IPT Slow To Pay

jay helfert

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
By now you may be aware that most, if not all, of the players who won money in the recent series of Qualifiers remain UNPAID.

Those that won back entry fee money that had been put on their credit cards were recently credited back. Many (if not all) of those that had money coming have yet to be paid.

I sponsored Cliff in two Qualifiers, Hard Times and Boston. In Boston he won $5,500 for running seven racks and making the Eight on the break. That is over one month ago! On March 3rd I gave my address and social securty number to Lindsay at the IPT offices. She said the check should be coming soon.

On March 11th, I contacted Lindsay again and was told accounting was sending out the checks. This past week I contacted her again and Deno called me back. He told me about a myriad of problems with personnel, accounting procedures, etc. He said the check would be going out last Friday or this Monday. Maybe it will at last come this week. I don't know.

What I do know is that I am one unhappy camper. I sponsored Cliff with the best of intentions, in support of this new tour. I knew it was a long shot and yet I spent well over $3,000 sending him to two Qualifiers. Since the Boston
event, I have sent Cliff his share of the winnings. I am the one left holding the bag right now to the tune of $4,600.

All I know is that this is a funny way to do business. And I will be careful about supporting them in the future.
 
Hi Jay. I am sure everything will work out. If the IPT fails, I think it will be in the form of planned events being canceled - and not so much not being paid. Especially at so early a juncture; it would really be suicide for them to flat-out not pay those bonuses (bonii? :D ).

I am curious... how did you work out your deal with the IPT that YOU would be the one being paid, and not Cliff? I ask because I think it's a wonderful idea, one that I was going to suggest in this forum. For this kind of money, the backers ought to have a way of guaranteeing their return (if there is any). Putting your trust in a player to write out a check for $150,000 is a lot different than divvying up the $1,800 he wins at a Joss event, lol.

Without this form of protection (the IPT splitting the money into two different checks), a backer is asking for what he'll probably get. And it's truly a shame, because it's going to happen (and from what I've heard already has).

- Steve
 
I would think ...

That would be laws against paying another person than the one that did the actual winning of the money. (former Payroll Supervisor - 5,000 emp.) unless
their was paperwork with the player authorizing it. The IRS tends to be picky that way. It is called an audit trail.
 
Steve Lipsky said:
Hi Jay. I am sure everything will work out. If the IPT fails, I think it will be in the form of planned events being canceled - and not so much not being paid. Especially at so early a juncture; it would really be suicide for them to flat-out not pay those bonuses (bonii? :D ).

I am curious... how did you work out your deal with the IPT that YOU would be the one being paid, and not Cliff? I ask because I think it's a wonderful idea, one that I was going to suggest in this forum. For this kind of money, the backers ought to have a way of guaranteeing their return (if there is any). Putting your trust in a player to write out a check for $150,000 is a lot different than divvying up the $1,800 he wins at a Joss event, lol.

Without this form of protection (the IPT splitting the money into two different checks), a backer is asking for what he'll probably get. And it's truly a shame, because it's going to happen (and from what I've heard already has).

- Steve
Click to expand...


Spoke with Deno and Kevin at the Hard Times event regarding my deal with Cliff. Was told that such an arrangement could be worked out if the player
and backer agree to it, which we did.

At this point, this is not the issue. The issue is not who is being paid, but when. NO check today!

I may or may not sponsor Cliff again on the IPT if I am satisfied that this delay is an anomaly.
 
Snapshot9 said:
That would be laws against paying another person than the one that did the actual winning of the money. (former Payroll Supervisor - 5,000 emp.) unless
their was paperwork with the player authorizing it. The IRS tends to be picky that way. It is called an audit trail.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but that's kind of what I meant. My suggestion would have been for the players to fill out something before the qualifiers, including the names and percents of each backer, as well as any terms (i.e., 50% of profits for 2 years).

It sounds like a lot of paperwork, but it's not really. If there are 80 players in a qualifier, 78 of those papers are getting tossed in the garbage on Sunday night lol.

Anyway, just an idea...

- Steve
 
Snapshot9 said:
That would be laws against paying another person than the one that did the actual winning of the money. (former Payroll Supervisor - 5,000 emp.) unless
their was paperwork with the player authorizing it. The IRS tends to be picky that way. It is called an audit trail.
Click to expand...


I will be the one getting taxed on Cliff's winnings. Maybe you didn't read in my post that I had to give my social security number, among other info.
 
I understand that

jay helfert said:
I will be the one getting taxed on Cliff's winnings. Maybe you didn't read in my post that I had to give my social security number, among other info.
Click to expand...

Jay, but the IRS do not like backdoor 'patches' when an upfront agreement
existed for any 'earned' money (wages). Also, having to file a 1099 for every state (country) the money was earned in would not be pleasant.

And also, there are state laws governing businesses in regards to how long
they have to pay an individual after the pay is 'earned'. The laws can vary from state to state.

For your own sake and protection, I think you should consult an accountant.

(not trying to be the voice of doom, but I was the top payroll person for Learjet and Glasco, a subsidiary, for 5 years, with locations in 16 different states and 3 foreign countries for 5,500 employees)
 
So does that mean Cliff was an employee? I hope Jay paid him double time then cause I am sure Cliff played over 12 hours. LOL
 
Snapshot9 said:
Jay, but the IRS do not like backdoor 'patches' when an upfront agreement
existed for any 'earned' money (wages). Also, having to file a 1099 for every state (country) the money was earned in would not be pleasant.

And also, there are state laws governing businesses in regards to how long
they have to pay an individual after the pay is 'earned'. The laws can vary from state to state.

