Is inside english harder for you to use?

[Patrick Johnson]

bud02:
For you it is a rule of thumb. IS english has no effect. Your statement below.

That's not what I said. I said the effect it usually has is to reduce throw.

IS english certainly does induce slip but you reach a point on the outside of the OB that it has a minimal effect where IS english acts like "speed" reducing slip, BUT IT'S AT THE EXTREME EDGE OF THE BALL.

I guess by "slip" you must mean throw, although it's kinda hard to tell. If you're saying that inside spin only reduces throw with extremely thin hits, then you're mistaken - it happens on any cut angle with more than about 50% of maximum sidespin and on any cut angle of 30 degrees or more with any sidespin (as I said in the beginning).

I think your looking for a disagreement.

I disagree with your statements - you made them.

pj
chgo

 

[donny mills]

Low deflection shafts make inside English shots so much easier. It's almost like cheating.

 

[Mikjary]

I learned to use inside english (IE) by setting up on the shot with a vertical hit on the cue ball (no side spin). I would then pivot the back of my cue until the tip pointed to the spot on the cue ball I wanted to hit, left or right. Then I stroke the ball. Players that use back hand english do a similar pivot, but during the stroke.

It isn't a parallel english alignment and works for outside spin, also. After a period of time you automatically position your cue for IE. Later, your brain picks up the angles associated with the movement and learns by rote/repetition. I like this method because you stroke straight through the cue ball, yet you gain some of the benefits of back hand english.

Best,
Mike

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I learned to use inside english (IE) by setting up on the shot with a vertical hit on the cue ball (no side spin). I would then pivot the back of my cue until the tip pointed to the spot on the cue ball I wanted to hit, left or right. Then I stroke the ball. Players that use back hand english do a similar pivot, but during the stroke.

I think both versions are backhand english, which just means to apply english by moving your back hand, either before or during the stroke. The version that moves the back hand during the stroke is sometimes distinguished by calling it "dynamic" or "swooping" backhand english.

I like this method because you stroke straight through the cue ball, yet you gain some of the benefits of back hand english.

I think your method is definitely the best version of backhand english - you get all the benefits of it with none of the drawbacks of a swooping stroke. Considering that there's just about always some "feel" involved (because of swerve and/or because your bridge probably isn't right at your pivot point), I think a swooping stroke makes it much more likely that you'll miss shots.

pj
chgo

 

[TATE]

I believe the main difference between using inside and outside spin is familiarity. We naturally use outside spin more because (1) the places we want the CB to go are more often in the outside spin direction (because we're usually shooting into a corner) and (2) we can usually hit more softly with outside to move the CB the same distance (because the natural carom angle is usually in the outside spin direction).

This built-in preference for outside spin reinforces false feelings like the "helping english" and "self correcting" myths. In fact, since throw tends to correct for squirt but throw is reduced with outside spin, you have to adjust your aim more with outside than with inside, and a shot with "gearing" english is more sensitive to small spin errors.

pj
chgo

Exactly. It's because we don't use it as much and there is no question that it gives most players at most levels problems. It just doesn't look right in our mind's eye because we're not familiar enough with it.

Another thing is a lot of inside shots are going against the natural direction and momentum of the cue ball, so I think that causes a lot of players to jab at these shots trying to force an action instead of just stroking them and letting the spin carry the ball.

A smooth stroke is first thing I would suggest . I have also found that it helps to line up the shot while standing up visualizing the cue positioned on the side of the cue ball you intend to hit.

Chris

 

[TATE]

Low deflection shafts make inside English shots so much easier. It's almost like cheating.

Donny,

Patrick plays with one of the lowest squirt shafts on earth, and he made it himself.

Chris

 

[Mikjary]

Exactly. It's because we don't use it as much and there is no question that it gives most players at most levels problems. It just doesn't look right in our mind's eye because we're not familiar enough with it.

Another thing is a lot of inside shots are going against the natural direction and momentum of the cue ball, so I think that causes a lot of players to jab at these shots trying to force an action instead of just stroking them and letting the spin carry the ball.

A smooth stroke is first thing I would suggest . I have also found that it helps to line up the shot while standing up visualizing the cue positioned on the side of the cue ball you intend to hit.

Chris

Along with a smooth stroke (on all shots!), a consistent stroke is an absolute must. If you punch at a ball on one shot, set the same shot up and shoot with a smoother delivery, you'll get two different reactions from the cue ball.

Using IE on the first shot, the cue ball will probably squirt away from the object ball and you will over cut it. We are all familiar with this problem. We lined up correctly, only to find that because we punched the cue ball instead of stroking it, we cut the ball too thin. Famous IE miss!

The second shot, with a smooth stroke, allows us to control the squirt and swerve to hit our contact point. We also achieve a more predictable, natural cue ball path. Less speed is necessary and cue ball travel is improved when it contacts a rail. Unless you're playing nine ball on a bar box with the big rock, IE works better with a smooth stroke.

