Is a Straight Stroke All That Important?

John Brumback said:
Probably but mostly due to my method that I use when banking.The cue angle as it goes into or through the shot has alot to do with it also.I try to keep my cue level unless the shot calls for me to manipulate my stroke angle which can have a dramatic effect on the outcome of the shot.That's another reason you need to have a bunch of different bridges to use.Most people that I work with have some kind of a jacked up cueing action that I have to fix and then I have show them how to use different bridges before we move on to playing good pool.:) Thanks for the good words. John B.

Tip:spend more time practicing and less time thinking and worrying about the whys and watch great players very very close.Oh and practice alot,hehe.
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Thx,
And one more question. What aspect of Bugs or Eddie Taylors game was way different than yours?
 
I remember when pool used to be fun! Almost all of us will never go pro and some people (probably myself included) can overcome a soso stroke with a good eye/natural talent. What are your goals? Do you want to be the best you can be or are you looking to just improve and play recreationally or do you not really care? I would agree the straight stroke is just one part of the whole process and without it you may not be able to pinpoint other weaknesses that you are repeatedly doing...but once again you can overcome this occasionally with mental toughness/natural ability.

I remember when I watched myself on video and I saw how poor my fundamentals were and I wondered how the heck was I able to play as well as I did with such poor fundys...well I was blessed with some natural talent. When I corrected that part of my game it made it easier to spot other errors and even though I was inconsistant still since it was a complete overhaul of my process/stroke, I did find that when the stroke was straight the confidence was higher and I was playing better....so I guess it can't hurt to try to improve in this area :grin:.
 
Same Page

Jim,

Actually seems like we are very much on the same page, just saying things a little differently. Each of the englishes requires a different amount of compensation, easily done with a different aimpoint.

I went to the pool hall this morning equipped with a sheet of notebook hole reinforcement donuts so I could try exactly the same shot over and over using all three englishes. Aim using each english was more different than expected but after shooting the shot with a certain english a few times I could drop down on the proper line and shoot the shot with any of the three englishes with no further adjustment at all so the original angle was maintained. As I recalled from earlier testing some years ago, all three styles of english and all three angles pocketed balls just fine and all gave me the same cue ball path as closely as could be referenced by diamonds on a table eight feet away. That was my point, that all three methods of applying spin are different and that all three can get the job done.

After putting it to the test again this morning it would be pointless for me to debate theory, I'm satisfied that anyone can be a top player using any one of these three methods. I found pure back hand english the hardest to use but I suspect that someone who used it all the time would feel the opposite.

There doesn't have to be a winner or loser in these discussions. Easy to get confused over common language with different meanings to different people. One person has used a term one way for years, somebody else has used it differently. Parallel english, slipstroke, masse shot, double hit, we often find we are using the same words as someone else but not meaning the same thing to the lasting confusion of all!

I much enjoyed our discussion and it benefited me by making me have to think about other ways of expressing myself. Made me have to look at how I really apply english too, mostly HAMB.

Hu




Jal said:
Hu, with this post and then #257, I get what your saying, and agree (for what it's worth). It is possible to shoot the same object ball into the same pocket with any one of the three orientations schematically illustrated in your picture.

If a cue's intrinsic pivot point is 10" from the tip, with an apparent tip offset of 1/4R (half of max english), the difference in the cueball's initial direction, comparing parallel vs. backhand english, would be about 1.44 degrees. With a CB-OB separation of 18", this, by itself, without swerve compensation, would be the difference between a 20 degree cut and a 33 degree cut! Obviously, the amount of swerve (which one amongst your many paths) is crucial.

Our point (at least mine) would be that IF you were consciously thinking about the cueball's initial direction, having already sized up the amount of swerve, you would then want the cue's intrinsic pivot point lying on the line going through the center of the cueball in that direction (whether you thought about it or not and however you got it there). However, I think you're using the terms "backhand english," "parallel english" and "fronthand english" as defined relative to, say, the cueball-ghostball line, rather than the CB's initial/desired direction off the tip. Without getting into who's right or wrong, I believe that's been the major source of our mutual confusion or disagreement.

Or, I'm full of it...either way.

Jim
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FranCrimi said:
Not only that Lou, but we're always discovering new things in pool. Today's 'crooked' may very well turn out to be tomorrow's genius. Never rule anyone's style out, especially if it brings them success.

