IPT - Forgotten Victims and Overlooked Losses

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Who deserves your gratitude and who deserves your sympathy in the matter of the IPT?

However it all turns out, I'll always believe that KT tried to make this venture work. For that, he deserves gratitude. If the IPT turns it all around, he'll deserve even more.

More than a few players have some real money to show for their efforts, having participated in the King of the Hill and/or the IPT Vegas event and earning enough to justify the effort they gave and sacrifices they made to participate on the IPT. For these players, many of whom are personal friends, I couldn’t be happier. Every BCA Hall of Famer has been paid at least $32,000 cash, and that’s just great!

For the sake of the players, I’m hoping for with all my heart that the IPT will right it’s ship, but…………..if this is the end and the IPT is over, amidst shockingly poor communications to the players and continual misrepresentation of its financial condition and operational plans, then woe is us.

As my fellow posters already know, I feel that the wounds of the IPT have been inflicted not just on the players, but on many others. Still, in this thread, I’ll focus on just the players. If the IPT is dead my heart will weep for these players, some of them overlooked in far too many IPT threads.

John A Poolplayer practiced hundreds of hours and spent thousands of dollars trying to earn one of the eight IPT tour cards vacated by members originally selected but was unsuccessful. Time invested in practice and attempts to qualify meant reduced earnings power from giving pool lessons.

John B Poolplayer practiced hundreds of hours and spent thousands of dollars trying to get into one or more IPT events, but failed to get into any of them. Time invested in practice and attempts to qualify meant reduced earning s power from giving pool lessons.

John C Poolplayer practiced hundreds of hours and spent thousands of dollars trying to get into one or more IPT events, but expenses to date not covered by prizes received to date. Time invested in practice and attempts to qualify meant reduced earnings power from giving pool lessons.

John D Poolplayer was an original IPT member, but prizes received to date are barely worth the expenses incurred to date and lost income from giving lessons and appearance moneys that could have been earned.

John E Poolplayer was considering furthering education but put it on hold to pursue the IPT dream and has little to show for it. Education set back by a year.

John F Poolplayer was considering starting or furthering a business venture but put it on the back burner to pursue the IPT dream. Business plans set back and, perhaps, business opportunities foregone.

John G Poolplayer had a full-time job but gave it up to pursue the IPT dream. Out the cash that could have been earned, and career development set back by one year. Would have had medical insurance, but had to purchase it, costing thousands. May or may not have access to a job comparable to what they had.

John H Poolplayer had the qualifications to pursue gainful full-time employment, but put it off to pursue the IPT dream. Out the cash that could have been earned, and career development set back by one year. Would have had medical insurance, but had to purchase it, costing thousands.

How easily we forget these eight victims of the IPT if the end has been reached. Please, my fellow posters, keep John A, John B, John C, John D, John E, John F, John G and John H in your thoughts. Each of them, and so many others, will have wounds to lick if the IPT folds.
 
Not a bad post.

Keep in mind that they were all following their dream. It was their choice.

Do you also feel sorry for all the thousands of people who head off for Hollywood to find fame and fortune? They go heavily in debt paying outrageous amounts for portfolios and charm school, etc, and in the end they end up broken.

How about a woman who's parents would have paid her tuition for college and she decided to follow her dream and join the WPBA instead. Three years later she is still an almost pro. She gave up $10,000 tuition, per year, (at least) from her parents to follow her dream. There was an article in todays paper stating that a college grad earns on average $23,000 more per year than a high school grad.

At least they all had fun making their own decisions. And no, I do not feel sorry for any of them. Nor am I going to waste any time thinking about them. You see, I have my own decisions to make each and every day of my life. yes I would like to be out playing pool with the pros every night, drinking and partying, but that is not the decision I made in life.

Jake
 
jjinfla said:
Not a bad post.

Keep in mind that they were all following their dream. It was their choice.

Do you also feel sorry for all the thousands of people who head off for Hollywood to find fame and fortune? They go heavily in debt paying outrageous amounts for portfolios and charm school, etc, and in the end they end up broken.

There are certainly parallels. Still, the riches of success in Hollywoood are an established fact, not a myth. The riches of success in the IPT may prove to be no more than a myth, a mirage in which nobody will enjoy sustained success.

When one makes sacrifices to pursue a dream that isn't real, it is tragic.
 
There is a lot of truth to what you say and a lot of speculation as well. If the IPT truns out to be defunct then I expect those that practiced and tried will be an experience wiser for it. Doesn't the saying go better to have tried and failed than to have never tried at all. How are we to know that a Vilmos Foldes (who had ever heard of him) or a Ben Nunan might not end up being world champion when they might not have ever ventured that far without the incentive the IPT gave them?

