that are playing in qualifiers for $2000 and spending related money on travel and practice are not defrauded until a qualifying tournament does not take place and a subsequent tour does not take place. The qualifier entrants are ony vying for a spot in the Q tournament. Those that win the spot are defrauded if no tour with attached $100,000 guarantee takes place.
This is "the gun" figuaratively, that Trudeau is using to "force" players to play. Of course it's not physically coercive. It is however a promise which has been the basis of real actions taken by players all over the world and hopefully will be fulfilled. If not then I hope that the players have legal recourse and opt to take it.
Those that are playing in qualifiers for $2000 and spending related money on travel and practice are not defrauded until a qualifying tournament does not take place and a subsequent tour does not take place. The qualifier entrants are ony vying for a spot in the Q tournament. Those that win the spot are defrauded if no tour with attached $100,000 guarantee takes place.
This is "the gun" figuaratively, that Trudeau is using to "force" players to play. Of course it's not physically coercive. It is however a promise which has been the basis of real actions taken by players all over the world and hopefully will be fulfilled. If not then I hope that the players have legal recourse and opt to take it.
Actually, it is against the law to make a public promise involving investment and returns without the means to fulfill that promise. That's why brokerage houses and investment advisors have disclaimers that specifically state that they make NO PROMISES as to rate of return, and that reported rates of return are based on historical averages and may not reflect future earnings.
In this case Trudeau has made concrete statements relating to the financial state of the IPT venture. 1. The tour is fully funded for at least two years. 2. Each IPT Tour Card holder will earn at least $13,000 in 2006. 3. Each IPT Tour Card holder will earn at least $100,000 in 2007 with the difference being made up by Trudeau personally.
1 and 2 can't be held to be untrue legally until sometime in 2007. 3 can't be held to be untrue until sometime in 2008 unless someone forces Trudeau to come clean about funding and show that he has the ability to fulfill the promises he has made. If the Tour Card qualifying tournament is pushed into 2007 then a legal argument could be made that Trudeau has either no ability or no intention of having a 2007 schedule with attached gurantees and is thus defrauding all the players who are making real investments into the IPT organization based on his public promises of solvency.
As of right now, other than the unpaid 3 million, that's $3,000,000, the IPT has broken no promise. I encourage the players to force Trudeau to pay the 3 million and show a viable finance package for the IPT or to abandon it.
In this case Trudeau has made concrete statements relating to the financial state of the IPT venture. 1. The tour is fully funded for at least two years. 2. Each IPT Tour Card holder will earn at least $13,000 in 2006. 3. Each IPT Tour Card holder will earn at least $100,000 in 2007 with the difference being made up by Trudeau personally.
1 and 2 can't be held to be untrue legally until sometime in 2007. 3 can't be held to be untrue until sometime in 2008 unless someone forces Trudeau to come clean about funding and show that he has the ability to fulfill the promises he has made. If the Tour Card qualifying tournament is pushed into 2007 then a legal argument could be made that Trudeau has either no ability or no intention of having a 2007 schedule with attached gurantees and is thus defrauding all the players who are making real investments into the IPT organization based on his public promises of solvency.
As of right now, other than the unpaid 3 million, that's $3,000,000, the IPT has broken no promise. I encourage the players to force Trudeau to pay the 3 million and show a viable finance package for the IPT or to abandon it.
Roadie said:
I understand what you are saying and will assume you are correct because of my ignorance, but, Kt stated in Florida that the money was escrowed with a national accounting firm. Now, he can't pay from Reno.
Now, it seems to me, that those are grounds for at least legal proceedings.
Is this not a valid point or am I beating a dead horse here? It seems very simple to me, he lied from day one. KT implied that he would fund the tour out of his pocket for two years. What about this is not a fraud?
Roadie...Totally agree with your post #25. As for #26 the securities industry is one of my businesses so let me steer you in the right direction.
First, KT promises and the related money players put up for tour events and/or qualifiers are NOT securities so no securities laws would apply.
Secondly, even if they were securities, the law prohibits promises of investment returns EVEN IF the means to fulfull that promise are PRESENTLY in hand. That is because as the world turns the means may disappear. Even issuers of bonds cannot GUARANTEE that the interest will be paid.
There are, as usual, a few exceptions when the subject turns to certain annuities but even then LOTS of legal disclaimers are required.
Other than those technicalities, I agree with you fully. Without necessarily referring to any particular company or person, here is the "nature of the case" with respect to issues that have been litigated in the past (now my lawyer breathes easily) in my personal opinion.
1. Breach of oral and/or written and/or implied contract.
2. Promissory fraud.
3. Fruad in the inducement.
4. Wire/mail fruad.
5. Conspiracy possibly including RICO given certain people's shady background although RICO has been much abused and has fallen WAY out of favor with the courts
Just IMHO.
Regards,
Jim
First, KT promises and the related money players put up for tour events and/or qualifiers are NOT securities so no securities laws would apply.
Secondly, even if they were securities, the law prohibits promises of investment returns EVEN IF the means to fulfull that promise are PRESENTLY in hand. That is because as the world turns the means may disappear. Even issuers of bonds cannot GUARANTEE that the interest will be paid.
