This is mostly not true. Any inside english greater than 1/2 of maximum, or any amount of inside english for cuts of 30 degrees or more actually reduce throw.
pj
chgo
Is inside english harder for you to use?
- Thread starter Mikjary
- Start date
pj
chgo
I believe this to be true. Isn't this why you sometimes see balls skid?
Sounds like you think inside english "spins balls out of the hole". Whether or not you consciously mean it this way, I think that's the false "feeling" that many have simply because of their relative unfamiliarity with inside spin (comments about that above). Until they overcome this prejudice they're limiting their game.
pj
chgo
When I see we and our used like this I'm reminded of when the Lone Ranger said, while surrounded by hostile Indians, " Well, Tonto, looks like we are done for".
To which Tonto replied "What you mean WE white man".
You and some may experiences the things you mentioned, but I sure don't.
Would you elaborate on this a bit, Patrick? How would inside spin on thinner cuts actually reduce throw? I'm trying to imagine the mechanics--does inside spin on thin cuts result in a reduction of the interval when the CB and OB are in contact, compared to a hit where there is no spin? If it's not that, then what is happening?
No, skidding is caused by unusually high friction between the balls, usually when a chalk spot on one of the balls happens to be right at the point of contact between the two balls. This happens randomly with or without sidespin (but probably less with sidespin). It's one of the reasons players like to use outside spin (because it reduces or eliminates occasional skid as well as normal throw).
pj
chgo
It's the same reason that a harder hit reduces throw - because the surfaces rub against one another at higher speed. Like when you push a heavy piece of furniture across the floor it takes less energy to keep it going at higher speed - because there's less friction at higher speed.
pj
chgo
P.S. I just noticed your signature line. Hilarious - I see a t-shirt in my future.
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I agree with this. The effects of inside english are *very* predictable, if one takes the time to practice inside english shots and commit the effects to memory. What I tend to find unique about inside english, is that I can be a tiny bit off in my aim, but the shot goes anyway. I found this to be especially true when cutting balls down the rail; the object ball tends to "hug" the cushion better (obviously you have to hit the object ball good), and the slightly-cushion-opposing spin (induced by the cue ball) turns into "pocketing spin" when that object ball hits the opposing chiseled face of the pocket. (I say this when object balls are hit at a decent pocketing speed, by the way; obviously results vary when the object ball is hit much harder or softer.)
For me, anyway, trying to "spin the ball into the pocket" (rather than outright aiming to pocket it with a correct hit) tends to bring factors into the shot that I really don't want there -- e.g. the aforementioned "backwards throw" which can vary a shot greatly with even a minor amount of error, enough to "bobble" the ball.
However, I don't eschew outside english when it *is* the correct shot -- e.g. to pocket a ball, and spin out two rails to pocket the next object ball in the same pocket.
-Sean
Great question Mikjary,
The majority of my practice drills center around Inside English. I've had a history of missing these shots while playing mostly 9 ball.
I found that doing my practice drills using shots that require IE, I began to find that these were also great stroke drills for me. My confidence improved with IE and my Stroke.
I still need to practice these drills as a good warm up. IE is does not come up as much as the rest of the shots and I want to be comfortable and confident when I have to attempt them.
The majority of my practice drills center around Inside English. I've had a history of missing these shots while playing mostly 9 ball.
I found that doing my practice drills using shots that require IE, I began to find that these were also great stroke drills for me. My confidence improved with IE and my Stroke.
I still need to practice these drills as a good warm up. IE is does not come up as much as the rest of the shots and I want to be comfortable and confident when I have to attempt them.
Excellent post. If people want more info, with videos and instructional articles, on these topics, see:
Regards,
Dave
If people want more info (and illustrations) on this topic, see my February '07 Billiards Digest article.
Regards,
Dave
There can be a certain degree of "self correction" using outside english. I wouldn't label it as a myth.
Given an initial alignment and cue angle that would send the CB to the GB location with perfect gearing english, if you hit the CB slightly further away from center (more outside spin), the effects of the added squirt and throw tend to cancel each other out.
You don't get that with inside english, in general. On an IE shot (with a decent cut angle), if you hit the CB with slightly more inside, then the affects of the added squirt and reduced throw compound. Throw gets reduce because you have greater spin and a thinner cut.
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I like the softer hit I get when I use outside spin, especially down the rails. I like to use inside when, as Sean said, I need to shape on a ball on the same rail as the ball I pocket. It can get you in and out of tight spaces with quick spin and a softer stroke off of a rail.
The more you use it, the easier it becomes to use. My patterns work more with outside or no spin, but I like to hold the cue ball at times with inside english. If you use inside off of a rail, and you've got a little angle to work with, instead of killing the cue ball you can get a little more rebound off of the rail. Instead of pounding the shot with center ball, you can add a bit of inside spin and add a little more distance to create better shape.
Best,
Mike
The more you use it, the easier it becomes to use. My patterns work more with outside or no spin, but I like to hold the cue ball at times with inside english. If you use inside off of a rail, and you've got a little angle to work with, instead of killing the cue ball you can get a little more rebound off of the rail. Instead of pounding the shot with center ball, you can add a bit of inside spin and add a little more distance to create better shape.