In my life I have seen opportunities come and go. Rarely has one slipped away that hasn't been replaced by another. I think that every player who experienced the IPT will say that they did so with the highest expectations.

One of my friends reported to me that after the King of The Hill tournament last year they felt like a professional player for the very first time in their life. This is someone who has been making a living from pool for 15 years.

It is fairly open that Trudeau over-inflated his capacity to fulfill the promises he made. Still, he put on a great show and did collectively benefit more people than he has harmed in regards to the IPT players.

I hope that this is a wake up call for the players to get together and insist on truthfullness and insight regarding how they are handled. Hope is a great thing, it keeps most of humanity going, unfortunately it doesn't pay the bills.

I would hope that all of those players in your examples would not look at themselves as victims of the IPT but rather be inspired by their experience to reach for even greater things than were promised by Trudeau.
 
Nice post sjm!

It certainly will be disappointing to a great many if the IPT either doesn't fulfill promises or doesn't meet success.

It's a good thing to have empathy for the many that will be negatively affected, or who didn't realize their dreams.

Life presents risks, and things don't always work out. That's no reason not to have empathy when such things to occur.

Now making and breaking promises is quite another thing, and we still have to sit on the fence a while to see how that really pans out.

Colin
 
sjm...<<Each of them, and so many others, will have wounds to lick if the IPT folds.>>

Outstanding post. Your high "rep" score is well deserved. I think there are very few who hope that the IPT fails and would agree to send KT Christmas cards in jail if he POSTED...in a REAL escrow account, enough money to insure the IPT's survival.

But your highly diplomatic phrase..."amidst shockingly poor communications to the players and continual misrepresentation of its financial condition and operational plans..." is the same thing as saying he lied...which he did...repeatedly...and THAT is what is being complained about here IMHO. And rightfully so.

Regards,
Jim
 
After this BD interview, I hope Chicago doesn't happen. (that is, if the Reno player's don't get paid).


I know a lot of IPT players might think I'm being an asshole for saying that, but here's my reasoning.


A lot of the players have the attitude and mentality of people wanting to believe despite the reality. Crooks like KT, if they don't payout, have them hooked. KT is a classic con man in his past businesses and he PREYS on people who are down and out (like pool players) in the past such as the overweight, the terminally ill, and others.


I wouldn't want to see the players, in desperation, in belief for the IPT, go to Chicago and get ripped off again.


I believe that if Reno doesn't get paid, a number of players will still show up to Chicago (if that event happens) just because they really want the IPT to happen.

Why do I claim that? Because qualifiers who went to Vegas or Reno are gung-ho about the tour card qualifier and paid $2000 to play in a qualifier for a tour that is uncertain (see BD interview). Those are qualifiers. What about players who are already invited to the tournament? Will they go? I think so.


It is wishful thinking, it is denial, it is being suckered all mixed in. The wost part, the most humiliating and degrading part would be players not getting paid, yet attending an event that probably costs $1,000,000 to run.

Here's another reason why (hypothetically) if KT doesn't pay, yet still holds a Chicago tourney why players will show up: Because many are still iffy on the whole IPT success thing, and they wouldn't want to miss a tournament, thus LOSING money (for rank) only to see the IPT recover and they lose out on the 2007 Tour Card. These schemes are amazing snares. Think about it, you're a player, you're 90th place - if no Chicago happens and a 2007 season forms - you're in. If Chicago happens, and you don't go thinking the IPT is dead, and it recovers for 2007 - you're out. LOL.


If everyone gets paid - good. I'll be happy, but still skeptical. Players can go to Chicago knowing the risks involved.
 
sjm said:
Who deserves your gratitude and who deserves your sympathy in the matter of the IPT?

However it all turns out, I'll always believe that KT tried to make this venture work. For that, he deserves gratitude. If the IPT turns it all around, he'll deserve even more.

More than a few players have some real money to show for their efforts, having participated in the King of the Hill and/or the IPT Vegas event and earning enough to justify the effort they gave and sacrifices they made to participate on the IPT. For these players, many of whom are personal friends, I couldn’t be happier. Every BCA Hall of Famer has been paid at least $32,000 cash, and that’s just great!

For the sake of the players, I’m hoping for with all my heart that the IPT will right it’s ship, but…………..if this is the end and the IPT is over, amidst shockingly poor communications to the players and continual misrepresentation of its financial condition and operational plans, then woe is us.

