Is anything sacred any more?

RocketQ said:
Sheldon,
Right now I am dealing with a vendor that will not sell to a player. You must be a cue maker or repairman and have the credentials to back it up. Too many bad things start to happen when profit margins on supplies / materials get deminished. What ultimately it does is drive the little guy out of business. I know this in my day job. The guys with the deepest pockets win. Once again all hail the almighty buck or fraction of it.
IMO if retailers or vendors wanted to regain their profits and help out our industry make the people buying the materials come up with proof that they are not some Joe Shmow off the street. At the same time makers have to do the same. This is not somethig that would happen over night but like my dad said "All good things take time"...
Click to expand...

IMO if retailers or vendors wanted to regain their profits and help out our industry make the people buying the materials come up with proof that they are not some Joe Shmow off the street. At the same time makers have to do the same. This is not somethig that would happen over night but like my dad said "All good things take time"...

How does this help profits for vendors? Maybe venders should provide discounts, which they do. Joe Shmoe isnt going to buy in bulk. Vendors have different pricing for quanity purchased.

Also perhaps all makers should only be allowed to sell to billiard retailers only. Not Joe Shmoe. This hurst business and profits for everyone.
 
Bubs wholesale and retail. if cm could buy wholesale then leave the retail to the everyday consumer. they still get the big profit margin from the consumer and still make money on us. Just takes proof of proprietorship.
 
RocketQ said:
Bubs wholesale and retail. if cm could buy wholesale then leave the retail to the everyday consumer. they still get the big profit margin from the consumer and still make money on us. Just takes proof of proprietorship.
Click to expand...

Would you really want this? Be careful what you ask for! Proff of proprietorship ie Tax Idenification number. I wonder how many little guys out there are not reporting.

Also the venders are making the bulk of there profits off of the CM's. The joe Schmoes are not enough to bother with.
 
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i dont think any supplier will ever cut buisness just to sell to cue makers. they do things like bulk discounts and minimum orders to help weed out all the b.s.

as stated before i pay for labor. i dont call paul mottey to make me a cue then haggle prices. in other words i wont expect a 1400$ cue for the price of a 400$ cue. the average player has no clue what goes into making cues. sometimes its fusterating but i try to laugh and chalk it up to ignorance
 
There is virtually no product that we as consumers buy that does not cost significantly more than its raw materials. Take a car, from $15k to $150k, if you broke it down to just the cost of steel, aluminum, plastics, leather, rubber, etc. the cost I am sure for most is less than $1k. Everything is about the labor, machinery and tooling, and volume. If You want a high production lower end Hyundai you pay $15k. If you want a handmade exotic $150k and up.

For those of you that look at a cue and think well the materials only cost about $80-100 dollars so why so much? Go buy yourself a lathe, tablesaw, bandsaw, mill, all the fixturing and tooling, materials, etc. and many many years of experience and make yourself a cue.

Troy
 
RocketQ said:
Sheldon,
Right now I am dealing with a vendor that will not sell to a player. You must be a cue maker or repairman and have the credentials to back it up. Too many bad things start to happen when profit margins on supplies / materials get deminished. What ultimately it does is drive the little guy out of business. I know this in my day job. The guys with the deepest pockets win. Once again all hail the almighty buck or fraction of it.
IMO if retailers or vendors wanted to regain their profits and help out our industry make the people buying the materials come up with proof that they are not some Joe Shmow off the street. At the same time makers have to do the same. This is not somethig that would happen over night but like my dad said "All good things take time"...
Click to expand...
The line between wholesale and retail has been all but erased in a lot of areas. It does take a huge toll on the little guys, when you are used to selling things at a good markup, and all of a sudden people can find the same stuff for much cheaper, of course they are going to go the cheap route. I don't see any real solution, other than imposing a bunch of rules and restrictions and laws which I don't really agree with. Retailers have to find new ways to create value and income.
 
Troy Mckune said:
There is virtually no product that we as consumers buy that does not cost significantly more than its raw materials. Take a car, from $15k to $150k, if you broke it down to just the cost of steel, aluminum, plastics, leather, rubber, etc. the cost I am sure for most is less than $1k. Everything is about the labor, machinery and tooling, and volume. If You want a high production lower end Hyundai you pay $15k. If you want a handmade exotic $150k and up.

For those of you that look at a cue and think well the materials only cost about $80-100 dollars so why so much? Go buy yourself a lathe, tablesaw, bandsaw, mill, all the fixturing and tooling, materials, etc. and many many years of experience and make yourself a cue.

Troy
Click to expand...

Guess what the raw materials for this checkering job cost?