Best,
Mike
"We" humans use spatial relations and subliminal keys to perform some tasks. Like cutting balls into pockets that are not in the shot picture.... I'm not sure what you Ducks do.....
Unless I walk around and sight every shot I have to depend on my brain knowing where the pocket is and subliminal keys like the rail, distance from the rail and distance from the pocket....
If I do not use the proper info and use the center of the pocket on thinner cuts I will cut shots into the rail.
I have came across this in topic in print and in at least 1 teaching video... After paying attention to my own game and watching lots of others I have concluded that most balls are undercut and I tend to think this has a whole lot to do with it.......
Aiming cuts down the rail is easiest for me when I visualize the shot as if the rail isn't there (after using the rail to help me visualize the direction to the pocket). Otherwise I tend to be "rail spooked", which affects how I see everything, including the effects of english.
pj
chgo
Well then, let me clear....
I do not have a tendency to aim at the short side of the pocket on cut shots. I aim where I need to put the OB and that is center pocket. But you seem to imply by using "we" I do. You can not speak for what I do or anyone else.
I do not use the back of the pocket as any form of reference in aiming and for you to imply that you know how my brain works, by the use of "our", in shot making is far fetched.
I can hit outside, down on the CB and it not curve it one bit to the OB and then again I can. It all in the stroke. One stroke doesn't fit all shots as some would lead to believe.
I often wonder at times after reading about shaft deflection, squirt, swerve and having to adjust for them if we are playing the same game. If you got all that going on, you are hitting way to hard, way harder than you need too.
Somethings that not being considered in all this is the weight of the balls, the fact the one ball is moving and one is not at time of contact, the angle of cut, the cloth, the distance from CB to OB, the distances of the OB to pocket, the various amounts of traction that can be created between the OB and CB.
Me ain't in any we.
I actually disagree with not one, but both of those reasons. The first one seems easy.... given the random nature of the next ball you are playing position for, i'm not sure how one could ever say we need the cb to go places using outside english more often.
The second one is more complicated, but is hitting softer always an advantage? No. and some people are more inclined to hit balls firmer as well. Also, hits are fuller using outside, which will normally slow down the cb, at least before it hits a rail.
This is a complex problem that I think is best to solve backwards. Virtually every top player uses outside spin to shoot many 9 ball shots, especially ~30 to 40 or so degree cut angles. Knowing this, there is simply no way you could convince me this doesn't help. But then, it even makes sense..... miss this mentioned cut slightly on the thick side with outside, since thick hits get "spun in" a little more than thin ones, this thick hit can result in a pocketed ball. Hit is a little thin, and it is not spun in as much and takes a more natural path, and you have pocketed it again. I think it especially helps on those slightly thick hits. THEN, as noted previously, there is a "buffer" on your cb hit accuracy, meaning you can be slightly off and the effects will counteract, at least to a greater extent than with center or inside.
Those two aspects in concert with one another leave no doubt in my mind. And the best part is, pool is all about confidence. Even if i'm wrong, i'm still more confident shooting this way because of the listed reasons -- so it is yet an even bigger pocket.
Further, I would be willing to bet my bottom dollar, all things being equal, if one guy shot nothing but inside his entire life, and the other guy outside, the guy using outside would pocket more balls. I don't think it is familiarity at all, but this is conjecture. But ask all the top pros this same question/scenario, and i'd bet most of them would think like me.
This rule of thumb is true but speed and english will still have an effect. As you slice a thinner cut less speed and more english can be applied to enhance the throw. The effect never goes away its reduced by the curvature of the ball. This applies for both IS and OS english.
The effect of the cue ball on the object ball has three main fractures.
1 the amount of object ball contacted.
As you decrees the amount of contact area the effect of 2 and 3 are decreased. Of course on a straight in shot slip "speed" has zero effect. As the contact point moves around the curve of the ball slip increases to the maximum then decreases to the very edge but it never goes away. This is an important point. Slip has zero effect on a straight in shot and increases to a maximum then decreases. English on a dead straight shot has a maximum effect and decreases as you follow the curve around the edge. Slip and english don't follow the same curve.
2 the speed of the cue ball.
A slower ball enhances the effect 1 and 3. A slower ball will slip the OB more and enhance the english.
Faster ball decreases the effect 1 and 3. Slip and the effect of english are both reduced.
3 the amount of english applied.
More english is required or the effect of english is reduced when 1 "the cut" or 2 the "speed" are increased.
Less english is required or english has a greater effect when 1 "the cut" or 2 the "speed" are decreased.
Its true the less the contact point between the CB and OB the less effect 2 and 3 have. But by reducing 2 "speed" and increasing 3 "english" a thin cut can have just as much effect. If this was not so Bob Jewett's impossible cut could not be made. As your CB speed is decreased the effect of english on the OB is increased. If you remove 3 "english" you still have to deal with the combination of 1 and 2 and visa versa.
Look at the amount of english Bob is using on the thinnest cut possible.
This shot could not be made with a center ball stroke.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaSKh1PSqok
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