Is a Straight Stroke All That Important?

[lfigueroa]

Those are good examples of straight strokes at extreme angles - they'd be miscues on a CB. Do you think it matters whether they're straight or swooping hits?

The cue ball only "knows" at what angle the tip is moving at the moment it makes contact - nothing tells it what direction the tip was moving even a microsecond before contact. So the tip's effect on the CB is exactly the same whether you start with the stick angled at 10 degrees or get to the 10-degree angle by swooping your stroke.

Here's a test: Use a marked cue ball (maybe an object ball) with the marking facing you so you can confirm that you hit the same spot on the CB with a normal "parallel" english stroke and your "swipe" stroke. Be sure the CB goes in the same direction both ways (perpendicular into a rail) at about the same speed (so it stops about the same distance), and see how much angle change you get. If you really test this carefully I promise you won't get more spin one way or the other.

pj
chgo

I dan't know. I kinda agree with Hu. I don't have any science or experiments, just the fact that when I'm playing really well, I always feel like I can go through the cue ball at different angles of attack for greater/more accurate CB movement.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Swipping is one of those things that will be argued till the end of time. All I can say about these cuing techniques is if they don't have any validity then why do we see them at work with the pros? Ceulemans swipes the ball for max English. I watched this standing 1 foot from the table. Sang Lee used an up stroke for many many shots. So did Gilbert. I know the CB is gone 1/10000 sec and only the contact point matters. Then why all the other stuff. Loose grip for instance.

Hu My opinion on your comment is, when the cue comes in @ an angle other than straight to the shot you've changed the center of the ball in relation to the shot. As Pat mentioned the miss cue limits are the same. Think of the jump shot. Dead center ball moves toward the top of the CB. Nothing different on this cueing across the equator.

Harry Simms used to teach an ascending and descending stroke for 3C.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Pool players ESPECIALLY Gamblers..apply percentages to every part of pool "whats my make percentage on this shot vs that safety"... .. "I need a handicap to get my chance of beating this guy to at least 50/50 or a little in my favor"

but practice and mechanics are somehow exempt from this type of thinking.. "I don't need practice... I need the 7 ball" or "why do I shoot sidearm and jerky? wellll uhhhhh... because I always have"

you might be able to ride a galloping horse past the table and strike the Cue Ball Jousting style.. but I'm guessing that would be a pretty low percentage technique..

stroking straight is the highest percentage method for hitting the CB accurately..

and anyone who says otherwise is being intentionally obtuse

I'm not trying to be obtuse and I might even agree that a straight stroke is the best way to hit the CB accurately. But my point is that since there is so much more to pool than hitting a CB where you want, a somewhat crooked stroke that is consistent and gives the player predictable outcomes for the OBs and CB might be a good trade off.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

The most important thing is to make the cue ball do what you want it to do.

The guys with beautiful straight stokes like Earl are great to watch but most of us don't live in that world.

Right. Few of us will ever achieve perfect form and perhaps we should not even aspire to it.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Banks]

I don't have any science or experiments, just the fact that when I'm playing really well, I always feel like I can go through the cue ball at different angles of attack for greater/more accurate CB movement.

Lou Figueroa

For whatever reason, my draw shot is inconsistent compared to some of my friends that don't play as well. To compensate, especially for closer shots, I tend to increase my angle to create a downward motion for draw instead of simply hitting straight at the bottom of the ball. I suppose, in the same usage as a masse, I'm compensating for a poor draw stroke by using the table's resistance to impart a stronger draw spin.

If you were to cue upwards for a topspin shot, wouldn't the upward motion ease the friction of the felt and allow for a hold of the spin until contact?

 

[John Brumback]

I'm guessing that it's probably the holy grail of pool but I don't think you have to have, as long as your consitent. John B.

 

[Scaramouche]

Scaramouche:

Interesting that you offered-up two cases/scenarios that have nothing to do with Americans, as "evidence" of Americans' penchant for long-standing feuds.

Correct me if I'm wrong, or not catching upon a certain fact you're trying to get across, but the Irish "fighting each other" is a misclassification. We're talking about Northern Ireland, right? Although many classify this as a religious war (Roman Catholics vs. Protestants), it was actually a fight against colonialism, in what's known as "The Troubles." As we know, the Brits have a history of causing revolution in other countries, all in the name of "your country is mine, mine, mine."

So in reality, the Brits have a penchant for causing long-standing feuds as well -- and the death toll for those feuds greatly outnumber any by our mutual countries (USA and Canada) combined, by millions, over the course of millennia, to boot.

TheBannedOne's notion of, "It is extraordinary to those of us not from that background. And disturbing..." is extremely hilarious, when you think about it. Talk about irony on a grand scale!

-Sean

The Irish have been fighting for so long nobody not involved cares about the merits of the brawl.

Permit me to pontificate more.
Americans have personal feuds.
For proof observe any number of threads around here.

Other places the splits are more general, Orange vs Green. Greeks vs Turks, and you are right, many are religious,

The Black Donnellys were Roman Catholics living on the"Roman Line".

"The farther one lives down Roman Line Road, the tougher one is. And the Donnellys live at the end of the road."

"From the time they could toddle, I taught my seven sons to be foin fist-and-club fighters. Sure, an' 'tis I who taught them how to gouge, bite off an ear and crack in a head with a club; showed them the best way to send a fast punch to the chin."

As for the Brits, it was in India that British soldiers dreamed up snooker, so I will forgive them.