Best,
Mike

 

[Mikjary]

I think both versions are backhand english, which just means to apply english by moving your back hand, either before or during the stroke. The version that moves the back hand during the stroke is sometimes distinguished by calling it "dynamic" or "swooping" backhand english.


I think your method is definitely the best version of backhand english - you get all the benefits of it with none of the drawbacks of a swooping stroke. Considering that there's just about always some "feel" involved (because of swerve and/or because your bridge probably isn't right at your pivot point), I think a swooping stroke makes it much more likely that you'll miss shots.

pj
chgo

To each his own. I played with a world champion who would twist his whole body on certain spin shots. I always wondered if I could learn anything from this guy, but I gave up because he was so unorthodox. I just couldn't be a human windmill and feel good about my game. He never missed, though.:smile:

Best,
Mike

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Donny,

Patrick plays with one of the lowest squirt shafts on earth, and he made it himself.

Chris

I only designed my shaft. Ed Young made it. It's pretty simple: very narrow tip (10mm), very small ferrule (3/16"), hollow first 6", conical taper (for stiffness). It's the lowest squirt shaft I've seen, but there may be some that beat it. I've been trying to miss a shot with it for years.

pj
chgo

 

[The Chinchilla]

I don't believe it's that random, because as I said, we're most often shooting at a corner pocket with the OB in the general vicinity of that pocket. And we most often want to get the CB to the center area of the table for the next shot (usually so we can be once again shooting toward a corner pocket). This is usually most easily accomplished with outside spin, either going one rail off the side rail or two rails off the end rail. I'll bet if you kept track you'd see that's true for you too.


We're not talking about always, and we're not talking about extremes of harder/softer. In most cases, because we use it more often and because it's usually not necessary to hit it as hard, outside english shots are hit closer to our "comfort" speed. Again, if you kept track I'll bet you'd see that this is true. I'd be interested in your results either way.

pj
chgo

I appreciate the input. If you could help me understand your position by answering a question.... are you saying you feel inside english, in general, is just as easy to use as outside (in terms of pocketing balls)? Edit: I think the real question I want to ask, you're saying inside is just as good to pocket balls theoretically as outside?

But just to briefly address the above, I think inside could effectively be used MANY times going to the end rail and then straight to the center. And actually this is a shorter path as well. Also, this inside english "line" seems like it would be better at holding an angle, as opposed to the 2 rail outside position route where you could get straight in easier (speed more of a factor). But we still use the outside. I don't think players would go to these lengths to use outside if there wasn't a serious advantage. But anyway, i'm very curious to see what you say to that first question, I hope i didn't miss it and you have already answered it.

 

[pdcue]

I like to spin balls into the hole with outside english. I have no problem aiming them, but have to think about my alignment when I use inside spin. I have a few different methods that work, but why is inside/reverse spin so much harder to use? Players even buy LD shafts to eliminate this problem.

I hear other people say they only use it when it's absolutely necessary. I use it a lot, but have to stop and think about it before I use it. I guess I could use it all the time and the uncertainty might disappear. Then again, maybe not. Everybody's different. Do you shy away from inside spin?

Best,
Mike

From the pearls before swine department:

Here's a thought - if you want to master inside english, PRACTICE shots
using... inside english.

I personally sort of stumbled into competence. There was a time when I
played a good deal of 3 cushion. As I learned the game, I got to be fairly
good at cutting balls extremely thin with a ton of inside. 3C players do
this all the time - as it becomes running english off the first rail.

If you are not lucky enough to have access to a Carom table - there is
always the option of practice which, contrary to popular opinion, does
not really cause cancer after all.

I am far from being a champion, but, inside or outside, makes no
difference to me.

Dale

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...are you saying you feel inside english, in general, is just as easy to use as outside (in terms of pocketing balls)?

Yes.

Edit: I think the real question I want to ask, you're saying inside is just as good to pocket balls theoretically as outside?

Yes.

I think inside could effectively be used MANY times going to the end rail and then straight to the center. And actually this is a shorter path as well. Also, this inside english "line" seems like it would be better at holding an angle, as opposed to the 2 rail outside position route where you could get straight in easier (speed more of a factor).

I agree with all of this, and probably do it more than most. But it's less common than outside spin for position.

But we still use the outside. I don't think players would go to these lengths to use outside if there wasn't a serious advantage.

I don't think players are "going to lengths" to use outside - to the contrary, I think they're taking the path of least resistance for getting CB position.

pj
chgo

 

[Mitchxout]

Anyone familiar with Hal Mix? According to Hal, when using IE you simply aim the center of your tip at the point of aim on OB. Bingo, the ball goes in every time.

 

[jsp]

Edit: I think the real question I want to ask, you're saying inside is just as good to pocket balls theoretically as outside?

Yes.

If the "theory" includes the effects of throw and friction, then your answer is false.

When using OE, it is always possible to obtain perfect gearing english such that the effects of friction can be completely taken out of the equation. For IE, it is impossible to ever achieve gearing english (by defintion), so friction will ALWAYS be a factor on all IE shots.

