is it advantageous for the cb to leave the slate during the break shot?

[measureman]

There is an intimidation factor too. A crack that will make your ears ring, the cue ball hitting the light or getting very close, It certainly seems like you have a lot more power than the other person.

Most of the time pool is very much a mental game. A big break, taking ridiculously tough shots early in the session and not batting an eye when they fall, these things can inspire doubt in the other player's mind. Once doubt sets in, the writing is on the wall!

Hu

Years ago in my prime I would shoot at anything I could see in hopes I would make it and put a little fear in my opponent.
It would work well in one pocket if you fired in a real tough shot,the other guy has to think where am I going to leave the cue ball next time?

 

[FranCrimi]

I assume he means a little forward rotation is usually needed to stop the CB from rolling too far back toward the head of the table.

pj
chgo

Sorry, Patrick, but how does that answer my question of why not a stun shot? Doesn't a stun shot accomplish that?

 

[FranCrimi]

I break with a half tip below center ball and a slightly elevated cue.
I try to park the rock about center table.
Sometimes it does just that.
And sometimes not.

That doesn't always work out so well, because as I'm sure you know, the 1 ball can easily wind up on the top rail, which is why it's important to be able to read how the table is breaking from various angles before deciding on a particular break style.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Sorry, Patrick, but how does that answer my question of why not a stun shot? Doesn't a stun shot accomplish that?

I believe he means that since the CB rebounds toward the breaker it takes a little forward rotation to counteract ("brake") that momentum.

pj
chgo

 

[FranCrimi]

I believe he means that since the CB rebounds toward the breaker it takes a little forward rotation to counteract ("brake") that momentum.

pj
chgo

LOL. No. Not buying it. You can certainly stop the cue ball with a stun hit or even a tip below center in a very respectable area. I do it all the time. You don't need a tip of top spin to break the momentum. It might work, but it's not needed. And at that speed, a stroke error on the top spin end will lose the cb forward.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

LOL. No. Not buying it. You can certainly stop the cue ball with a stun hit or even a tip below center in a very respectable area. I do it all the time. You don't need a tip of top spin to break the momentum. It might work, but it's not needed. And at that speed, a stroke error on the top spin end will lose the cb forward.

I don't have an opinion about it - just trying to interpret for you what Dave probably meant.

pj
chgo

 

[The_JV]

Most of the time pool is very much a mental game. A big break, taking ridiculously tough shots early in the session and not batting an eye when they fall, these things can inspire doubt in the other player's mind. Once doubt sets in, the writing is on the wall!

Oh ya definitely... I remember playing one of the young guns in league a couple years ago, and of course I'm living off my legend from back when my eyes were decent. I totally screwed up a shot and fluked a crazy a safety, but sold it like it was planned. The kid was crushed and I cruised to a win.

When it was over he came up to me, and asked how I even saw that angle for the safety. Told him it was a complete fluke, and the actual skill was in the acting after the fact. He learnt 2 lessons that day. First, that I'm no where near as good as people say. Second, that I didn't need to be as long as those people continue to believe I am...

 

[evergruven]

He's referring to a power break. That's an important distinction, because today's players have evolved in breaking and have developed different break options that depend on how the table and balls are responding. I don't disagree that it's a bad idea to shoot angled down on the cb during a power break. That's the easiest way to jump the cb off the table. However, I'm a little confused about his line about using "a slight follow stroke" in order to achieve the cb stopping near the center of the table. Is he counting on the cb to hit the head ball twice?

so in your opinion, is it ever a *good* idea to shoot angled down on the cb on any break shot? if so, why?

 

[Bob Jewett]

Sorry, Patrick, but how does that answer my question of why not a stun shot? Doesn't a stun shot accomplish that?

For a solid rack and a stun shot, the cue ball will bounce back off the rack farther than the center of the table. Usually you can see that on perfect break shots the cue ball has follow that spins it to a stop as it bounces off the rack.

 

[FranCrimi]

For a solid rack and a stun shot, the cue ball will bounce back off the rack farther than the center of the table. Usually you can see that on perfect break shots the cue ball has follow that spins it to a stop as it bounces off the rack.

Well, not for me it doesn't. I guess force is a factor as well.

 

[FranCrimi]

so in your opinion, is it ever a *good* idea to shoot angled down on the cb on any break shot? if so, why?

Not if you're breaking hard. First there's the high probability of jumping the cb off the table. Second you can lose precious speed and force as the cb bounces it's way to the pack. I recommend that if you do angle down your cue, you experiment and do it very slightly. One time when I was teaching a group and explaining the dangers of shooting an angled down break shot, I got the brilliant idea to show them how the cb jumps without the balls, just hitting it hard from the head string directly into the bottom rail. I hit it way too hard and the cb bouced into the air off the bottom rail, flew back over the table and hit me square in the chin and knocked me down. I was fine, except for the bump and bruise, not to mention the bruise to my ego, but they got the idea why it's a bad idea after they all stopped laughing.