There are, as usual, a few exceptions when the subject turns to certain annuities but even then LOTS of legal disclaimers are required.
Other than those technicalities, I agree with you fully. Without necessarily referring to any particular company or person, here is the "nature of the case" with respect to issues that have been litigated in the past (now my lawyer breathes easily) in my personal opinion.
1. Breach of oral and/or written and/or implied contract.
2. Promissory fraud.
3. Fruad in the inducement.
4. Wire/mail fruad.
5. Conspiracy possibly including RICO given certain people's shady background although RICO has been much abused and has fallen WAY out of favor with the courts
Just IMHO.
Regards,
Jim
Thanks Jim. Once again the difference between acute knowledge and general theory become clear.
Let us hope that if it turns out that Trudeau has acted in a fraudulent manner that he can be prosecuted. If he has just been incredibly rude then let's hope that the players can unite to correct such behavior in the future.
Let us hope that if it turns out that Trudeau has acted in a fraudulent manner that he can be prosecuted. If he has just been incredibly rude then let's hope that the players can unite to correct such behavior in the future.
Ironman...<<Is this not a valid point or am I beating a dead horse here?>>
You are not beating a dead horse but I REALLY think that the legal ball is rolling as we speak...as per the statements of NYC Dude.
I don't think that there is any need to lobby further for legal action to be taken since it's a 50-1 shot that the action is already being taken.
But trust me on this because I have been involved in NUMEROUS litigations over the years (and emerging as the prevailing party 100% of the time, I can tell you for a fact that it takes time to prepare a proper Complaint.
The FACTS must be gathered, statutory and case law researched and possibly federal and state law as well as both civil and criminal law. The drafting of the Complaint in a thorough and high quality manner can take WEEKS AND WEEKS, not days and days.
From the inception of the decision to sue until the filing of the Complaint can EASILY take a month or two and that is especially true when a Class Action is contemplated and DOUBLY especially true when there is more than a little risk in the defendant running into the bankruptcy courts.
I believe that Mr. Goldwater meant what he said on this forum in which case all concerned must just be patient.
Regards,
Jim
You are not beating a dead horse but I REALLY think that the legal ball is rolling as we speak...as per the statements of NYC Dude.
I don't think that there is any need to lobby further for legal action to be taken since it's a 50-1 shot that the action is already being taken.
But trust me on this because I have been involved in NUMEROUS litigations over the years (and emerging as the prevailing party 100% of the time, I can tell you for a fact that it takes time to prepare a proper Complaint.
The FACTS must be gathered, statutory and case law researched and possibly federal and state law as well as both civil and criminal law. The drafting of the Complaint in a thorough and high quality manner can take WEEKS AND WEEKS, not days and days.
From the inception of the decision to sue until the filing of the Complaint can EASILY take a month or two and that is especially true when a Class Action is contemplated and DOUBLY especially true when there is more than a little risk in the defendant running into the bankruptcy courts.
I believe that Mr. Goldwater meant what he said on this forum in which case all concerned must just be patient.
Regards,
Jim
If someone(s) is willing to initiate the class action suit, NYC firms have the experience to deal with a non-residential business.
The Lowest courts in NYC is the Supreme Court.
In pretty much every other state the highest court is the supreme court.
Anyone can get prosecuted to win the case is another thing.
The Lowest courts in NYC is the Supreme Court.
In pretty much every other state the highest court is the supreme court.
Anyone can get prosecuted to win the case is another thing.
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Ironman...<<Wouln't the bankruptcy courts take this into consideration. Seems to me this would be a flight to avoid. Another fraud.>>
Debts incurred by acts of fraud are NOT dischargable in bankruptcy cases. The credit card companies use that factor all the time. They try to make the case that the card holder ran up the debts without ever intending to pay...which is fraud...and which is quite often true!
But once bankruptcy is filed, then an Automatic Stay is imposed which means that no other pre-existing civil suits can proceed unless and until the stay is lifted by the bankruptcy court.
There are legal actions that can proceed within the walls of the bankruptcy court called Adversarial Proceedings but trust me on this...bankruptcy law is the legal version of a can of worms deposited into a snake pit....AT BEST!!!!!!!!!!!
Trust me...I had to chase a bad guy through a 2 1/2 year civil suit at which point he filed Chapter 11 and then turned around and filed an Adversarial Proceeding against MY company...which we prevailed on but it took a year + and a BUNCH of money.
But, in the end, I ground the sum***** into the dust from which he was created which is what I intended to do and which is what he deserved.
Regards,
Jim
Debts incurred by acts of fraud are NOT dischargable in bankruptcy cases. The credit card companies use that factor all the time. They try to make the case that the card holder ran up the debts without ever intending to pay...which is fraud...and which is quite often true!
But once bankruptcy is filed, then an Automatic Stay is imposed which means that no other pre-existing civil suits can proceed unless and until the stay is lifted by the bankruptcy court.
There are legal actions that can proceed within the walls of the bankruptcy court called Adversarial Proceedings but trust me on this...bankruptcy law is the legal version of a can of worms deposited into a snake pit....AT BEST!!!!!!!!!!!
