Is billiards the toughest sport?

[eddieindetroit]

I think putting alone is as difficult as billiards. Putting is still only 70-80% of the game of golf though. Then you still have the other 20-25% of the game of golf and you are going to need some serious fitness for that.

I think it was Sports Illustrated that reported that T. Woods was pound for pound the strongest athlete on campus when he attended Stanford. I'm pretty sure Stanford had a top 5 in the country NCAA college football program while he was there.

Eddie

 

[Masayoshi]

LOL all you want at running a rack....you can't do any better in a game of pool. So, to compare - you'd have to go with an ace (hole in one), cuz you can't do any better on a hole....you can do better than a par. sorry. A round of golf (or a game if you want to put it that way) is 18 holes. A game of pool - depending on the game is making so many balls (or one particular ball). Sure, you can win a game of 9 ball with the break, but you don't end a round of golf with a hole in one on the first hole. So, my analogy of a perfect game of pool is not missing and winning (whether it be a run-out or win on the break) stands. You can't even say that 18 under par is a perfect game of golf....it's not perfect, and can be beaten.

being able to run out in pool given the opportunity IS basically par. if you cant run out or get safe consistently throughout multiple racks(or play perfectly as you seem to think) you are not playing at a high level of pool. and even if you can run out consistently and get safe, what really determines the champs is how they approach situations where there is no good shot, not how they run out. they all run out, just as all high level golfers will usually make par or better. in pool, beating par would be akin to taking games that your opponent was more likely to win.

also, a game of pool is not 1 rack...let me rephrase that, in pool, matches or games as you would say are decided by MULTIPLE racks, just as in golf, a round is comprised of MULTIPLE holes.

 

[enzo]

every sport's difficulty is dependent upon the competition you face, not on the sport itself. think about it, how could you rate a sport's difficulty level without considering the ability and skills of your opponents. hence, all major sports have about the same difficulty level. that is, there is NOT one sport that is easier to master than another.

if there is a new sport (say when snowboarding was first introduced), it could be classified as much "easier" because you may be the best in the world and yet not even be all that skilled because only a few people do it. anyway, that SHOULD settle it (but i know it wont cus people don't know when they hear something that is correct).

 

[Jimk]

I believe you missed his point. He isn't saying that par is good enough to win pro golf tournaments, he's saying that the margin for error in golf is greater than in pool. In golf you can make three poor shots on a hole and still scramble to make par, which means those three poor shots did not cost you the tournament. In pool if you make three poor shots in a match (and sometimes fewer than that), it can cost you the match and the tournament. I believe golf is the physically more difficult sport, but that there is more pressure at the top level in pool than in golf because mistakes in pool are much more costly than in golf.

Yeah, but you can't hit a golf ball, have it hit 2 trees and a sidewalk and go in.

 

[PoolBum]

On a side note, I see that many of you guys seem to think that 1 bad shot can't cause you to lose in golf. That proves you know nothing about top level golf. Tiger was interviewed yesterday after his round, they asked him how much difference there was between a guy who wins a tournament and a guy that finished T10 or worse. He said 1 or 2 shots is the difference.
1 shot in golf can cost you 3 strokes or more and if it's match play it costs you one hole or more the whole match if you are playing carry overs.

Of course one bad shot can cost you a golf tournament. One bad pitch can cost a team a World Series, one interception can cause a team the Super Bowl. That's not the same thing as saying that every shot in golf can cause you to lose the tournament though. Tiger Woods can make a poor shot on a hole and still make par, and lose no ground to a player who makes no bad shots on the same hole and also makes par. He can't win a tournament by making all pars, granted, but he can still win a tournament despite having a bunch of holes where he makes bad shots but still pars the hole. There is no such room for error in pool. How many mistakes did Corey Deuel make in his match against Bustamante? Very few that I could tell, and yet he lost what, 15-8? The cost of an error in pool is greater.

 

[BPG24]

Of course one bad shot can cost you a golf tournament. One bad pitch can cost a team a World Series, one interception can cause a team the Super Bowl. That's not the same thing as saying that every shot in golf can cause you to lose the tournament though. Tiger Woods can make a poor shot on a hole and still make par, and lose no ground to a player who makes no bad shots on the same hole and also makes par. He can't win a tournament by making all pars, granted, but he can still win a tournament despite having a bunch of holes where he makes bad shots but still pars the hole. There is no such room for error in pool. How many mistakes did Corey Deuel make in his match against Bustamante? Very few that I could tell, and yet he lost what, 15-8? The cost of an error in pool is greater.