 

[evergruven]

the cb bouced into the air off the bottom rail, flew back over the table and hit me square in the chin and knocked me down. I was fine, except for the bump and bruise, not to mention the bruise to my ego, but they got the idea why it's a bad idea after they all stopped laughing.

whew..if "experience is the best teacher," I can only salute your dedication, fran
..and am glad you're still conscious). thanks for the reply-

 

[Bob Jewett]

Well, not for me it doesn't. I guess force is a factor as well.

Does the cue ball stop dead for you when you hit the head ball full?

 

[The_JV]

so in your opinion, is it ever a *good* idea to shoot angled down on the cb on any break shot? if so, why?

Not if you're breaking hard. First there's the high probability of jumping the cb off the table. Second you can lose precious speed and force as the cb bounces it's way to the pack. I recommend that if you do angle down your cue, you experiment and do it very slightly.

I am not an instructor, and I will not pretend to have the experience Fran does. However as someone who's broken a gajillion racks over the decades I may offer some insight as well.

The key to breaking with the hop is exactly what Fran is suggesting to do. The angle to which you hit the CB with your cue is fairly slight (required angle is power dependant). Keep in mind the goal here. The idea is to have the CB in the air when it strikes the head ball in the rack. How much 'hop' you will generate will be a combination of the speed to which the CB is travelling and the how much higher the CB is relative to the OB. The amount of bounce the CB will have is also relative to the power of your stroke.

Now my break shot is relatively weak in power when compared to other players my speed. It's still stronger than most (most = everyone that plays pool), but weaker than the guys I compete against or above my speed. I say that because I really don't have an issue with launching the CB off the table. You can equate that to either a lack of power or my ability to hit the head ball squarely. I have no issues generating a hopping break with my bridge hand on the table. Again it's all about cue angle relative to power. Do produce this type of break bridging off the long rail I need to place the CB near the rail so I can generate enough striking angle. Unfortunately, this shortens my stroke a good deal, so I suffer from a lack of power.

While you do indeed lose the transmission of CB power into the rack if the CB is in the air, (the hopping action is ~equal to that loss), I would struggle to believe that the amount of lost power/speed while the CB is bouncing to the rack is more than inconsquential. Certainly a loss, but nothing to batt an eye at imo.

 

[FranCrimi]

Does the cue ball stop dead for you when you hit the head ball full?

If you mean a full hit as breaking from the spot, I don't recall ever setting the cue ball on the spot to break that way in competition. Starting position of 6-8 inches off the spot and farther out --- sure. Many times. Gene Nagy was a master at it. He could get that cb to stop on a dime from various locations along the head string.

 

[Bob Jewett]

If you mean a full hit as breaking from the spot, I don't recall ever setting the cue ball on the spot to break that way in competition. Starting position of 6-8 inches off the spot and farther out --- sure. Many times. Gene Nagy was a master at it. He could get that cb to stop on a dime from various locations along the head string.

The bounce-back effect I was thinking of is most noticeable when breaking from near the spot and at 10-ball or 8-ball. Here are some good examples showing that the cue ball has immediate backward speed after contact with the head ball.

The break at 19:30 in particular shows the bounce-back with follow to kill the cue ball in the middle of the table.
At 9-ball the effect is less and from the side rail it is even less, but I think it is still there. The top players are now using the cut break a lot so it is hard to tell whether the cue ball comes off the rack along the 90-degree line.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The idea is to have the CB in the air when it strikes the head ball in the rack.

Why?

pj
chgo

 

[The_JV]

Why?

To generate the vertical hop when breaking.

Did you read the rest of the paragraph..?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The idea is to have the CB in the air when it strikes the head ball in the rack.

Why?

To generate the vertical hop when breaking.

Why?

pj
chgo

 

[The_JV]

The bounce-back effect I was thinking of is most noticeable when breaking from near the spot and at 10-ball or 8-ball. Here are some good examples showing that the cue ball has immediate backward speed after contact with the head ball.

This morning I purposely broke several 9 ball racks from near the middle (-12" to +12"). All of them were with a full stun shot on the CB (center ball). All of them resulted in the same bounce-back effect that you would expect. The return distance was relative to the amount of power in the break. I purposely hit the shot lighter than I normally would to ensure a correct CB strike.

A half tip of follow with mildy aggressive downward cueing angle parks the CB ~12" from the head ball.

Used my hardly used set of Aramith Tournaments, and hit the breaks using both my flat phenolic tip breaker and soft tipped player.