Mvc-001f.jpg


from: http://www.checkering.com/my_photos.htm

This Winchester "A" Carving and checkering cost $320. Material cost?

Perhaps a checkering cutter, perhaps not. A carbide cutter, which will last 50 times longer that a regular cutter, goes for between $30 and $50, and can be used for a long, long, looooooong time.

When I checkered gunstocks years ago, there were no carbide cutters that I knew of, and I'd easily get 3, 4, 5 gunstocks worth of checkering patterns, typically 4 per gunstock out of a single cutter. In other words, the cost of the cutter is negligible in terms of material cost.

Thus, the value is in the artistry, and technical skill to perform the checkering.

BTW, checkering is a very difficult thing to do well. And the beauty of the results speaks for itself, and can command a fair price.

Same thing with good cues.

Flex
 
videos

bubsbug said:
Would you really want this? Be careful what you ask for! Proff of proprietorship ie Tax Idenification number. I wonder how many little guys out there are not reporting.

Also the venders are making the bulk of there profits off of the CM's. The joe Schmoes are not enough to bother with.
Click to expand...
arent you the guy that had the bootleg copy of the cuemaking videos ?
and called to ask question not even paying for them?
 
Thanks for the input guys. It was nice to see a civil thread on here.
Flex great work...

Edit : when I submitted ^ was not there.
Higher road guys this place would grow with leaps and bounds.
 
RocketQ said:
Thanks for the input guys. It was nice to see a civil thread on here.
Flex great work...

Edit : when I submitted ^ was not there.
Higher road guys this place would grow with leaps and bounds.
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I feel your angst, Rocket. Lack of civility has caused me to post less and less in this forum.

To the original gist of this thread..........I avoid discounting in every business that I'm involved in. If the customer wants to haggle, I'm sorry... their problem, not mine; go somewhere else. If your discount repairman, wannabe cuemaker, takes a couple of years longer than they said it would, tough cookies. I don't make promises that I can't keep and I don't give up the names of some of my suppliers. Some are well known and almost everybody knows their names (cheers ref.......lol).

On to larger fish........there are a lot of people selling cue parts and semi finished pieces in open forums. well and fine, but they are part of the problem. some guy selling cue forearms; customer buys it and wants me to "make" him a cue..........NO WAY ! I'm not putting any time and effort into an unknown forearm, just to have a cheapo customer talk bad about me because the cue doesn't hit right. "If so-and-so had done the job, it would have been right"....bullcrap.

Caveat Emptor......

I do believe there should be wholesale and a retail pricing in cue parts. Wood is another problem, but again...unless I know the wood's history, I just have to say "NO!" again. unless it's in my shop environment for over 2 years or I know the supplier, I won't touch it....too many variables to risk.

These problems exist across the whole spectrum in the business world. Wal Mart, Auto Zone, etc. came to town and the little guy got pushed out. Now John Q. Customer can't find what he needs in the discounters store 'cause they only stock and sell the "best/quickest" selling items.

Custom cuemakers are the "mom & pop" stores in the pool industry. we gotta adapt or "megacue" will convince the public that their product is custom and we will all be using aluminum cues again,,,lol !
 
Jackie I almost fell off of the stool..... Did you see the movie Mystery Alaska? The scene in the courtroom the local lawyer and the guy from priceworld got shot in the foot. "What the f a F of a s little bum f town is this anyway" ROFL
 
brianna187 said:
arent you the guy that had the bootleg copy of the cuemaking videos ?
and called to ask question not even paying for them?
Click to expand...

Im sorry, but No! You must have me confused with someone else.
 
Flex said:
Guess what the raw materials for this checkering job cost?

Mvc-001f.jpg


from: http://www.checkering.com/my_photos.htm

This Winchester "A" Carving and checkering cost $320. Material cost?

Perhaps a checkering cutter, perhaps not. A carbide cutter, which will last 50 times longer that a regular cutter, goes for between $30 and $50, and can be used for a long, long, looooooong time.

When I checkered gunstocks years ago, there were no carbide cutters that I knew of, and I'd easily get 3, 4, 5 gunstocks worth of checkering patterns, typically 4 per gunstock out of a single cutter. In other words, the cost of the cutter is negligible in terms of material cost.

Thus, the value is in the artistry, and technical skill to perform the checkering.

BTW, checkering is a very difficult thing to do well. And the beauty of the results speaks for itself, and can command a fair price.

Same thing with good cues.

Flex
Click to expand...
And didn't winchester go out of business?? I have one of their gun drills because of it.
 
I guess I shouldn't be surprised by the fact that there are many that could, and in my opinion, should chime in on this topic, and haven't. Maybe this is just another good reason there should be a password driven forum while keeping this one going for the general public to continue to "Ask The Cuemaker".