As my fellow posters already know, I feel that the wounds of the IPT have been inflicted not just on the players, but on many others. Still, in this thread, I’ll focus on just the players. If the IPT is dead my heart will weep for these players, some of them overlooked in far too many IPT threads.

John A Poolplayer practiced hundreds of hours and spent thousands of dollars trying to earn one of the eight IPT tour cards vacated by members originally selected but was unsuccessful. Time invested in practice and attempts to qualify meant reduced earnings power from giving pool lessons.

John B Poolplayer practiced hundreds of hours and spent thousands of dollars trying to get into one or more IPT events, but failed to get into any of them. Time invested in practice and attempts to qualify meant reduced earning s power from giving pool lessons.

John C Poolplayer practiced hundreds of hours and spent thousands of dollars trying to get into one or more IPT events, but expenses to date not covered by prizes received to date. Time invested in practice and attempts to qualify meant reduced earnings power from giving pool lessons.

John D Poolplayer was an original IPT member, but prizes received to date are barely worth the expenses incurred to date and lost income from giving lessons and appearance moneys that could have been earned.

John E Poolplayer was considering furthering education but put it on hold to pursue the IPT dream and has little to show for it. Education set back by a year.

John F Poolplayer was considering starting or furthering a business venture but put it on the back burner to pursue the IPT dream. Business plans set back and, perhaps, business opportunities foregone.

John G Poolplayer had a full-time job but gave it up to pursue the IPT dream. Out the cash that could have been earned, and career development set back by one year. Would have had medical insurance, but had to purchase it, costing thousands. May or may not have access to a job comparable to what they had.

John H Poolplayer had the qualifications to pursue gainful full-time employment, but put it off to pursue the IPT dream. Out the cash that could have been earned, and career development set back by one year. Would have had medical insurance, but had to purchase it, costing thousands.

How easily we forget these eight victims of the IPT if the end has been reached. Please, my fellow posters, keep John A, John B, John C, John D, John E, John F, John G and John H in your thoughts. Each of them, and so many others, will have wounds to lick if the IPT folds.

My mistake for overlooking John I Poolplayer, who spent money trying, successfully or unsuccessfully, to qualify for IPT Chicago, only to learn that there is no IPT Chicago.
 
sjm said:
My mistake for overlooking John I Poolplayer, who spent money trying, successfully or unsuccessfully, to qualify for IPT Chicago, only to learn that there is no IPT Chicago.

Chicago was members only, I think they are strictly qualifing for the final year end tour qualifier which I bet one way or another still happens since no prize money is distributed.
 
SlimShafty said:
Chicago was members only, I think they are strictly qualifing for the final year end tour qualifier which I bet one way or another still happens since no prize money is distributed.

Thanks for the correction. I dogged that one.
 
I am so confused. :-( I suppose now that if Chicago is "canceled/postponed" then the Q-Tourney has to be postponed as well since that affects the rankings.

Trudeau has managed to more for pool and to pool in a year than anyone else in recent memory.

The glass half full is looking very empty at the moment.

:-(
 
Roadie said:
I am so confused. :-( I suppose now that if Chicago is "canceled/postponed" then the Q-Tourney has to be postponed as well since that affects the rankings.

Trudeau has managed to more for pool and to pool in a year than anyone else in recent memory.

The glass half full is looking very empty at the moment.

:-(

No CHI = more $ for K*&T OR those he owes $.

His actions will clarify his intentions as time marches on.
 
jjinfla said:
Not a bad post.

Keep in mind that they were all following their dream. It was their choice.

Do you also feel sorry for all the thousands of people who head off for Hollywood to find fame and fortune? They go heavily in debt paying outrageous amounts for portfolios and charm school, etc, and in the end they end up broken.

How about a woman who's parents would have paid her tuition for college and she decided to follow her dream and join the WPBA instead. Three years later she is still an almost pro. She gave up $10,000 tuition, per year, (at least) from her parents to follow her dream. There was an article in todays paper stating that a college grad earns on average $23,000 more per year than a high school grad.

At least they all had fun making their own decisions. And no, I do not feel sorry for any of them. Nor am I going to waste any time thinking about them. You see, I have my own decisions to make each and every day of my life. yes I would like to be out playing pool with the pros every night, drinking and partying, but that is not the decision I made in life.

Jake


Ah, Hell is freezing...I agree with Jake 100%. However, having said that, each and every player who participated in the Reno tourney did so expecting payment advertised for where they place. It was the IPT who advertised that they would pay all the way out to last place. This was the understanding prior to the event and agreed on by ALL parties involved.