A 1 on 1 match in pool is like playing match play or skins with carry overs.
Any error, even just one can cost you the match. Bustamante's break was the biggest difference in that match. It allowed him to get out.

It is the same thing as saying every shot in golf can cause you to lose. There is much more to it than just the bad shot. The bad shot can cost you multiple strokes and still leave you in a bad spot. Which could then cost you more strokes. It also stays on your mind for the rest of the round. I hope I don't have to explain why that could cause anyone to lose.


Besides, i don't know how many times I have seen top pros miss more than once in 1 rack. You act like they run out everytime. Maybe you missed the WPC this year

 

[PoolBum]

A 1 on 1 match in pool is like playing match play or skins with carry overs.
Any error, even just one can cost you the match. Bustamante's break was the biggest difference in that match. It allowed him to get out.

I'm comparing professional pool tournaments to professional golf tournaments. I think it would be harder for Tiger (or any golfer) to win as many majors if professional golf tournaments were match play.

 

[PoolBum]

Besides, i don't know how many times I have seen top pros miss more than once in 1 rack. You act like they run out everytime. Maybe you missed the WPC this year

Of course pros sometimes miss more than once in a rack. They also sometimes play an entire match almost perfectly. If Tiger has the lowest score by 1 stroke after 72 holes he wins the tournament, regardless of how many bad shots he made otherwise. In pool a player can shoot .940 three matches in row, then shoot .925 and lose to a guy who shoots .940, even if the other guy had made twice as many mistakes in the tournament up until then.

 

[BPG24]

Of course pros sometimes miss more than once in a rack. They also sometimes play an entire match almost perfectly. If Tiger has the lowest score by 1 stroke after 72 holes he wins the tournament, regardless of how many bad shots he made otherwise. In pool a player can shoot .940 three matches in row, then shoot .925 and lose to a guy who shoots .940, even if the other guy had made twice as many mistakes in the tournament up until then.

The big thing you are missing is that you can't shoot perfect in golf. It's impossible. The game is too hard, which is what we have been talking about. Pool is easier, I have run 4 racks of 9 ball in a row on a big table and am nowhere near playing with pros, or shortstops either for that matter.

The degree of difficulty has to be brought into the equation

 

[PoolBum]

The big thing you are missing is that you can't shoot perfect in golf. It's impossible. The game is too hard, which is what we have been talking about. Pool is easier, I have run 4 racks of 9 ball in a row on a big table and am nowhere near playing with pros, or shortstops either for that matter.

The degree of difficulty has to be brought into the equation

Well, no, we haven't been talking about which game is easier. I agree that golf is physically more difficult than pool. My quote in post 119 was this: "I believe golf is the physically more difficult sport, but that there is more pressure at the top level in pool than in golf because mistakes in pool are much more costly than in golf."

This is the post that you responded to, so the disagreement was about over which sport has more pressure and in which sport mistakes are more costly. My contention is that mistakes are more costly in pool than in golf. Your point that you can't shoot perfect in golf helps make my case. Since pool is a sport that can be played almost perfectly at times, mistakes are magnified. A scratch on the break might cost you 4 or 5 racks, or the match. Hell, if you're Mike Zuglan losing the lag to Mike Sigel might cost you the match in 14.1!

So, that's precisely my point. It's because pool can be played to such a high level of perfection that mistakes are more costly. There's greater room for error in golf than in pool.

 

[BPG24]

Well, no, we haven't been talking about which game is easier. I agree that golf is physically more difficult than pool. My quote in post 119 was this: "I believe golf is the physically more difficult sport, but that there is more pressure at the top level in pool than in golf because mistakes in pool are much more costly than in golf."

This is the post that you responded to, so the disagreement was about over which sport has more pressure and in which sport mistakes are more costly. My contention is that mistakes are more costly in pool than in golf. Your point that you can't shoot perfect in golf helps make my case. Since pool is a sport that can be played almost perfectly at times, mistakes are magnified. A scratch on the break might cost you 4 or 5 racks, or the match. Hell, if you're Mike Zuglan losing the lag to Mike Sigel might cost you the match in 14.1!

So, that's precisely my point. It's because pool can be played to such a high level of perfection that mistakes are more costly. There's greater room for error in golf than in pool.