Trust me...I had to chase a bad guy through a 2 1/2 year civil suit at which point he filed Chapter 11 and then turned around and filed an Adversarial Proceeding against MY company...which we prevailed on but it took a year + and a BUNCH of money.
But, in the end, I ground the sum***** into the dust from which he was created which is what I intended to do and which is what he deserved.
Regards,
Jim
justnum...<<the bankuptcy courts would pay off debtors, like banks lending to IPT, IPT stakeholders, IPT employees with W2s.
People victims to the organization would not get money and would have to seek it through other courts.>>
With respect, that is not actually correct. There are various classes of creditors...the two most notable being Secured and Unsecured Creditors. Individual people can be Secured Creditors just like that Banks and other large institutions. It all depends on whether there was any Security Agreement or other form of collateral pledges.
I don't recall whether employees get any priority within the Unsecured Creditor Class but I don't THINK so. I THINK they are just unsecured creditors like everyone else.
FOR SURE any IPT "stakeholder" as you put it (I assume you are referring to ownership interests like stock or Partnership Interests etc. are NOT secured creditors but Unsecured like everyone else.
In a Chapter 7 (which is the total, all out GONZO version) the Bankruptcy Court will decide how to divide any assets among the secured creditors and IF there is anything left, then the Unsecured Creditors get a taste.
The above is a GENERAL primer on the law and there are ALL KINDS of "yes buts" involved including Preference Items and Insider Transactions and about 14 tons of gobbledygook. But in general, that's the way it works.
What the PLAYERS as creditors need to take into consideration is that ABSENT A SHOWING OF FRAUD...then any CONTRACT they might have with the IPT...whether written, oral or implied will be VOIDED by the bankruptcy court...totally bye bye...but on the contrary if fraud can be PROVEN...then the IPT's debt to them would NOT be voided.
Then there is Chapter 11 which is referred to as a Reorganization which is TOTALLY debtor friendly and basically a nightmare for the creditors because it allows the Debtor to continue business for, potentially, a LONG time while the creditors have to sit back in a fairly powerless position.
But ENOUGH. We could all read 10,000 pages about bankruptcy law and still not have it all!
Regards,
Jim
People victims to the organization would not get money and would have to seek it through other courts.>>
With respect, that is not actually correct. There are various classes of creditors...the two most notable being Secured and Unsecured Creditors. Individual people can be Secured Creditors just like that Banks and other large institutions. It all depends on whether there was any Security Agreement or other form of collateral pledges.
I don't recall whether employees get any priority within the Unsecured Creditor Class but I don't THINK so. I THINK they are just unsecured creditors like everyone else.
FOR SURE any IPT "stakeholder" as you put it (I assume you are referring to ownership interests like stock or Partnership Interests etc. are NOT secured creditors but Unsecured like everyone else.
In a Chapter 7 (which is the total, all out GONZO version) the Bankruptcy Court will decide how to divide any assets among the secured creditors and IF there is anything left, then the Unsecured Creditors get a taste.
The above is a GENERAL primer on the law and there are ALL KINDS of "yes buts" involved including Preference Items and Insider Transactions and about 14 tons of gobbledygook. But in general, that's the way it works.
What the PLAYERS as creditors need to take into consideration is that ABSENT A SHOWING OF FRAUD...then any CONTRACT they might have with the IPT...whether written, oral or implied will be VOIDED by the bankruptcy court...totally bye bye...but on the contrary if fraud can be PROVEN...then the IPT's debt to them would NOT be voided.
Then there is Chapter 11 which is referred to as a Reorganization which is TOTALLY debtor friendly and basically a nightmare for the creditors because it allows the Debtor to continue business for, potentially, a LONG time while the creditors have to sit back in a fairly powerless position.
But ENOUGH. We could all read 10,000 pages about bankruptcy law and still not have it all!
Regards,
Jim
Roadie said:
As I said, the IPT has "officially" confirmed nothing of the sort. Eydie Romano has done a fine job of finding out if the IPT physically exists and in reporting the status of the tournament. However, beyond, Eydie's report of what Deno said to her there has been no corraboration from either the IPT directly nor any external source. Has there been any other that I have missed?
The purpose of my assertion is that we should stick to the facts and treat rumor as unconfirmed until we have corraboration.
This entire mess may turn into a "what did they, and when did they know it sort of thing" and it may be important down the road to be able to seperate what was fact on the timeline from what was rumored.
For Mr. Goldwater: I have the recording of the player's meetings of the North American Open and the World Open that were downloaded from the IPT website. I do not know if they are of any use but if you would like them post a reply here and I will get them posted to a place where you can download them.
The purpose of my assertion is that we should stick to the facts and treat rumor as unconfirmed until we have corraboration.
This entire mess may turn into a "what did they, and when did they know it sort of thing" and it may be important down the road to be able to seperate what was fact on the timeline from what was rumored.
For Mr. Goldwater: I have the recording of the player's meetings of the North American Open and the World Open that were downloaded from the IPT website. I do not know if they are of any use but if you would like them post a reply here and I will get them posted to a place where you can download them.