Gene
 
Cuedog said:
I guess I shouldn't be surprised by the fact that there are many that could, and in my opinion, should chime in on this topic, and haven't. Maybe this is just another good reason there should be a password driven forum while keeping this one going for the general public to continue to "Ask The Cuemaker".

Gene
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"Surprised" ?

What is there to say that has not already been said at least a dozen times here and in past threads.
The reason they do not "chime in" is because it is a dead horse! ... :deadhorse:

If a cue maker wants a private conversation there is the PM or the telephone.
Why would cue makers need a password protected area to talk about .... what?
 
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yeap!

What is there to say that has not already been said at least a dozen times here and in past threads.
The reason they do not "chime in" is because it is a dead horse! ... :deadhorse:

If a cue maker wants a private conversation there is the PM or the telephone.
Why would cue makers need a password protected area to talk about .... what?[/QUOTE]
 
WilleeCue said:
"Surprised" ?

What is there to say that has not already been said at least a dozen times here and in past threads.
The reason they do not "chime in" is because it is a dead horse! ...

If a cue maker wants a private conversation there is the PM or the telephone.
Why would cue makers need a password protected area to talk about .... what?
Click to expand...
I agree that those things can and are being used to communicate one on one, but this thread is about disclosing information to the layperson that many feel should be kept within.

While I may feel comfortable disclosing sources, materials, prices etc., to others in the industry, those same things are considered confidential by some companies and are not meant for the general public. I, for one, intend to respect their wishes.

A private forum allows us a third way to communicate these things. Keep in mind that I am not privy to your PMs and phone calls regarding things that may be of interest to me, but not necessarily private to you. Why not have the opportunity to share this info while at the same time, keep the ability to be private?

No losers in that scenario as I see it.

Gene
 
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You could just make a gentlemans agreement to not post source links or prices on the forum if it is going to upset everyone so bad. Or just agree to talk techniques and not sources. PM all sources. But then again that might be bad also. I say it is a no win either way, so I don't pretend to have the right answer. Someone could set up a private forum for cuemakers and have to get vouched for that you are indeed building or repairing cues to participate. Oh, that is right it has already been done.
 
Thank you to you all.

dave sutton said:
thats the nature of life. everyone wants something for nothing. i just made up a shaft for a guy. he was a friend so i did it cheap 100$ and fast and it came out perfect. like everything i make i tested it out. it hit a ton. after he played with it all day long he called me later that night and told me he wasnt happy. he wanted an ivory ferrule and red pad not black and 12mm:eek: . none of which was mentioned at the time. meanwhile the entire 10 days i had his cue he called me non stop and 10 different ppl told me he was talking about me having his cue too long. 10 dayyyyyyys.

finally fed up i called him back and said i will refund your money and give me back the shaft. no more favors. then i said do you really think you were getting a 12mm 30'' shaft with an ivory ferrule and moori tip for 100$. call anyome and they will have your cue god knows how long and will charge you 250$.


none of these specs were mentioned when he gave me the cue. which BTW WAS A 1ST EDITION predator. the second he said 12mm i would have giggled and said no thanks cant help ya

sry for venting.....
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Dave, I sympathize. I have designed, and commisioned Joe Baker to build me probably 7 cues......and counting. I have annoyed him in a friendly manner countless times, and I have always recognized when he's doing me a favor in terms of pricing. I think anytime someone starts out wanting a cue based on price, they are missing out on a valuable aspect of having a CUSTOM cue. I value the custom cue more so than a mass production club, because of the inherent value of the whole process, not just the end result. You generally speaking cannot ever replace the experience of participating in the design of your cue, having a open dialogue with it's maker, and then watching the whole thing come together. That IS truly priceless! Awhile back Joe allowed me to participate in the building of a couple of cues he is doing for my wife and I, which was no doubt far more frustrating for him, than it was for me. I really gained a whole new appreciation for the process, and it's painstaking nature, and Joe lost a few locks of hair which he pulled out himself after watching me! LOL, at any rate, my point was that most people have no idea, that there is an unimaginable amount of dedication, and precision, behind the "price tag" involved in a true custom cue. Does that mean every cue should cost $2000.00 or more, certainly not, but it does mean that the "price" should not generally be your first concern when wanting a CUSTOM cue. Thank you for all the hard work, and dedication that you guys put in to your work, most of the time it shows! You guys are artists in your own right, anyone who takes even a little time educating themselves about the process, knows the truest "cost" involved.......your time, effort, and the love of what you do. Thanks again.
 
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