I was saying that this whole thread is about which sport is tougher. The answer is golf. At least at the pro level.

I have never seen any pro pool player break and run out a set on TV. They play very short races on TV, this is why i think your opinion about mistakes being more crucial is false. When those guys start playing flawless often than I will agree with you. Watch top pool players play a ring game and you will see that when defense is taken out, and the object is to run out every shot, they still miss alot. Sometimes there are 2-3 misses in just one game.

 

[renard]

I was saying that this whole thread is about which sport is tougher. The answer is golf. At least at the pro level.

I have never seen any pro pool player break and run out a set on TV. They play very short races on TV, this is why i think your opinion about mistakes being more crucial is false. When those guys start playing flawless often than I will agree with you. Watch top pool players play a ring game and you will see that when defense is taken out, and the object is to run out every shot, they still miss alot. Sometimes there are 2-3 misses in just one game.

Go to the Golf forum they miss you there...

Don't try and convert us. The answer is not Golf. Take the fire and brimstone crusade to the Golf forum, you will be applauded there.

 

[trustyrusty]

Go to the Golf forum they miss you there...

Don't try and convert us. The answer is not Golf. Take the fire and brimstone crusade to the Golf forum, you will be applauded there.

you're right, this is a billiards forum, so, golf is certainly easier than any type of billiards. I'll go from forum to forum, and try to conform. On the NASCAR forum, I'll say LeMans racing is much easier, and vice versa....wouldn't want to differ in opinions - when in Rome. BTW, a differing opinion isn't trying to convert anyone. Are you trying to convert those who say golf is tougher? Maybe you are....I was just stating my opinions just like I thought the opposing viewpoint was.

Just one last comment, I have seen someone win an entire match in 9 ball without letting the opponent get to the table (race to 5 - 5 straight wins from the break - whether it was a break and run, a 9 on the break, a 4 - 9 combo, whatever...). That is a PERFECT match of pool, and I'll let you know when I see a PERFECT round of golf (18 aces).

 

[ugotda8]

Say it aint so!

Yeah, but you can't hit a golf ball, have it hit 2 trees and a sidewalk and go in.

This just aint so. Obviously I played way too much Golf in my younger days. Seen some crazy stuff on the Golf course.

Playing partner hooks his shot from 167 yards out...hits Tree, Cart Path, Flag (Wrapped the ball up breifly) and dropped strait down into the hole for Birdie.

I saw a guy ace a par 4 off a golf cart once. I agree that is much more rare than the lucky shot in pool, but it can and does happen.

AND...
I once watched Happy Gilmore green it off a porta potty.

That was nothing to his last putt on 18 though.

Anything is possible!!

I will say though, my opinion is very biased. I had the game of Golf almost mastered. Pool, much different story. I figure if you have the eye hand coordination to play golf at the level that I did, why would pool be so difficult for me at times.

Truth is...all Pro level sports are tough and the elite just have something special that most weekend duffers just don't have.

 

[sebas]

Golf.

I love both but I cant believe there is any question here. Try q school and then tell me pool is harder. example:

Go to Spyglass, stand on the third tee, Decide what club to hit Approximately 150 downhill, depending on the wind(big big variable) what do you hit 9,8,7,6,5,4. If that wind is howling you could have to hit a 4.HMMM

Go to a pool hall and have to hit a shot and you might have to adjust for humidity or maybe the difference between Gorina and simonis, if it is a bank then the different rubber on the bumpers might have an effect.

Pool is effectively Golf on a 4x8 area.

Although all sports are very competitive at the highest level.

BTW IMHO Auto racing cant be talked about in the same manner as some of the other sports because of the barriers to entry(ie. expense).

 

[atthecat]

My vote, pool. My first time on a golf course I birdied a hole and parred another one. First time on a pool table I maybe made 3 consecutive shots and they were probably hangers. It took me a long time to break and run in 9 ball.

 

[renard]

you're right, this is a billiards forum, so, golf is certainly easier than any type of billiards. I'll go from forum to forum, and try to conform. On the NASCAR forum, I'll say LeMans racing is much easier, and vice versa....wouldn't want to differ in opinions - when in Rome. BTW, a differing opinion isn't trying to convert anyone. Are you trying to convert those who say golf is tougher? Maybe you are....I was just stating my opinions just like I thought the opposing viewpoint was.