This was not a charity situation, it was a tourney and for Pro players this was equal to a week at the office, thus this should be viewed by no one as charity. Every one involved (including Bernie) should have been paid in a timely manner. I can not say the same thing about proposed tourneys that never happened and promises of 100K a year... anything in the real world can go belly up at any time and peoples lives would be in shambles....think GM plant closings, does GM owe it to their laid off workers to pay lost salary for an indifanite number of years? Or is GM only liable for paying for production that was already completed?

If someone quit their steady 9-5 and bought a luxuary vehicle on proposed promises then that is on them... and if someone choses to practice their game instead of earning an income for a shot at a tour and that tour fails then lost income is not the fault of KT. But not paying ANYONE for a task preformed is a fraud and is criminal. KT is laible for the Reno payouts....nothing more and nothing less. Everything else is free will inacted by John Poolplayer, regardless of the situation.

Landshark77 <~~not a KT fan, but lives in the real world with free will.
 
landshark77 said:
if someone choses to practice their game instead of earning an income for a shot at a tour and that tour fails then lost income is not the fault of KT.

How do you figure?

KT misrepresented the nature of the very personal business venture that each dreamer pursued. Each invested time and money, and in large part, in reliance on two public statements made by KT: 1) the tour was fully funded for the first two seasons and those funds were guaranteed by an accounting firm, and 2) in 2007, IPT tour members will have a minimum income of $100,000. So many investments of time and money were based on these and other obfuscations of the truth.

Perhaps you have no sympathy for investors who lost small fortunes in Enron and WorldCom, who also exercised what you'd call free will but so many of whom ultimately invested in businesses whose operations and financial condition had been grossly misrepresented to them by management.

If the IPT folds (perhaps it won't, as we all hope), and all the debts remain unpaid, the IPT incident is best described as a swindle, and not, as you suggest, an ordinary business failure.
 
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Roadie said:
I am so confused. :-( I suppose now that if Chicago is "canceled/postponed" then the Q-Tourney has to be postponed as well since that affects the rankings.

:-(

Understand the confusion Roadie,but some relevant points that should be remembered in relation to the above:-

1. When London was cancelled there was no suggestion from IPT that they intended to do anything about amending the ranking procedure,despite the fact that cancellation of London had a potentially significant effect on the top 100 rankings.

2. Even to the optimists amongst us the answers KT gave in the BD interview pretty much indicated that The KOTH was going to be cancelled,sorry postponed,so from that point there was surely no longer any serious possibility or expectation of the qualifying event going ahead in December without the KOTH.

3. Presumably therefore their choices were/are to piggyback the qualifying event on to Chicago in November or December or early next year (to be fair this would nevertheless be logistically very difficult for a number of reasons) or to move the qualifying event to whatever the new KOTH date is or to move the qualifying event to a new later date of its own.

4. It has been an open secret for a long time (a couple of months at least) that whatever happened there would be no 2007 tour events carrying prize money in the first half of 2007 and there has been reasonable speculation on past 'form' that there would probably be qualifying events held for one or more of these 2007 tour events during the early part of next year.
----------------------

Under the above circumstances,and given Deno's reported noises about 'postponement', you can be pretty sure that what will happen next is an announcement that new dates and venues early in 2007 will be found for Chicago and for the 2006 KOTH and for the tour card qualifier final.
 
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sjm said:
How do you figure?

KT misrepresented the nature of the very personal business venture that each dreamer pursued. Each invested time and money, and in large part, in reliance on two public statements made by KT: 1) the tour was fully funded for the first two seasons and those funds were guaranteed by an accounting firm, and 2) in 2007, IPT tour members will have a minimum income of $100,000. So many investments of time and money were based on these and other obfuscations of the truth.

Perhaps you have no sympathy for investors who lost small fortunes in Enron and WorldCom, who also exercised what you'd call free will but so many of whom ultimately invested in businesses whose operations and financial condition had been grossly misrepresented to them by management.

If the IPT folds (perhaps it won't, as we all hope), and all the debts remain unpaid, the IPT incident is best described as a swindle, and not, as you suggest, an ordinary business failure.

Well, I guess I am looking at it like this: Durring an interview with a former employeer of a grant funded position I asked about the stability of the position an dthe grant, as there are plenty of other jobs I could take that are not grant funded. I was told that though the position was grant funded the angency has had this grant for 20 years. It is sound and there was no need to worry. So I took the job. I needed to travel allot so I bought a brand new car. I also bought my house, as my promised salary was a decent wage for my living area. Guess what? 5 mos into my position...I took it mid-fiscal year... I get notified that the grant is in trouble and it may not be awarded. I was only promised my position until the end of the calender year. To get another job I would have to take a pay cut and I wouldn't be able to afford my house AND car. I only took the job because my interviewer promised me the grant was stable. Was it my previous falt that I no longer had a position and that I was in a financial bind? No. So why is it IPTs fault?