If it's wrong, it won't hold up over time.
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Agreed, Fran. Over the years I have seen far too many successful styles of play to believe everyone has to look the same at the table -- there are just so many styles that work it's insane to say you *have* to use this stroke, this pause, this grip, this eye, whatever.

There are too many guys out there that can dismantle you doing just the opposite.

Lou Figueroa
 
ShootingArts said:
Lou,

I think we both know that a consistent stroke is far more important than a straight stroke. There are very good players that set up to one side of where they think they are. It takes a little compensation to cut right or cut left depending on which side they set up on. They have shot like this for many years and have adapted. Works just fine for them.

A lot of people have a little crook to their final stroke and don't hit center ball when they extend their motion through the cue ball location too. I set up a shot for the player to hit center ball on the cue ball and make a shot a year or two ago. I flagged down passing players as they went by and got them to try the shot instructing them to hit center ball. Shortstops, A players, B players, not one hit exactly center ball trying the shot over and over until I told them the object was to hit the cue ball dead center. Then most could do it. All quickly made the adjustments to make the shot after a few tries when they weren't hitting center ball though.

Interestingly there were a few bangers that hit dead center of the cue ball every single time from the first shot. Every one of them looked at the cue ball last as quite a few pro's do. Ask people which ball they look at last and almost all will tell you the object ball and honestly believe it. Video often shows a shift to the cue ball at the last instant however. Saw the same disconnect in other sports too. What people think they do and what they do are often two different things.

Hu
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Hu, excellent points.

One of the great things about going and playing in some big events is that you get to sit table side and get an up close and personal look at how some of the top players do things. I have often sat looking "right down the barrel" as some pro executed (usually me) a shot and seen that many of them have a less than perfect stroking motion. Doesn't mean they can't go out and run 2000 though.

Lou Figueroa
 
BasementDweller said:
Hmmm. I guess it boils down to two different schools of thought:

1. Control the balls and the body will follow. This is what I think a lot of pool players do and it can be very effective. Like most people this is what I did when I first started playing. But a few years back I realized I was focusing on the wrong thing. Now I do:

2. Control the body and the balls will follow. This has really helped my game a lot. As strange as this may sound, I don't worry about the balls all that much anymore. I'm more concerned with my body and by extension the cue stick. A big part of this for me is straight cueing.

Changing my focus from something I had very little control over (the balls) to something I have nearly total control over (my body & stick) really helped my game. Of course, I don't have much of a resume and I'm just another 10-15 hour a week guy that's trying to get better. When I find something that works for me I can't help but share it with others on this same journey.

Anyway, another interesting thread Lou. Keep them coming.
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I think you're on the right track -- focusing on what your body is doing (or not) and working on making that consistent, will probably bring more benefit than many other avenues. I'm just saying that if you come upon a PSR that puts the balls in pockets and makes the cue ball behave, straightness be dammed.

Glad youze is enjoying the thread.

Lou Figueroa
 
Scaramouche said:
To get back to the original question:

Is a Straight Stroke All That Important?

For Americans playing on a barbox with 5 inch pockets - NO

Try Russian Pyramid billiards and see if your theories work.

Hypnoses should always be tested in a variety of conditions before they are considered valid. :D

Have to get back to the Canadian Championships now.
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"No Russian Pyramid, no snooker, no bowling alley. Just pool... nothing else, this is Ames, mister."

Lou Figueroa
with apologies to
Sidney Carroll
 
moving parts

lfigueroa said:
I think you're on the right track -- focusing on what your body is doing (or not) and working on making that consistent, will probably bring more benefit than many other avenues. I'm just saying that if you come upon a PSR that puts the balls in pockets and makes the cue ball behave, straightness be dammed.

Glad youze is enjoying the thread.

Lou Figueroa
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A long straight stroke has a lot of moving parts to keep it straight both vertically and horizontally. Letting it move around at either end, extreme limit of backstroke or follow through is far more natural and has zero effect on the shot. Although there are many straight strokes in pool if I had to bet on who has the straightest stroke I'd bet on Allen Hopkins who also has probably the shortest stroke in pool! That little jab stroke seems straight as a die.