Just one last comment, I have seen someone win an entire match in 9 ball without letting the opponent get to the table (race to 5 - 5 straight wins from the break - whether it was a break and run, a 9 on the break, a 4 - 9 combo, whatever...). That is a PERFECT match of pool, and I'll let you know when I see a PERFECT round of golf (18 aces).

I'm not talking of conforming, I'm merely pointing out that my mind and others of the same opinion will not be changed no matter how many examples are given. I clearly stated that Billiards and Golf were the toughest out of all sports. I used examples of both sports to elevate why I though they deserved top billing. I also added that Billiards was harder by the slimmest of margins. You would think that in itself would allow for civil discussion but getting slammed on a pool forum by golfers is ridiculous.

How many golf courses have 18 holes of Par three? Another fine example in the argument!

 

[CaptainJR]

The way I'm reading this thread is that on any given day, a pool tournament can see a different winner. That is to say, if you had an identical field of the top 200 players in the world and played the event 50 different times, you'd likely see 50 different results.

Well, that has as much to do with the game as it does the participants. Afterall, we are playing short races in 9-ball. Once a degree of competence is reached, any player can be beat in a race to 9.

Exactly, That is why the winner of a 9 ball tournament is called (tournament name) 9 ball champion rather than (tournament name) pocket billiard champion. The thread is asking what the toughest game is? Heck we can't even determine what the toughest pool game is. I would think it is snooker. I wish snooker was more popular here in the United States. I've only played it a couple times a long time ago, but believe me, it is tough.

This is one reason it is so hard to compare pocket billiards with sports like golf, tennis, (don't forget table tennis, very tough at high level), racing, and other individually played sports. You can't really compare it with teams sports at all unless you switch to another definition of 'tough', then you might consider rugby or kick boxing. 8>) In all these other individual sport like golf and tennis there is only one game. The champion is the champion. Well, in golf there are a couple different scoring systems but the game is still played the same way. The only other sport I can think of off the top of my head that has so many games is darts.

I mentioned above about a different definition of tough. I was kidding around a little bit up there but I think this is what needs to be considered here. I think it would be very difficult to say what game is the toughest without saying something after that word. Like toughest mentally or toughest physically or toughest skill. If I were to rate this way I would say pool is the toughest mentally, tennis is the toughest physically and golf it the toughest skill.

 

[BPG24]

I'm not talking of conforming, I'm merely pointing out that my mind and others of the same opinion will not be changed no matter how many examples are given. I clearly stated that Billiards and Golf were the toughest out of all sports. I used examples of both sports to elevate why I though they deserved top billing. I also added that Billiards was harder by the slimmest of margins. You would think that in itself would allow for civil discussion but getting slammed on a pool forum by golfers is ridiculous.

How many golf courses have 18 holes of Par three? Another fine example in the argument!

You aren't getting slammed. It is being pointed out that you don't understand why you are wrong. When you fully understand both sides of the argument, then you would see why you are wrong

You have been trying to claim that billiards is mentally on the same level as golf and it is physically tougher than golf. You are never going to win that argument because it is not true. I have explained why to you several times

 

[ugotda8]

Perfect Score

Perfect score in Golf= PAR. This is what the course says is perfection. This is the score that meets the miniumum requirements to determine a good round. It was determined by the course designers in accordance with Length, number of holes, Slope etc.

Yet, we see many great players score better than Par. But, I don't think any of us can determine (without any subjectivity) what determines a perfect round of Golf beyond Par. I am not saying we can't argue this, what I am saying is that we can't argue it without subjectivity.

Now I am sure there is someone out there who would say, Acing every hole would be perfection. But that's not realistic any more than a Pool player stepping to the table and pocketing every single ball with one stroke.

Perfect Score in Pool= Your opponent never gets to the Table during a match.

I would suggest that we see MANY Golfers scoring better than Par, but not so many Pool Players never letting their oppontent to the table during an entire match. It is much more likely for a player to exceed the requirements in Golf than it is to just meet the requirments in Pool.

Imagine while playing a round of Golf where each time you missed a shot, your opponent could walk over and hit your ball in behind a tree, into a divot, up against a porta-potty and so on and make you shoot your next shot from there. Then imagine that you have to sink your putt 9 times from different spots on the green in order to win the hole. Then imagine that it's a race to the hole and if your opponent makes your ball there first, he gets the win.

I guess if this could be done, maybe they would call it Pool too?

I still say we call them Golf and Pool just because Sh** and Fu** were already taken.

I love both games dearly and both are very tough to play!!