Yes, my employeer paid me....had Kevin done this then yes, Johnny Poolplayer would be disapointed and possibly mad, but he would not really have a legit gripe. The fact that Johnny Poolplayer was not paid is salary is the problem and the only legit concern I can see that would have any real recourse.

I can see how Johnny Poolplayer may believe is lost wages are the fault of KT, but KT did not hold a gun to his head and say that he must play in the IPT. All KT did was sell a dream while hanging a buck just in reach. Johnny Poolpayer close on his free will to cash that dollar instead of another one.

Landshark77 <~~ again NOT a KT fan, but KT didn't tell anyone they HAD to sepnd money on the IPT.
 
IMO he sold lottery tickets for a $100,000 prize, tickets cost $2,000 dollars a pop PLUS EXEPENSES (insert travel, hotels, and yes practice time).

In addition he gave away 150 tickets for free which guaranteed $13,000 minimum prize money with the chance to win more in each lucky draw (event) He also guranteed the top 100 would receive a minimum $100,000 as the first rwo years lucky draws were guaranteed.

I doubt he would be getting cut so much slack if this was indeed a series of multi million dollar lotteries and not a poxy pool tour. :confused:
 
All the top players have had big Highs & Lows getting to the level that they are presently at. They all know how risky it is when your out in the trenches. Tomorrow is not that far away, may the best prepared make something of their life in this sport if matters turn for the better. Like another poster, was good to see others, especially the UK players rise to the top, thems our light colored Homies, (all in fun guys) ;)
 
landshark77 said:
Ah, Hell is freezing...I agree with Jake 100%. However, having said that, each and every player who participated in the Reno tourney did so expecting payment advertised for where they place. It was the IPT who advertised that they would pay all the way out to last place. This was the understanding prior to the event and agreed on by ALL parties involved.

This was not a charity situation, it was a tourney and for Pro players this was equal to a week at the office, thus this should be viewed by no one as charity. Every one involved (including Bernie) should have been paid in a timely manner. I can not say the same thing about proposed tourneys that never happened and promises of 100K a year... anything in the real world can go belly up at any time and peoples lives would be in shambles....think GM plant closings, does GM owe it to their laid off workers to pay lost salary for an indifanite number of years? Or is GM only liable for paying for production that was already completed?

If someone quit their steady 9-5 and bought a luxuary vehicle on proposed promises then that is on them... and if someone choses to practice their game instead of earning an income for a shot at a tour and that tour fails then lost income is not the fault of KT. But not paying ANYONE for a task preformed is a fraud and is criminal. KT is laible for the Reno payouts....nothing more and nothing less. Everything else is free will inacted by John Poolplayer, regardless of the situation.

Landshark77 <~~not a KT fan, but lives in the real world with free will.

What was promised by KT after Reno is a fact as well and can't be denied. He promised 150 people and whoever chose to listen that they in fact would earn $100,000 in 2007, or, he would make up the difference out of his own pocket. Kt sold the idea, and the players bought it....

KT lied from the very first about the money being ESCROWED. If he wasn't, then he plain and simply, stole the money. Still, he promised. The players again bought it.... Naieve on the players part? Very possibly so, but that ain't against the law.

KT founded a tour with the idea that it had his personal garuntee. Again, the money is ESCROWED. Where is it. Again, he promised that they would earn a minimum of $100.000 in 2007. That is or should be against the law and more importantly, it just ain't right. He has lied repeatedly about most everything that has come out of his mouth.

The players have basicly been RAPED. You suggest they should just lay there and enjoy it?
 
ironman said:
The players have basicly been RAPED. You suggest they should just lay there and enjoy it?
No not at all. I am saying that Johnny Poolplayer making a claim to lost income because he CHOSE to practice instead of giving lessons is far fetched.

KT is a liar. That has been established way before his involvement in the pool world. He is laible for paying the players their promised salaries for duties performed. As far as everthing else...if it comes out of a liars mouth and it wasn't in writing, well then, my guess is it isn't the truth. I just don't see how anyone can win a case on promises unless they were in writing. If KT was dumb enough to put his 100K promise in writing, well then, he is laible for that too, but then how would anyone prove they would have been the ones with the 07 tour card.

As far as the q'ers go, those players who q'ed (and attempted to q; ie paid their 2K) for an event that was "postponed" should be reinbursted. Those who actually played (or attempted to q for an event that was actually held) in an event got what they paid for...so to speak.
 
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