 

[duckie]

I noticed some say they use spin to make balls, I use spin to get position mostly.

Granted there are some shots that you can use throw to make the shot, but for the most part spin is for position play first, ball pocketing second. At least for me.

Here is a video using inside to do what I call "going downtown" meaning I got to go from end of the table to the other. Also notice how the CB does cross the center of the table.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FLIGvK7v3E

Inside is also good for killing the angle off a rail and even reversing it. Here is a example of reversing the angle off a rail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14wocGSQsYE&NR=1

To really excel at position play, use of inside is a must.

 

[Jimbojim]

If the position route requires inside english, that's what I'll use. Same thing for outside english. No need to characterize a shot harder than the other.

No matter if we hit centerball, topspin, draw (we do have to change our aim because of gear effect) or any of those three combined with outside of inside english, we still have to be precise anyway regardless of the shot at hand.

 

[The Chinchilla]

Yes.


Yes.


I agree with all of this, and probably do it more than most. But it's less common than outside spin for position.


I don't think players are "going to lengths" to use outside - to the contrary, I think they're taking the path of least resistance for getting CB position.

pj
chgo

Ok, I don't really have a good comeback to all this that you haven't already addressed, other than I think one way, and you another

I will say though, if inside was in fact just as easy to use, I feel we'd see at least a handful of players (or at the very least one or two) favor it when position wasn't an issue (eg 9 ball shots). Yet we have NEVER seen that.... and I realize you have addressed reasons as to why that may be the case as well. But I tend to be trusting of players' instincts and ability to perceive benefits while at the table, and I feel this is very strong evidence that points to outside being beneficial. In other words, the players figure this out, regardless of position routes, especially considering the first thing we really learn is to pocket balls playing say 8 ball (= not so position dependent). Anyway.... regards, and thanks for the discussion.

 

[Mikjary]

I played some nine ball and found that when I use inside english, it's about 20% as often as outside english. About a five to one ratio. That's on a nine footer. On a bar box that changes to about three to one. If the bar box has a heavy cue ball or the big rock, that may change to two to one.

We all understand that we'll use what it takes, inside or outside spin, to get shape on the next shot. When presented with a couple of routes, we may opt for one over the other depending on our comfort level.

Outside spin has a level of speed control I use all the time. When I need to use inside spin, I simply fire away after I figure out my alignment. I just don't like to turn the cue ball loose. So my comfort zone is with outside spin.

I broke the hundred ball barrier back in the eighties. I quit for twenty years and have started to look at things like inside spin to get ideas from you guys. I appreciate all the relative comments and don't care if we get off on a tangent. It's all pool related.

I would like to hear more about inside english and its effects from straight ins to thin cuts. The physics is interesting and what it does to the throw component. I'm sure there are parameters when using inside high, center, and low spin and the effects speed has on them.

Best,
Mike

 

[JB Cases]

From the pearls before swine department:

Here's a thought - if you want to master inside english, PRACTICE shots
using... inside english.

I personally sort of stumbled into competence. There was a time when I
played a good deal of 3 cushion. As I learned the game, I got to be fairly
good at cutting balls extremely thin with a ton of inside. 3C players do
this all the time - as it becomes running english off the first rail.

If you are not lucky enough to have access to a Carom table - there is
always the option of practice which, contrary to popular opinion, does
not really cause cancer after all.

I am far from being a champion, but, inside or outside, makes no
difference to me.

Dale

From the swine department: We (or more precisely, I) tried the practice with inside english until my arm is about to fall off method. There are still people alive who could testify for a small fee that they have seen me at the pool room for two to four hours at a time practicing shots with inside trying to learn how to spin the ball properly and consistently. And I did learn it but never got the consistency part down.

UNTIL I learned Backhand English. Now I don't want to get into the physics of BHE. I just want to offer my personal testimony that it was a godsend when it comes to inside english.

Now when I practice the consistency is there and my finesse is SO MUCH BETTER. So much so that I often spin the ball TOO MUCH an bring it to what appears to be impossible places from where the ball positions were.

So for this swine the pearl wasn't simply to practice using inside. The pearl ended up being to change how I apply spin. That opened up a whole new aspect of the game to me by taking me well beyond what all previous NON-BHE practice had brought me to.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

... if inside was in fact just as easy to use, I feel we'd see at least a handful of players (or at the very least one or two) favor it when position wasn't an issue (eg 9 ball shots). Yet we have NEVER seen that.... and I realize you have addressed reasons as to why that may be the case as well.

One thing we haven't touched on is the widespread belief that outside spin is best for shots where position isn't needed (like 9 ball shots, as you said) because it eliminates the possibility of skid. Unfortunately, this often gets misinterpreted as "outside is useful to eliminate ordinary throw on cut shots" and as a result many players end up using outside on way too many shots, compromising their position play and making aiming more difficult than necessary for shots that would have worked with no sidespin.

pj
chgo