For your own sake and protection, I think you should consult an accountant.

(not trying to be the voice of doom, but I was the top payroll person for Learjet and Glasco, a subsidiary, for 5 years, with locations in 16 different states and 3 foreign countries for 5,500 employees)
Click to expand...


Thanks for your input. I will discuss this with my accountant, AFTER I have been paid. No check today!
 
jay helfert said:
I will be the one getting taxed on Cliff's winnings. Maybe you didn't read in my post that I had to give my social security number, among other info.
Click to expand...

I will address this generally, because I am sure Jay is taking all the appropriate steps. People who don't know what they are doing end up getting screwed in situations like this, but Jay has been around the block and I'm sure is protecting himself.

I think there is a special IRS form for cases such as these, designating percents of outgoing payments. The resulting tax liability on the person originally receiving ALL the money is lessened via this document. Of course, you are providing the IRS with a paper trail, so whoever you write on that sheet had better be careful come tax time.

I do not know what form number it is, but I'm sure I could find out.

- Steve
 
Well, this sucks! Let's all hope that it really is administrative and part of growing pains. I sure hope Jay and everyone else who may be owed money is paid promptly. My $1000 won't be going to any qualifiers until I hear otherwise.

John
 
I would venture a guess that in this situation, a backer (Jay) is in essence the same thing as a manager. All singers, bands, actors....they all have a manager and depending on the contract, the manager gets certain percentages.

I don't think the backer/player pay is as difficult as some of you are making it out to be. It's nothing that a little bit of paperwork and/or contract won't fix. ;)

Jay, I hope things work out.
 
Steve Lipsky said:
...I do not know what form number it is, but I'm sure I could find out.
Click to expand...

I'm not an accountant by any means, but I do pay free-lancers, who are not EMPLOYEES, from time to time. I have no contracts with the free-lancers. At the end of the year, before January 31st, each one of the free-lancers receives a Form 1099.

If the taxes are paid by both parties, the person who wrote the 1099 and the person who received the 1099, then all is well in IRS land. However, if one of the recipients of a 1099 does not pay their taxes due to Uncle Sam, the IRS will send a notification to the person who sent out the 1099's to contact the IRS and not pay out any further monies to the free-lancer until their taxes due are resolved. This is my understanding of how the Tax Code works as it pertains to free-lancers.

Cliff Joyner, IMHO, is a free-lancer to Jay Helfert in the above-referenced example.

JAM
 
Taxes: real simple. Jay pays taxes on his income and Cliff pays taxes on his. Jay and Cliff are a partnership. After expenses the profit is income and taxable.

John
 
I found this in the "Q and A" section of the IPT website:

QUESTION:
When do the players get paid?

Answer:
This is very funny to me. The pool world is notorious for charlatans, promoters who don’t pay, and promises that aren’t kept. In my world of business, when a businessman tells me he’s going to do something and we shake hands, that means it’s going to happen. In the world of pool, when someone says they are going to do something it means he’s probably going to rob you! I’m joking of course, but there is a running line in pool that goes, “Winning the tournament was easy. Getting paid is the hard part!”

I find it amusing that so many players are concerned with actually getting a check from a tournament. Imagine if I put on a tournament and didn’t pay the players. I get enough criticism in the press. That’s all I would need is some more! Ha, ha. I write this with a big smile on my face because it is so amusing to me that players are concerned about getting paid. But to put all the fears at rest, when I had my first tournament with LoreeJon Jones and Mike Sigel I decided to bring out the money in cash - $150,000.00 in cash money and put it so that everyone could see that Mike actually got the money! Of course, right after the tournament since Mike and I are friends he said, “I don’t want to carry this money around, get rid of it. Give me a check later.” Ha, ha.

So, to make sure that the reputation of pool is actually enhanced from its previous dubious, less than stellar reputation, all the players at IPT events will be paid at the end of each round. We are working out the details and logistics, but the bottom line is when a player comes to the event, and if they lose and are knocked out of the tournament, the next day they will be able to walk into the cashier’s office and get a check for their tournament winnings. This is very exciting, especially with the upcoming IPT King of the Hill Invitational as the $1 million in prize money will be paid out on the spot. It certainly will be a very good Christmas for all 43 lucky players. And then, 30 days later, they come back for another payday at the end of January.

I would imagine that the players who haven't been paid are not finding this very amusing at all.

Of course, it only mentions IPT Events and says nothing about "Qualifiers", but I would think that the policy would (or should) be consistent across the board. Especially after he made such a big deal of pointing out the shortcomings of other tours involving slow payments and how the IPT was going to eliminate that problem.
 
The only ones who would be paid at a qualifier would be the ones who won money for making the 8 or running 6/7 racks. The others won entry to the IPt or entry to another qualifier.

There are pictures of members receiving checks for the KOTH on his website.
 
jjinfla said:
The only ones who would be paid at a qualifier would be the ones who won money for making the 8 or running 6/7 racks. The others won entry to the IPt or entry to another qualifier.

There are pictures of members receiving checks for the KOTH on his website.
Click to expand...

Jake,

Cliff ran seven racks in Boston and made the Eight on the break. Total win was listed as $5,500.
 
Kind of reminds me of a friend who came to me with a problem. He said he was working for a home builder friend of mine and was making $15 an hour. Only problem was, he haden't been paid for 3 months. I told him that wasn't right and he could go to work for me at $30 an hour. He said "really" and I said "hell yes man" as long as I don't have to pay ya!
Purdman
jay, please keep us informed.
 
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