All things considered, a flame war is a much more civilized response when one encounters those with unacceptable opinions.

 

[Island Drive]

I don't get where some people think they invented this game. It's only a stupid game. Not many if any of you are making a living playing and if you were trying probably wouldn't get any action because your assholes. OK, Ifeel better , now back to our regularlly scheduled arguement

If pool is a stupid game, then tell us what game is Not stupid?

 

[Island Drive]

I'm guessing that it's probably the holy grail of pool but I don't think you have to have, as long as your consitent. John B.

I've alway thought Buddy Hall and his coke bottle routine, exemplified swingin' straight. Don't remember him doing much else, probably why it always looked simple and in slow motion.

 

[sfleinen]

Right, right. Stationary pivot point at the elbow. Anything else would be detrimental.

Lou Figueroa
who knew

To be fair, Lou, we now know that a lot of what Willie "taught" in the little red book, 1.) isn't what he himself used (what he shows/poses in the pictures for, isn't what you'll see from him in real life play), and 2.) isn't what is commonly taught as "standard template" for foundational play.

There are several good examples of this, but two off the top of my head are his grip and his bridge -- what he used in real life, and what he poses/shows in the pictures, are two different things.

I wouldn't go as far as to say "detrimental" either. As long as you can pivot at the shoulder (drop the elbow) perfectly in-line with the shot everytime the cue makes contact with the cue ball, there's nothing "detrimental" about that at all. The problem is that's a variable -- that's something else that can go wrong, rather than keeping the movement simple by moving only one joint in the arm. The shoulder is a ball-and-socket joint, able to move in any direction; the elbow is a hinge that only moves in the direction of the cue delivery.

It's not a "detrimental" question as much as it is a "keeping it simple" question.

I drop my elbow, too, when I'm really powering into the cue ball -- it's the natural after effect of the momentum of the forearm moving forward at high speed. The elbow drop is not as pronounced as, say, Mike Sigel (mine is only about one or two inches at the maximum, whereas Mike's whole arm almost "folds down onto" the cue).

I get what you're saying, though -- the "effort" of trying to pin the elbow can take away from the sensitivity in how hard the cue ball is hit. I guess the trick is to find that happy medium.

-Sean

 

[Banks]

If pool is a stupid game, then tell us what game is Not stupid?

Greetings Professor Drive.

Would you like to play a game?

 

[Scaramouche]

Right, right. Stationary pivot point at the elbow. Anything else would be detrimental.

Lou Figueroa
who knew

And when you have incorporated Mosconi's elbow drop with McCready's side arm and Bustamante's preparation you will have the bare essentials of the American stoke as it is seen on display in pool rooms throughout the U.S.A.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I dan't know. I kinda agree with Hu. I don't have any science or experiments, just the fact that when I'm playing really well, I always feel like I can go through the cue ball at different angles of attack for greater/more accurate CB movement.

Lou Figueroa

By swiping your tip across the ball?

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

If you were to cue upwards for a topspin shot, wouldn't the upward motion ease the friction of the felt and allow for a hold of the spin until contact?

How would you cue upwards? With the butt over the rail it's almost impossible to not hit downward on the CB, even when using maximum follow.

pj
chgo

 

[softshot]

I'm not trying to be obtuse and I might even agree that a straight stroke is the best way to hit the CB accurately. But my point is that since there is so much more to pool than hitting a CB where you want, a somewhat crooked stroke that is consistent and gives the player predictable outcomes for the OBs and CB might be a good trade off.

Lou Figueroa

if you cant cue the ball properly EVERYTHING else becomes irrelevant

 

[sfleinen]

How would you cue upwards? With the butt over the rail it's almost impossible to not hit downward on the CB, even when using maximum follow.

pj
chgo

Pat:

He removes the pocket castings and backs from the pockets, and cues through the openings at the cue ball.

-Sean

 

[Banks]

How would you cue upwards? With the butt over the rail it's almost impossible to not hit downward on the CB, even when using maximum follow.

pj
chgo

On those big 9'ers, sometimes you've got plenty of room to not have the rail in the way. Maybe it's just more of a level hit, being confused as an upwards hit since I'm not as accustomed to playing on the big tables. I'll try to pay more attention when attempting such a hit next time, if I can remember. But, I have no doubt that my draw can fail, so I jack up to alter the CB's equator.

 

[Banks]

Pat:

He removes the pocket castings and backs from the pockets, and cues through the openings at the cue ball.

-Sean

On some of the tables I've seen, that could possibly work.

 

[lfigueroa]

For whatever reason, my draw shot is inconsistent compared to some of my friends that don't play as well. To compensate, especially for closer shots, I tend to increase my angle to create a downward motion for draw instead of simply hitting straight at the bottom of the ball. I suppose, in the same usage as a masse, I'm compensating for a poor draw stroke by using the table's resistance to impart a stronger draw spin.

If you were to cue upwards for a topspin shot, wouldn't the upward motion ease the friction of the felt and allow for a hold of the spin until contact?

I was talking to a top pro a few tournaments ago (I know this going to sound nuts, but I don't remember who) and he said, "Yes, you've got to add a little elevation to your draw shots."

Lou Figueroa
maybe it'll come to me

 

[lfigueroa]

I'm guessing that it's probably the holy grail of pool but I don't think you have to have, as long as your consitent. John B.

Thanks, John.

Lou Figueroa