Next time you are playing a really heavy guy with a long follow through watch where his tip stops. If he is right handed I'll bet it stops offline to the left, vice-versa for a left hander. No effect on his shot making skills, neither is the curve at the back of his stroke if he has a long back stroke.

When I was a teenager there was a twelve midnight to four AM bowling special. I'd drop my younger brother off at the bowling alley and go play pool until the bar closed at two and then bowl, lightly lubricated of course! Just slinging balls I could bowl one-eighties and one-nineties, bearing down I could break two hundred almost any time. I used a three long step approach and hummed a sixteen pound ball down the alley. When I started LSU freshmen got the second day of registration scraps and the only PE's I could take were golf or bowling. Being wise beyond my years I figured I was far better off to choose a sport where the ball came back to you than one you had to go chase the damned ball all over hell and creation, rain or shine.

They taught a four step approach. From years of conditioning my body knew the approach was completely out of time and I would throw in weird skips and stuff trying to get my approach back in time. I also would hit my right leg so solidly that I sent it halfway down the alley sometimes. Fortunately, still attached to my very red-faced body. The instructor wouldn't allow me to use a three step approach and I was one of the very worst bowlers in a very large class. After just a very few weeks my average was in the one-teens or twenties and I was never able to bowl again, three step approach or four!

Moral to that story is that if you are a solid pool player now, leave your stroke the hell alone and give anyone who tries to correct it for you a good stiff poke in the chops!

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
A long straight stroke has a lot of moving parts to keep it straight both vertically and horizontally. Letting it move around at either end, extreme limit of backstroke or follow through is far more natural and has zero effect on the shot.. So, if your playing well, leave your stroke the hell alone and give anyone who tries to correct it for you a good stiff poke in the chops!

Hu
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Totally Agree Hu,.. For verification, look at "Loopy"..AKA Jim Furyck, or Lee Trevino, or Arnold Palmer...There are many more very skilled players at golf...then there are perfect swingers (ie. Ben Hogan or Fred Couples.)

Just as in pool, there are many, many VERY capable players, who lack the precision-like stroke, of an Ed Kelly or Marvin Henderson...Hopkins, and Ronnie Allen come to mind..as well as moi..I'll take looking bad, and playing solid, ANY DAY...over perfect mechanics...(gets you more action too !)..:wink:

PS. However there are notable exceptions. Should you, after several decades of trying real hard to learn pool, STILL find yourself
stuck in mediocrity (like JoeyA, or John Barton,)...it may behoove you to try every f-ing "AIMING SYSTEM" on the planet..:D
























...........................................................................JK guys (I think) :p
 
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lfigueroa said:
"No Russian Pyramid, no snooker, no bowling alley. Just pool... nothing else, this is Ames, mister."

Lou Figueroa
with apologies to
Sidney Carroll
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In my country we have a more ecumenical attitude.:grin::grin::grin:

For example, Brittany Bryant, 2008 - 2010 World Junior Girls 9-Ball Champion played at the 2012 Cambridge Invitational Pro/Am Snooker Tournament.

My town has produced both a World Snooker Champion and a World 9-Ball Champion.

This World 9-Ball Champion won the Canadian Snooker Championship in the past two years. Perhaps his stroke may be of interest to some readers of this thread.:grin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7HEw_KAYUA
 
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all I got to say

Scaramouche said:
In my country we have a more ecumenical attitude.:grin::grin::grin:

For example, Brittany Bryant, 2008 - 2010 World Junior Girls 9-Ball Champion played at the 2012 Cambridge Invitational Pro/Am Snooker Tournament.

My town has produced both a World Snooker Champion and a World 9-Ball Champion.

This World 9-Ball Champion won the Canadian Snooker Championship in the past two years. Perhaps his stroke may be of interest to some readers of this thread.:grin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7HEw_KAYUA
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All I got to say is his momma dresses him funny when he plays snooker!

Hu
 
Their masters dress them funny!

Scaramouche said:
Try that line on a Scottish soldier in full regalia and you'll find out why they're called 'the ladies from hell'.
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Their masters dress them funny! Wearing a kilt into battle was something the english dreamed up.

If I dug back far enough there is almost certainly a regional or clan tartan that I could wear from that side of the family.

Hu
 
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